God used Joseph Smith, a very flawed man, as his prophet so that despite all of his proud, sexually tempted, mean-spirited actions, we would know that the miracles were not joseph, but were God. For if God had picked someone of talent, of modesty and of great love, people would have seen the works not from God but from the talent of that man.
well at least they are admitting that Joseph was massively flawed lol on that we can agree
I would take that to mean that all of the prophets after Joseph must also be terribly flawed. Otherwise, how would we know it was God talking? So when the prophet is talking as a man, does that mean he has suddenly become perfect? Oh, this hurts my brain
I have been exploring a similar line of thought for engaging TBMs, especially nieces.
The only real difference between Warren Jeff's group and modern Mormonism is that they did not accept the revelation of Wilford Woodruff to stop the eternal principle of eternal polygamist marriage.
They believe Joseph Smith restored the fullness of the gospel, they believe in the Book of Mormon, the believe in revelation through a living prophet--just like modern Mormons. They just rejected the revelation that polygamy was no longer a doctrine from God for these times.
I am hopeful that such a shared belief system will cause pause for further knowledge.
I can see how this will become the 'new' argument because it is sort of a discussion killer. However, what I don't understand is that this then opens the door to all prophets since being seriously flawed. If they are all seriously flawed, how do we know when they are 'speaking for God'? How do we know when they are speaking as a man? I mean, you could really just start introducing a bunch of stuff into the discussion about various comments made by prophets since, and asking whether this was them speaking as a man or 'for God'. Brigham Young could be a major part of this. I mean, people followed his teachings, he said what he was saying was Doctrine, etc. Basically, TBMs will resort to any sort of mental gymnastics, so this is not surprising.
Fair enough, the question they have answer for me is that is integrity a core principle of Mormonism?
Why did the Mormon church train their LDS missionaries and educate their university level students with false information about Joseph Smith? At what point in a person's life does the church decide to be honest about the Joseph Smith story? Why wouldn't a graduate of a four-year LDS seminary program not know that Joseph Smith never translated directly from the golden plates, provided multiple and diverse stories about a First Vision, married over 30-women against US law--many of whom were 17 and under and many of whom were married to LDS righteous men creating polyandrous relationships. When he died in Carthage jail why is it not taught that he killed two men with a gun that was smuggled into jail for him. Translation of Kinderhook plates, not taught. Controversy of the translation of papyri attributed by Smith as the Book of Abraham, not taught.
They can now say Smith was a flawed prophet, but effective, but why are they providing misrepresentations about the founding of their Church? There can be only one reason, they think it will result in fewer people joining and remaining in their cult. This makes it a cult fraud.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2013 06:01PM by gentlestrength.
The problem with being a true believer of anything is you start at the answer you want and retrofit all the logic in reverse to support your belief. Anything inconsistencies in logic you explain away as a mystery or put on a shelf.
I did that all the time as a TBM. I'd hear something outrageuos and I could fit it in or I'd just ignore it because I couldn't figure it out.
Keep in mind, I have a BS in Engineering and studied rational/logical thought in lots of classes. I could go through an enormous amount of hoops to create a flow of logic to explain anything and it would all make sense according to the standard works and all the teachings of the profits. I studied all those things assiduously and the profits have all said so many obscure things you can make anything work.
I hate me. I wish I was a simpler thinking guy and just look at the BoM and say that's a bunch of sh!t.
Dude, don't beat yourself up too bad. We all did it. I hate my old self that could justify or ignore anything that didn't support "the gospel" too. I think we all look back in amazement/disbelief at our former TBM selves, but that is only through the lens of 20/20 hindsight.
At that time, we were all looking through the myopic lens drilled into our heads from birth/conversion. It's the only one we had or knew about.
A testimony works like a magic trick in reverse...what at first seems unbelievable becomes very believable once you know the trick.
Um, the only evidence of anything being miracles were based on the testimony of JS. It's no miracle that mobs didn't find the gold plates in a barrel of beans if there were no plates in the first place.
