On a recently closed thread, fiona64 asks:

“…as a never-mo, can someone help me understand this: a rape *victim* is being held responsible by TSCC for what happened to her? Really?“

fiona's post:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,878648,879189#msg-879189

Here’s the original thread (all the best to “kitnb1” - I hope the responses you received were of some help to you:)

kitnb1:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,878648,878648#msg-878648


Here’s the answer (in a nutshell: Yes, in Mormonism it’s blame the victim time – check out the stats for failure to report sexual attacks – 90% as late as 2003):

http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_sex_purity.htm

Add to this culture of "blame the victim" the reality in the Mormon Church of "calling" untrained men as leaders and advisors, which can only make things much worse for members who feel they must go only to their church leaders for help even in crisis situations. Then you get the plumber giving marital advice, the printer hearing "confessions", the pool guy advising a rape victim, and using church "handbooks" to guide him (as he doesn't have a clue himself) in spouting off the church's line about how much culpability the person who was attacked bears and how it's best to keep the incident quiet; i.e., not report it to civil authorities.

This has been written in church handbooks and publications by Mormon prophets and other top leaders. It may also be so ingrained in the culture that it partially comes from the "unwritten" handbook; i.e., word of mouth, general observation on how things are done, personal experience of same, and other more ephemeral ways in which "the way it's done" is handed down, part of tradition, just the way it is.

I wonder sometimes if this partly explains why bishops began to ask such personal and intrusive questions of the unfortunate "victims" in their offices. We have to find out, after all, how much blame is attached to the victim.

This inappropriate questioning happened to my convert friend, who had an affair with a missionary and both were disfellowshipped (yes, she accepts that in this case she did a terrible wrong). But so did they, the day they convened their church court and three men questioned her unmercifully about all the details - how often, where, when, why, how, and even more intrusive questions until she was a sobbing heap on the floor. If you ask them, they will say they are just doing their job. And I saw some who seemed so afraid themselves that they weren't carrying out their jobs to the nth degree. The bishop in the ward I attended, for instance, asking me personal questions prior to getting a TR, blushing and apologizing as he did so, but saying he had to "follow the book".

Everybody trying to do the right thing. Following the leader without independent thought and room to be different can lead to terrible abuses in and of itself.

One can only hope that recent events in the Catholic Church, for instance, have caused a change in how the Mormon Church handles crises like incidents of rape in their own often-closed circles. But as it's been part of their culture for generations, training their members to seek counsel only from local leaders, keeping tight reins on those leaders, and keeping non-Mormon authorities and experts outside the loop, it's still a reality that persons who have suffered attacks, abuse and other outrages do not get the help they need. First, their local leaders are not trained to handle such issues and second, they are all strongly discouraged (or have been until very recently, if that has even changed slightly) from seeking outside help. This is especially true when it comes to reporting abusers to outside authorities.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2013 02:21PM by Nightingale.

Thank you for your response. I remain mind-boggled, I must admit -- and this is just further proof that untrained, unqualified clergy are a bad, bad plan. :-(

I was blamed & reblamed & still they look at me strange or don't talk to e. a hugs reason to leave

Just take a look at any story involving a member of the church sexually abusing a woman and you'll see it in a heartbeat.

It's also why they're so anti-abortion -- because women must be punished for having vaginas if they are used as nature intended whether willingly or no.

I had one. I was raped! Was not about to keep it, the bishop wanted me to. Can u imagine having a child out of rape & telling them how they were conceived? No way!

Just read the article & I am ragging mad, I am going to sue them to high hell

I did. It was extremely difficult.

I am so sorry about ur situation, I just don't get how ANY of this is the victems fault.

Rape victims are blamed and blamed and blamed by normal society.

Now, take mormons, who have a sexism factor of 85 on a scale of 1-10, you bet they victim blame rape survivors. They are told to repent. They are told that they should defend their "virtue" with their lives. They are told their abusers are good people and that they should forgive them.

"Real rape" to them, only happens Elizabeth Smart style.

Considering how pervasive rape culture is in society, why wouldn't a patriarchal religion blame the rape victim?

Time and time again I see comments under news articles about a rape casing blaming the victim, accusing him or her of lying, trying to get money, shouldn't have been drinking, wearing that, hanging out with those people, protecting the predator etc.

It's a disgustingly common attitude.

