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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:02PM

Quoting from Steve Bloor's blog; here's the link:

This information comes from Grant Palmer, who is discussing some meetings he had with a Returned MP and a GA (a 70). Apparently they now meet monthly.

"He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.

"When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “my interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church. He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church."

It'll be interesting to follow this blog and see where these meetings might lead. A MILLION DOLLAR GIFT?? No WONDER we call it the LD$ church!! Apparently they have the "best apostles money can buy."

I for one have always thought that the GAs don't really believe in Mormonism. A good friend of mine was a "high up" in the church accounting department during the Spencer Kimball years. I asked him for his opinion about whether the GAs really believed in the church. He rolled his eyes and said, "Of course they don't." That was shocking to me at the time, but now it makes sense, especially in light of the above account given by Grant Palmer.

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Posted by: Boilermaker ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:06PM

Did your accountant friend give any reason for his statement? Or was he just using his own unbelief as his reason for believing the GAs didn't believe?

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Posted by: nickname ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:22PM


"He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on 'my interactions with them.'”

This seems very, very weak evidence on which to base such a claim.

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:39PM

Of course, it's OPINION, and is stated as such.

The GAs are more and more closed-mouthed about doctrine & history. Why?

People who've rubbed shoulders with them are allowed to have opinions. I'd say those opinions should be weighed along with all the blather that GAs spew out. To dismiss them might be to miss the boat.

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Posted by: nickname ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:44PM

We're just wondering what those opinions are based on. Could you be more specific than "some interactions he had with them?" Or is that all you know or can share?

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 03:00PM

I wish I could be more specific. My accountant friend has long since retired, and is now in his 80s. I know him well, and he's an honest man.

When he answered my question (which was about 10 years ago), he was obviously speaking about not just once, but numerous times he'd interacted with Spencer Kimball and other GAs, over a period of years.

I didn't ask him for any direct quotes. I'll try contacting him again and see if he can give me any.

But again, in my opinion, his opinion counts for a whole lot more than an outsider's.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 08:32PM

I wish "insiders" like your friend would be willing to make some kind of official public statement so we can have it on record. It would be great for building some kind of history/study of the inner workings of the church.

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Posted by: canadianfriend ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:13PM

A million dollars is pocket change to the morg. So that part is believable.

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Posted by: Suckafoo ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:32PM

I don't see how it can be a possibility that among all those men there are not at least some who don't believe. It stands to reason there are serious things holding them in there with a vow not to speak up about it. I wish among them the noble ones would rise up and speak out. Unless they are convinced the people need the church and therefore let's continue promoting the good and diminishing the bad or pretending it isn't there.
In this general conference last weekend I noticed many speeches geared around love and forgiveness as well as belief versus knowing. They seem to be trying to shift more away from the old platform. I can't entirely recall all they said in conference; only have this funny feeling lately even in the ward there is some underlying tide or current. My innocent family can't recognize a thing is different, and they think everyone among them in the wards believes. I, on the other hand, have developed a bit of exmo radar. My radar may be off, but I even think with all their claims that Holland doubts as does my Sunday school teacher. A hunch that isn't worth much but I do recognize things shifting and changing that my family doesn't seem to be able to identify. The more adamant they become of how true it is and all the persuading of the people is revealing in and of itself. It's like someone who feels they have to go around announcing how happy they are to everyone rather than just being happy.

There are some people of late such as John Dehlin and Grant Palmer as well as Anointed One and others who were thought of very well that have shed light on things and come out to speak about it. I'm sure the presidency can't keep claiming these people sinners as the excuse for leaving. If they are reading published works once considered anti, that is good news. How could Holland not take to heart the letter AO wrote? He could be in a secret faith crisis. We may never know.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2013 02:42PM by Suckafoo.

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Posted by: Satan Claus ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 02:52PM

This piece was discussed here yesterday. There is some debate as to the validity of the piece.

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Posted by: Satan Claus ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 03:45PM

I just got confirmation from a *very* reliable source that this is definitely from Grant.

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Posted by: Brethren,adieu ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 03:35PM

Put this information together with the whole Hoffman affair. Gordon B Hinkster purchased the salamander letter because he thought the letter was real. He & Oaks tried to cover it up. Its plausible,to me, at least, that the Gas don't believe. You can only get so far into an organization built on a fraud before you discover the fraud for yourself.

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Posted by: scooter ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 06:36PM

the downtrodden look of second year associates after they discover they're now criminals, but too deep into the bucks to do anything about it.

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Posted by: squeebee ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 06:48PM

Yes, it's an interesting thought...

