http://mormonexpression.com/?powerpress_pinw=3049-podcast

This podcast is almost two hours and has drawn out moments. It also does a good job of vetting the use of the word cult with respect to Mormonism. The inflammatory nature even if accurate.

For me the shame is the absence of a hard core TBM in the discussion. Hope those who are able to give it a listen find it valuable. I get frustrated with nuance with respect to Mormonism and often am gratified when a TBM owns up to their beliefs.

TBMs find the word "cult" so inflammatory and utterly disrespectful that they refuse to listen to the end of the sentence once the word is used.

However.... is it really that big of a disrespect when using history, cultural norms, scientific research, and contemporary studies on aspects of cult behavior and member mentality to support your claims of why Mormonism aligns more accurately with cult than faith?

"As long as we accept the principle that religious faith must be respected simply because it is religious faith, it is hard to withhold respect from the faith of Osama bin Laden and the suicide bombers." Richard Dawkins ----- The God Delusion

One of the key takeaways from this podcast is that many Mormons would be proud of all of the key metrics for a cult, but should they be labeled as a cult that would destroy the exercise.

This does reinforce the power of labels. Just because a cult is a cult doesn't make it useful to call a cult a cult. It can be an organization with the exclusive fullness of the gospel with a strong central leader that communicates exclusively with God for all mankind. Nothing particularly wrong with that is there?

I guess I'm not exactly following your point. Are you arguing that cults are not necessarily wrong, or that using the word "cult" is wrong/unproductive but the establishment is not (ie semantics game)?

I actually think all cults are bad because they prey on people's inherent desire for belonging to a community/culture which is hardwired for our survival while concurrently withholding critical information about the establishment. To me this is at best a grave disrespect to autonomy, at worst quintessential deception.

As far as semantics, I guess even if we were to substitute "cult" for a different word to enable them to embrace cult-like characteristics, to the rest of the world a cult is cult...

I am not advocating a thing other than the linked podcast is a hearty/hardy discussion on cults. A lot of the discussion is about the word cult as a perjorative, because almost any religion, but especially Mormonism has easily recognizable cult qualities.

It is an interesting discussion. I especially thought it was interesting that most Mormons would agree that their religion is a cult if the words were describing the characteristics of a cult were chosen carefully and the actual word cult was not used. I guess cults don't like to be called cults.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 08:56PM by gentlestrength.

Agreed. That is a strange dichotomy that TBMs embrace characteristics of cults but despise being called a cult. And probably a good example of cognitive dissonance. \

So use it at the end of the sentence. Got it.

Has anyone done the work to take the world's major religions and compare them to a "cult" checklist like the one that was used as a reference in this podcast?

It is a gradient, not a black and white thing for sure, but I believe that there are religious institutions that lie on the non-coercive, non-controlling end of the spectrum significantly removed from from groups that hit all the check marks on this list.

2+2=4
(Changed my screen name, used to post as MorMom)

I think the only real way to get the messge across when discussing the cult like atributes of LDS inc is to call it a fucking cult. Cult is a little soft for my tastes.

It's a cult...by every metric used to define cult. Doesn't mean they're neutering themselves and committing mass suicide when the UFO comes behind a comet to pick them up...that's a different kind of cult...more precisely it's a "Correction" Cult... it alone has the truth to "restore" Christianity.

That said, I paraphrase what one of the cult's leaders said, "Not all things that are true are useful."

If you want to innoculate people from joining, then the accurate word "cult" is true and useful. If you want a dialogue with someone to get them to open their mind, I've learned the hard way that "cult" is not very useful. Conversation-killer, for sure.

I agree with Jacob's comment above.

(Sidenote: I think John & Zilpha do a superb job of calling a spade a spade on Mormon Expression. I can't stand listening to John Dehlin's Mormon Stories podcasts because he opens with, "We don't want anyone to be offended. Let's just exchange ideas and then we'll go our separate ways just asking questions, never getting to any answers.")

Why can't we go to our TBM family members, friends, relatives and say, "I care for you. I fear for your health and your financial well-being. You're part of a cult."? Why is that so objectionable?

"You have cancer" is also objectionable, but you shouldn't dance around it.

Likewise, "you have diabetes."
"You are broke."
"The sewer is clogged."
"Your muffler has rusted through and needs to be replaced."
"You failed this class."
"You believe in a cult."