When, in my 20's, I talked to my bishop about the abuse that I had gone through as a child, he answered "Why don't you just forget about it, you will be more happy then spending your time dwelling on it"

My grind was raped, & the bishop told her it was her fault, especially because she had been drinking. This asshole was a cop, & he said bullshit like that. He fucking knew better, & said it anyway.

I was so angry, I typed too fast, & didn't catch the word insert.

Oh haha, I was wondering how out of touch I am, not recognizing some new terminology used by another generation, or something!

A guy I thought was a friend assaulted me (not anything near rape, mostly because he was unable due to being drunk, although I hadn't realized that when he first arrived, unannounced) in my apartment one sunny Saturday morning. I didn't want to report it officially because I had considered him a friend and also because I was close to his mom. I knew she'd be so upset if she knew about it. They were all ultra religious (not Mormon). But I was scared that he might do it again and it was over the line enough, and frightened me enough, that I called an acquaintance who was a cop. I didn't want to make a formal report right away but wanted someone official to know about it in case it happened again, at which time I was determined I would report it no matter what.

The cop was courteous, and sorry about what had happened, he said, and then he uttered the 'b' word - BUT - "...but you let him in", which indicated to me that it was my fault it happened at all. As if I already didn't feel badly enough in that regard. It's hard NOT to blame oneself. Worse if others do. It all piles on to make you feel 100% responsible and then nobody attributes any fault to the actual perpetrator.

As we know, this attitude of others magnifies the situation. In my case, not only did I feel afraid, and humiliated, and powerless, now this cop, to whom I had turned for help and advice, was blaming me, even though he did it in a hesitant and gentle voice while indicating that there was nothing to be done, especially because "...you're not hurt" (no visible wounds, no need for medical care). Subsequently, others reacted in even worse ways, all of them making me feel so much worse.

In the hours afterwards, I felt so shocked that a friend would do that to me, especially a guy from church (duh) and I had had no clue that he was interested in me, if that is what his clumsy attack was supposed to signify. He had been drinking, I realized during the incident, another shock, as being drunk was a 'sin', according to our beliefs. Yet another shock was that I was completely powerless during the attack. This guy was well over 6' tall, huge and muscular with it, and I literally could not move when he was holding me down. I had had no idea previously that I could be so physically weak and helpless. It was very scary.

Eventually I phoned a girlfriend and couldn't talk, or cry, just sat there holding the phone, frozen. Obviously she knew something was wrong and she came right over. I told her what had happened and she ended up taking me to her place. Not what I needed at the time, it turned out. Her big, blustery husband was there, along with a friend of his who had been invited for dinner. In an amazingly huge coincidence, he was also a member of my church, although not from my congregation. My gf had told them both what had happened, which really embarrassed me.

All through dinner, gf's husband made non-stop rape jokes. Like there's any joke about rape that could be remotely funny or appropriate. While the other two didn't laugh, they didn't tell him to stop either. By the end of the evening, I was even more 'frozen', unable to speak or think or react normally in a social situation. GF took me home, at my insistence, where I gave up on phoning anyone else for help.

For the next three months, at least, I felt spooked out, like someone was watching me, following me, and I couldn't say for certain that it was just my imagination or that this guy from church wouldn't do that. I had had a stalkerish experience with a guy from work in the recent past, where he would follow me on my lunch hour and show up at a shop or restaurant where I had walked to in my free time.

Anticipating another attack is its own kind of frightening. That feeling slowly did quieten down but it took months.

So yeah. My fault for thinking a friend is a friend. My fault for trusting enough to let a friend enter my home. My fault because some guy would, unknowingly to me, become a stalker or an attacker. My fault for being female. My fault.

Nobody ever said he shouldn't have done it.

I was very shy at the time and found it hard to talk about it. Overcoming that profound hesitancy enough to confide in someone who then blames me (the cop) or doesn't help me and actually puts me in a worse situation than if I'd stayed alone (gf) caused me to feel even more helpless and humiliated. Yet again I learned that it's best to keep silent to try and protect whatever was left of my fragile self esteem.

Fortunately, I still like guys, and girlfriends, and cops, so no permanent harm done.

But.

What a breakthrough it would be if nobody ever any more teaches or believes that a woman who is attacked by a man is at fault.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2013 02:21PM by Nightingale.