My normal logic was: If Hinkley was truly what he is, how did the spirit not tell him it was a fake?

The new logic is: If Hinkley truly believed, he should have doubted the letter, since he knew that the official story of the first vision was true.

But now: Hinkley must not have fully believed, which is why Hoffman had credibility in his eyes.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 03:36PM

I was thinking--whenever I'm around someone who believes in mormonism, I am very aware that they do usually by what they say. There is no doubt in my mind my aunt believes--every e-mail she sends me contains things about mormonism. When I talk to my daughter--everything she says and does shows me she believes in mormonism.

Everyone I know on fb who is mormon, somewhere along the line--some almost daily--I am very aware they believe in mormonism.

I think if someone spends enough time around the GAs, they would have an idea if they really do believe.

I was rather amazed by Steve Benson's post about testimony building experiences that Oaks and Maxwell told him. They were so WEAK. That was a real eye-opener to me. Then watching Hinckley's funeral--nothing awe inspiring there either.

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Posted by: Mr. Neutron ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 03:45PM

If what this article says is true, then Holland's talk where he held up a copy of The Book of Mormon, claiming that it was with Hyrum Smith when he was killed, is ten times more damning. I lost a lot of respect for the General Authorities years ago. I can't believe I've just lost a little more.

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Posted by: Crathes ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 04:59PM

The original piece is posted on MormonThink on Grant's homepage.

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Posted by: openeyes ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 09:02PM

Has anyone been able to verify this webpage is legit? Or, perhaps it is hacked or fraudulent?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2013 09:11PM by openeyes.

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Posted by: MormonThinker ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 11:48PM

openeyes Wrote:
> Has anyone been able to verify this webpage is
> legit? Or, perhaps it is hacked or fraudulent?

Grant gave it to me himself. He first told me about it in October right after it happened. He was stunned and not expecting that. Neither was I.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 06:51PM

I bet if a GA "outed" himself and resigned, the next GC would go on as if nothing had happened, with perhaps a couple of veeeeery oblique and almost throwaway references to it that would go right over the head of most TBM's...

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 08:14PM

I spent the healthy part of two days escorting Nail Lick Anderson around Rome while I was on my mission. He was woefully unversed in the history of the Greco-Roman civilization and just as ignorant about its religions. At one point when meeting with a Monsignor he was told about three times what the Catholic doctrine of The Communion of the Saints was and afterward he still asked me if I understood. Of course I agreed with his ignorant stance because I thought his shit smelt like roses. Looking back he was either to stupid or willfully blind to the issues of doctrine and history to figure out that they were fake.

My other encounter in Rome was in passing with Dallen Huge Hoax. My impression was that he is an asshole. I'm don't doubt for a second that he is in on the fraud.

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Posted by: anonfornow ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 08:19PM

If this is true, this is very interesting and fascinating information.

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Posted by: michaelff (not logged in) ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 08:25PM

but they use mind tricks on themselves to continue to believe.

I see too many very intelligent, well read mormons who cling to their conclude otherwise.

The mind is powerful and it is able to adjust itself into a massive pretzel in order to help it's host maintain status quo.

When the family, prestige, business, money, comfort, routine, are all at stake...and are more important to you than truth (which they are for many)

you will believe almost anything.

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Posted by: deco ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 08:44PM

He would be a good one for the feds to offer leniency if/when they bust LDS Inc for tax evasion.

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Posted by: GetTheLedZepOut ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 08:47PM

I'd sure love to see more info on this. I had posted this past weekend regarding how widespread the fraud is known.

Lots of interesting speculation but real verifiable proof is understandably elusive.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 08:52PM

I don't know that we will get the real story about this for some time. If you'll remember in the 70s and 80s the Catholic church pushed aside the true nature of the abuse scandals, saying that they were fully aware and were taking steps to correct it. Not until the turn of the century were they forced to address it by the preponderance of testimony against them. LDS inc will most likely fall in the same manner.

They can sidestep the first accusations of willful fraud, by saying that they are the speculative rantings of a disaffected member. At a certain point the abundance of testimony against them will be impossible to ignore. I just hope that it is sooner than later.

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Posted by: GetTheLedZepOut ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 09:19PM

Sad thing is...
Irrefutable proof could surface and most TBMs would still clutch to the crazy devotion to the illusion.

Wait a minute, it has, and they do.

I honestly can't imagine anything that could appen to shake my parents into reality. I seriously think the first presidency could all stand up in GC and say it is all a fraud and my folks would immediately start to speculate about how satan was able to sway such choice ones away.