Oh, I get this one all the time. Something like: "Sure JS or BY were flawed. We're all flawed." To which I say: "Really? You been marrying teenagers or other people's spouses recently??"
Then they'll say: "look at the prophets in the Bible and all the crazy bad things they did." To which I say: "Um, yeah, I have and I think the Bible is all !&%*ed up too!"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2013 06:19PM by Onmywayout . . . someday.
Isn't that exactly what the Lord's Church teaches? When you were in the Church didn't the Lord's anointed hammer in your head week in and week out what a no good, rotten, lying son of a bitch Joseph was and how lucky the Church was to have such a low life as the one who restored the gospel? Give me a break. No excuse is too stupid for Mormons.
I don't know anyone who is claiming JS wasn't talented or charismatic. To argue that his inability to keep it in his pants somehow shows that he really saw working for God is a huge straw man. In fact because JS married other mens wives, ruined the reputations of other women etc his followers assumed that God had told him to do that. What type of need to believe would make that seem like something an idea a supreme being would come up with? That's some seriously bad logic IMHO.
So sure I can see how God would think calling someone like Smithy would be a great idea. </sarcasm>
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2013 08:11PM by badseed.
Why should we be any better than Joseph Smith then? Their doctrine of reaching perfection doesn't jive with that new twist. Shouldn't we then be as flawed so God can work miracles through us too? Their explanation is not logical, so yeah, it's laughable.
"I know that Joseph Smith, who acknowledged that he wasn’t perfect, was nevertheless the chosen instrument in God’s hand to restore the everlasting gospel to the earth."
You'd think an all powerful being would choose someone that was of much better character with only a few flaws. Why choose someone that's not going to put the "plan' in the best light possible? It's like having a home built and knowingly hiring the builder with the most flawed houses even though his/her homes are the same price as the others.
and God knew that hundreds of thousands would leave the church when they found out decades later that the first vision didn't happen the way it is taught today,
then God goofed.
JS didn't get the necessary revelation to put in the D&C that states: Tell the G'damn visit of God the Father and Jesus that I gave you in 1820. Make sure everyone knows about it. Tell your parents, your siblings, the three witness to the BOM, your neighbors, all the preachers of other faiths so they'll all write it in their journals. PLEASE or PRETTY PLEASE bare testimony of the visit of BOTH of us when you organize the church, make sure you put us in your first history of the church, and make sure that all printed missionary work for Parley P. Pratt includes us. WE'RE IMPORTANT YA KNOW. Make sure it is talked about in every anti-Mormon article and book written in your early years - why my son, so the world will KNOW WE TOOK THE TIME TO COME TO YOU - SO DAMN IT TELL OUR STORY!
They were willing to threaten his life and eternal salvation over polygamy, but not fucking up The First Vision story, over and over and over again?! Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Argument #4,562 against the church.
The other bit is that Joe did many of these things in the name of God. Sometimes even "reluctantly," under divine coercion. I don't know about you, but if God appeared to me and charged me with delivering a divine message to... well anyone, let alone "everyone," you can be damn sure I'd deliver that message clearly and explicitly, and make it very, very clear when I was being A Mouthpiece Of God and when I was providing my own opinion or interpretation of things. And I would keep my nose extra sparkly clean. I mean, GOD HIMSELF, people. If God don't put the fear of God in ya, what will?
God using a deeply flawed character as evidence of [insert whatever claim you want] sounds a lot like the nonsense pushed by Terryl Givens.
It comes straight from the playbook of taking the weakest link in your argument and trying to polish that turd up as a strength.
A more consistent argument is a flawed person with a long history of scamming his neighbors by pretending he could find buried gold, eventually founded a scam religion based on scam *golden* plates he dug out of the ground.
problems with the cult can be traced to the guy in charge, namely elohim. total asshole. this is reflected in the staff that he has chosen. with all the humans that he could have selected to run his cult, he came up with these lunatics, and liars? no wonder the mormons are nothing more than a pop culture joke, backward and totally irrelevant.