I feel angry on your behalf. I'm so sorry this happened to you, Nightengale.

Blame the rape victim - unbelievable!

It would be horrible sin in any other Christian religion.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, you name it. If it's patriarchal in nature then many of the adherents of the religion will blame women for the violence done to them.

yep. In my Baptist church you would hear phrases like, "Well what was she wearing?" and "She should have known better than to be alone in Atlanta."

infuriating.

Hello Nightingale,

I am SO sorry for your HORRIBLE experience and for the AWFUl response to it. You have had a difficult time and deserve support and credit for saying what happened. You were NOT at fault. Please, take WONDERFUL care of yourself. You deserve it!!

I was feeling embarrassed about what I wrote and was going to delete it today but your kind words have made me feel better about leaving it. You have put your finger on the exact reason that it became a worse experience than it was initially and that is the reaction to it. If people hadn't reacted with the comments and actions they did then the situation wouldn't have been intensified as it was.

I had another similar experience that I've posted about before where people in authority reacted in a similar way (laughing about it, failing to act) which also served to make the experience much worse for me.

It helps, even years later, for people to say things like I'm sorry, yes, it was awful, and especially it wasn't your fault. Sometimes it may feel impossible to know what to say to someone in the aftermath of difficult circumstances and yet such simple comments are so supportive and reinforce that we are not at fault for someone else's abusive actions. This is contrary to what the Mormon Church teaches of course, as well as other churches, who also look at a victim to see what portion of blame attaches to them. That alone can be so harmful to recovery from such experiences.

Fluhist, I was interested to see what your board name is about, and think that your chosen specialty is fascinating. I'm very interested in medical history too.

Thank you again for your kind, and timely, words today. You really helped!

I was nearly raped by a husband of a friend (while she was sleeping upstairs, plus their two small children). Luckily I was able to talk him out of it. I can still feel the helplessness while he was pinning my wrists down over my head. And that was over 20 years ago when I was single. ;-( I felt ashamed although his attack came like a flash from clear sky. I never told my friend or reported to the police. Wonder how many other girls he attacked? (If.) Or even raped? (If.)

It's my observation that society in general finds many ways to blame rape victims! Often the victims blame themselves, others blame a parent, a friend, a circumstance, dress, alcohol, drugs,generational behaviors, and on and on and on.

Without looking it up, there is always a statistic that makes a stab at how many rapes are not reported. Also, there is the problem of false accusations.

Does religion in general or Mormonism specifically blame the victim? Yes and No. It depends on a lot of factors. I have heard a lot of factors mentioned that have nothing to do with rape: place, how the woman was dressed, was she passed out, and so on. None of which are an acceptable reason to commit a criminal act and rape a woman. None.

I would hope that we, as a society are getting better at blaming the criminal for the criminal act, not the victim and using the law to punish the correct person.

The "Holy See" aka "Inquisition"
There is basicly no difference.

When I was younger, my dickhead brothers were sexually abusive to my little sister & to me. Even more so to my little sister because she was only 4. I told my mother & she wouldn't believe me! She said I didn't have any proof. It took me months to 'prove' what happened, & she finally believed me, but then turned around & told me it was my fault. And my douche of a father's only response was 'boys will be boys'. To this day, my brothers are still 'worthy' p-holders, & are preparing for missions. They are adored & looked up to in their ward. Saying they are hypocrites would be an understatement. My mother says I'm evil for not 'forgiving' my brothers for what they did. I will never ever need to owe any one of those bastards an apology.

Yeah... my TBM family is great. families are forever? fuck that.

I was in Seminary at 7am in 1985 and i hated being there since I pretty much knew I didn't believe. My seminary teacher started explaining that girls should fight to the death to preserve their chastity. And I asked to clarify, that if a girl is being raped and she lives, she is now dirty or unclean or whatever? He confirmed yes. I grabbed my backpack and left. Sick sick church.

Hello Nightingale,
I am SO glad I could help in some small way. I am a childhood sexual abuse survivor and as part of my own recovery from that horror, I have worked at times with other sexual abuse victims. Sadly because I work at a university, I see the extent of abuse that women and girls are subject to. It is sickening. The truth is VERY simple, it is NOT your fault, and that is very freeing. Please never forget that!

I so appreciate you comments about my work too. I would love to hear what you have done in the area. Thankyou for your interest!