The fact that a single label is so objectionable proves the very point that mind control has taken over. It proves you're entrenched in a f*cking cult.

The fact that a single label is so objectionable proves the very point that mind control has taken over. It proves you're entrenched in a f*cking cult.

+1

I don't think using the word is helpful, accurate or not. TBMs will just get offended by it, and those harboring doubts will not be persuaded by it. Investigators will not equate "cult" with the cute missionary boys coming by.

Of all the criticisms of Mormonism, this is one of the weakest. It may make for interesting sociological discussion, but it is counterproductive when discussing with Mormons or those sympathetic to Mormons.

I tend to agree. When talking to believers, the term "cult" I generally find to be a conversation stopper. To a TBM, you reinforce your rabid anti status. To a doubter, you seem angry and as if you can't move on. "Cult" is strictly pejorative to them.

I use other equivalent terms without having to dignify their mess by calling it a church or religion, such as "social system," "organization," or even "tribe." I've found conversations stay viable choosing the right words. Mormons are superficial like that.

when I read the title of this thread, this is what I heard in my mind. Just replace the word horse with the word cult.


A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed.

Go right to the source and ask the horse
He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.
He's always on a steady course.
Talk to Mr. Ed.

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day
But Mister Ed will never speak unless he has something to say.

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one'll talk 'til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?

Well listen to this.

I am Mister Ed.

I kind of agree. I understand the use of the word cult obviously, but if you're talking to a mormon and want to make them leave the church, telling them they're in a cult will not go down well in most cases.

Use of the word cult is NOT helpful in discussions with Mormons. The problem is that there is not a uniform definition of the word which is universally accepted. Not even non-Mormons seem to define it the same way. In addition, when people use it, it is akin to name calling, an unproductive method of argument. It is far more effective to explain the REASONS it is a cult instead of just calling it a cult.

In my opinion its a thought stopper just like when Mormons call us "anti-Mormons." Prove to us where our arguments are wrong, don't just call us a name. The same goes to us calling them a "cult." Its our "Meat before Milk" when engaging them. Its better to leave that term off the table until you have sufficiently de-converted them.

Once my family dynanmic changes a bit I am going to be able to make a full disclosure about who I am and my history with TSSC and Rfm, which day I am looking forward to with much anticipation. Until then I have to be a little careful about what I post. I am at the end of a long and successful career as a litigation lawyer. I sued cults. I made a fair amount of money suing cults. I worked with some of the leading cult experts in the country. Have no doubt: TSCC is a cult through and through. I agree with the above posters that we have to use the right words when talking with friends and family in order to keep them talking, which, in the long run will do them more good than labeling TSCC as a cult. The true evil of TSCC is the destructive nature of the organization, the utter and complete fraud that is being perpetrated on so many good folks, many of whom are our families and friends. If we can get them out of TSCC that should be far more important than trying to use a pejorative term that turns off their ears. I try to remember that everytime I am biting my tongue as the word "cult" flutters around my vocal cords, unless I am talking with fellow exmos and then I have a great string of modifiers that I love to use ahead of the word "cult".

"Shut up"

Yes, that is about it.

I am using some introspection by starting this thread. Hard search "fraud cult", you'll find over a dozen of my posts.

Mormonism is a cult, I am grateful to be be able to freely say so here on RfM. I am putting this important podcast to self-regulate and encourage discussion.

I don't have TBMs who are playing fair. On some level I still love them, but I'm in a flex point and it looks like they must go away, because cult members are not valuable to me at this time.

Hopefully these are relevant times and we are going over the wall and we are going to fight this battle and we are going to win.

+100

We're with ya bro. The cult does not play fair. It deserves every knock on it gets. The poor cultists deserve some empathy since they are deluded prisoners too, but playing nice with deceptive liars, no matter how well-intentioned they are, cannot be reconciled with the fate of all the innocents that are harmed by the atrocity that is mormonism.

I've mentioned this before, but if every exmo went "over the wall" in a very dynamic and energetic and committed way, the cult would be doomed. If not due to the actions of the exmos, due to the stupidity and outrageousness of the cult's reaction.

I really like BC's moniker "The Oncoming Storm". I plan to be part of it.