THAT is why the core believers are so hard to get to even look at another source for truth. So much invested in it.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: April 08, 2013 09:26PM

It's not proof of the fraud that we are looking for, but admittance from leadership that it is a fraud. You're right that if a TBM wants to know they will find out, but those who don't want to know must be told. Leadership is where the true power over the people is.

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Posted by: Twinker ( )
Date: April 09, 2013 12:08AM

I can't remember all the details but he had had an affair with his secretary and left the church. He was living with the woman in Mexico.

As I remember, the former 70's told a similar story of being given money that would have to be repaid if the person left or spoke about the truth of the church- kind of a non-disclosure agreement.

Can anyone remember the story or man's name or the poster who first told the story? It was very similar to what Grant Palmer is saying about the payoff.

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Posted by: Jiminycricket ( )
Date: April 09, 2013 02:33AM

Here's the story:

The Unknown Story of Julio Davila, General Authority

Julio Davila is a former 70 from Colombia. In the mid-90's Colombian became a focus for the church- Calling authorities from there, temple, etc. They believed that since the risk of kidnapings and attacks on church facilities was dwindiling, that this would be the next Brasil.

Enter Julio. He was called to the 2nd quorum of the 70's. Spoke at general conference, he was a gifted speaker and then he dissapeared...well my father and I know Julio well, this is what happened:

Julio came to Salt Lake often for his calling. During these trips he received his 2nd annointing. After a lifetime of service, He began to realize that church was not at all what he was led to believe.

Julio has a secretary. Julio had an affair with this secretary. Julio took her as a "second wife". Julio was one of the few GA's ever to want to go public, despite the affair about the church. The church reminded him of his legal (contractual and financial) obligations to the church. Julio quietly moved to Mexico City, where he resides this day with his secretary.

A few years ago, my dad called him. My dad wanted to know if he would help with a non-profit effort in Colombia.

He greeted him- Brother Davila, how nice to hear your voice! Davila responded- I am not your brother, please dont call me your brother. He explained to my dad that the church would have a hard time getting anyone of color into the 70 or the 12 becuase white people are culturally willing to see the fraud and think that it is for a grander course, while minorities tend to see it, take it and live it all literally.

Needless to say Julio was pissed he was contacted and was ansked to be left along. This of course ecalated to a massive call/ love bombing by another friend. Julio responded that being in or out of the church was not a matter of following Jesus, or of even belief, it was a matter of what set of lies you believed or could not believe. He asked to never be contacted again. That he came to know this was not christ's church and that no ammount of good intentions, group think, or apologies would make it christ's church and that he had no interest in it at that point. He said that he was ecouraged to look past the faults, becuase he was told these were the faults of well meaning men.

I wonder how many GA's have simple dissapeared into oblivion, how many know what fraud this is, how many have been kept silenced.
Can you elaborate on what these obligations are. I've suspected that the cult used some kind of legal means to keep people quiet. Perhaps giving them loans that can be called due of they step out of line. Can you tell us more about this point?
May dad was a church employee for 20 years before he left. I myself did a bit of consulting for them 15 years ago. This is what I have learned myself:

Intellectual reserve, the legal proprietary arm of the church, makes you sign a contract. You cannot disclose what you did for them, how much you were paid or that you were hired as a contractor (I was). You cannot keep copies of the work, talk or publish it, it is owned it its entirety by the church. General authorities (I don't know of this applies to 2nd quorum of the 70's) sign over their property over to a trust, if you violate your contract they keep your property.

What I have researched and heard from other ex- leaders: Since the time of BY, the church "lends" money to GA's for personal projects. This money is interest free and does not have to be repaid (this is for legal, tax and doctrinal reasons) if you tow the line. If you step out of line it becomes due and it is a lien on your property. Any income from sitting on boards, as director, consultant, etc- which is what the 12 spend most of their time doing, you keep, if you leave, since you are a representative of the church on those boards, you lose and may have to pay back. of course you loose your "living expenses" (60-120K), your access to church property for personal use (Hawaii, Florida, Europe, etc)

This is how a "humble" life long seminary teacher (BKP) or meager church employee (GBH) can end up as millionaires as pass on significant wealth to family members. If you step out of line, its all gone and you are in serious legal trouble.

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Posted by: Suckafoo ( )
Date: April 09, 2013 07:12AM

He pulled a William Law and left without a word. Can't find this story anywhere else. Sounds like they do sell their souls. No wonder GA's stick around so consistently.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2013 07:13AM by Suckafoo.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 09, 2013 12:16AM

I think we can agree.... Cash or no..... that those chosen as GAs are Locked Into playing their roles.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: April 09, 2013 06:33AM

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