Sunbeam, I APPLAUD you!!! Take a bow my dear!!!!!! I never heard it put so bluntly, but I remember having women disagree with me in the Church when I said that virtue cannot be taken from you, it must be given. They were aghast. I cannot imagine what it must be like for LDS victims to think they are no longer virtuous, and as you say are dirty or something because they have been attacked!!! HONESTLY!!!!! As you say, what a sick sick Church to think that.

I never experienced it personallly because I had buried a lot of it all the time I was in the Church, so I never talked about it. It came out in therapy when I was being councelled for my marriage breakup in my 40s. I can honestly say that it was the most painful things I ever had to experience, to face it and recover. No human being should have to go through that, and my heart breaks for all victims. But as a survivor I am fully empowered and that is a wonderful feeling. I am so proud of you for standing up and also with Nightingale for being so honest. Thankyou both SO much, my faith in the future is well in hand because of you two lovely ladies!!

Hello Kitnbl,

I wanted to respond to you before the break but didn't get a chance. I am new to this, and didn't know how the site worked.

My dear, I can only send you all my deepest empathy and support. You have survived what I think is one of every woman's deepest fears, not only the horror of rape but the terribe decision to make about the pregnancy that resulted. There is NO right or wrong decision there, and I can only begin to imagine your pain and how alone you must have felt. And then on top of it all, the Bishop telling you should have the baby, when what he SHOULD have been doing was supporting you to make whatever decision was right for you. How arrogant that he dared to advise you like that!

I have only the greatest admiration for the strong woman you are, that you took the responsibility for your own life in your own hands and made a decision (difficult though I know it must have been) to do what was right for you. Please know you have my TOTAL support. I hope my few words are a help and I only wish there was more I could do for you!

what's the movie about rape with Jodie Foster in it? I can't remember the name of it. But I def remember spencer W. kimball advising young women that it would be better to die than be known as a rape victim. And if you did get raped, it's because you weren't listening to the prophet or reading the BoM enough

Jodie Foster movie = The Accused. One of the worst, triggering, hardest to watch rape scenes ever. That movie should never be mentioned without giving a "Trigger warning." Rape survivors might not want to see that and relive their own trauma again.

I haven't read this thread yet, but came in here to say: Really? You actually have to ASK if rape victims are blamed?

Anyone who's been reading this forum for more than five minutes should be able to pick out at least three stories where the victim was blamed. And that's not just confined to rape or sexual abuse either. In mormonism, the victim -- no matter which crime -- is always blamed. That's how the church keeps you needing it. You are a sick, pathetic, weak creature and you need the church to keep you on the straight and narrow.

I was not only blamed for my abuse, but was also punished for it. I was put on probation (a step down from disfellowshipping) and told to repent. For letting myself get raped. Let that sink in a minute while I read this thread now.

yes thank-you. That's the movie I was talking about. And I didn't say the name. You did!

A friend of mine was date raped and she made the mistake of telling people in our YSA ward. Many men were very judgemental and blamed her for it. Their thinking was that if she was dating a Mormon man instead of a non-Mormon then she never would have been raped. Excuse me? Rape is rape and NOT HER FAULT. Also, Mormon men are not pure as the driven snow. Too many women and children who have been raped and assaulted by priesthood holding Mormon men.

I would also add that these sorry excuses for men weren't dating her (or any other women in the ward for that matter), so who was she supposed to date? Was she supposed to wait to be someone's 784th wife in the CK?

Here's one for you. When it came out that my good priesthood holding father had molested both me and my sister or years and was going to be excommunicated, he received fucking sympathy cards! WTF!

My sister and I were just left sitting in the outfield with no support at all.

As for forgiveness, my parents are still married, my father is baptized again and has gone through the temple again, my sister is TBM and has a "good" relationship with my father.

I only have ancillary and intermittent contact due to the marriage of my parents, which I did advocate for them to divorce. Any element of forgiveness that might come from me is only for the purpose of me to find peace.

I am no longer a member, and my mom thinks I'm lesbian because of those experiences. Oh well, I'm a happy non-mo, non practicing lesbian because I removed myself from that controlling situation of an ex-girlfriend too. I'm learning as I go in regards to healthy relationships and intimacy in relationships apart from sex. It's challenging and wierd and fun.