OK, I have a confession to make. I was borrowing my wife's tablet, and noticed some emails from a senior couple in her ward. I couldn't help myself, so I read them. They were public emails anyway, sent out en masse to members of the ward for spirichul upliftment purposes. I found the missionary stats interesting, which I posted on another thread. A later email from their assigned post in Nauvoo really made me wonder, though. Apparently, the veil is so thin in Nauvoo, that this senior missionary can hear them yearning for their stories to be told.
I'm tempted to write this missionary back, and ask the following questions:
"Can you hear the voice of Helen Mar Kimball, telling you how she was manipulated into marrying Joseph Smith at the tender age of 14?
"Can you hear the voices of other young women, who were sometimes locked in a room until they agreed to enter into plural marriage?"
The list of voices from Nauvoo wanting to be heard could go on and on...

now that I think about it, it would be fun to do a ghost hunting trip there. That is right up my alley. I bet I could find some juicy details about JS!

I'll bet Fanny Alger is giving them an earful. For some reason Mormons don't want to hear what she had to say.

I don't have a testimony of Fanny Alger, I don't believe she's true. By the way Fanny means bum in the UK, and that is not a real name like Mormoni, I mean Samuel the Lamanite.

... a much more private part of a lady (think vajayjay...)

Which actually makes it even funnier ;-)

Tom in Paris

(who is nevertheless a Brit by birth and education)

Vajay my ass.

I get the feeling from your post you have likely have never spent appreciable time around Brits or Aussies then.

Do it do it!!!

I like to look over both sides of a coin. Though I don't understand Smith's marrying females young enough to be his daughter and old enough to be his mother, in spite of all the bad mouthing I have read of him from 'others', never once in the writings from any of these thirty plus wives he supposedly married have I ever read had a bad thing to say of him.
I never read they claimed he took advantage of them, used them, raped them, forced them to do things they didn't want to do etc. I have searched these 'wives' historic writings and it appears they are the only ones that didn't have anything nasty, foul and disgusting to say/claim of Smith himself. And several made sure that they were sealed to him after Smith was dead and gone.
I find it puzzling that the primary wives had nothing negative to say/claim of Smith but so many others did. Just saying...

It interests me that in the entire breadth of the historical record about Smith's polygamy, you find this detail of your perception to be another side of the coin. Also, it would seem that Emma had a lot to say about Smith's sexual habits -- if god had to step in to mediate.

They were brainwashed. Manipulated. Deluded.

They thought the horn dog was a prophet. A celebrity in the community. Power. Prestige. Exaltation for her family.

Not to mention peer pressure. Acceptance.

this.....

Nothing bad to say!?! Sarah Pratt had plenty to say. And he threatened to ruin her! And got Bennet to help him! What where those women going to say? "Hes a bad lay?" They basically only saw him for sex; there was no relationship. Many were promised exaltation for their families,and know Sarah Pratt was threatened,why would we suppose she was the only one? Back in those days women werent citizens they were chattle, and were exspected to suffer in silence!

First, I was speaking of 'wives' of Smith. Sarah Pratt was never a wife. And her report was given some 40 years after Smith's death. And Pratt herself had been accused of adultery by a few people including a couple Pratt stayed with whom Bennett would visit till late at night in her bedroom while her husband was on a mission. So excuse me if I doubt her words.
My point remains the same. I haven't found a single wife of Smith that had a negative thing to say of him even after he had been long dead and they had the freedom to say anything they wanted to, good or bad of him. I just find it curious, that's all.

Emma had plenty to say. She was miserable. If you can find the uncensored version of Emma Smith: the Mormon Enigma, read it.

I don't think we have very many primary source accounts from 19th century pedophilia/ephebophilia victims mormon or otherwise. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. How many first person accounts of any kind of sexual intercourse do we have from the 1800's?

What a lie. Gross.

Brethren,adieu, you have really piqued my interest in this. I would like to take my ovulis X to Nauvoo. My family came from England and crossed the pioneer trail to get here so you would think they had something to say. I KNOW they were brainwashed, manipulated, and deluded. That's why I want to talk to them! Thanks for the idea.

I have been meaning to take a road trip there myself-- I'm 5 hrs away :)

we need to do it then. Give me another few months to get my other ghost hunting equipment together and then I'm there!

OMG :)

When you're 14, and a 30 something guy is bedding you, it doesn't matter what you have to say about it. He's a pedophile. His actions speak for themselves.

Her parents actions also speak for themselves. They're just as guilty as JS.

I use to believe all the pro-Mormon and anti-Mormon writings about Smith being a hound dog for girls and having his way with them and their being lots of love kids etc.
I then came across an article long ago by a scientist in the DNA field who was Mormon and he said he wanted to find these love children Smith fathered. He spent over a decade doing research and testing of all the "claimed" descendants written about in books for a century and their living descendants. No DNA matches. All the hype by pro and con Mormons had been a bunch of white washed lies. In some cases the real parentage was found.
That info bothered me. How could so many people, the very wives themselves claiming to have had a love child by Smith and relatives and friends claiming the same be so wrong for over a century?
So I looked up a list of his wives. http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/
Between 1841 and 1843 Smith supposedly married to himself 31 'spiritual' wives everyone, pro and con thought he was sexually romancing.
That would mean/insinuate if he had sex just two times a day, 340 days a year(I excluded some days for sickness etc)for three years that's be 1,020 times for sexual intercourse. And no kids. And the only wife of at least 35 (Emma included) that constantly was having kids with Smith was Emma.
So my question then and now is how does a purported sex hound, marrying 31 wives in a three year period for the purpose of sex only achieve children with one wife?
I have come to realize I had been a 'lemming' of information and had never questioned the actual existing evidence. Now that I have seen and reviewed this 'extra' information I had never thought to inquire about, I no longer follow the common thought that Smith was a sex hound and sexing 30 plus wives in just a three year period with no 'evident' kids except by the first wife and they were constantly having kids throughout their marriage.
Just something to consider...

Consider this-

The book of Jacob states that the ONLY reason to practice polygamy is to raise up righteous seed unto the lord. Since Joseph didn't have any other kids with his plural wives, will you concede that according to scripture, Joseph was sinning?

He also married other men's wives. Men such as Orson Hyde who was righteous enough to be sent on a mission to Israel, yet somehow not righteous enough to be sealed to his own wife. Joseph sealed her to himself while Hyde was away serving the lord.

Further, if he practiced polygamy so that the women would gain entry into the CK, then why was it necessary for Brigham Young to be sealed to some of Joseph's plural wives after Joseph's death? Surely being sealed to one prophet would be good enough.

When you look at the totality of polygamy, the obvious conclusion IMO is that Joseph and Brigham were sex hounds.

"...the obvious conclusion IMO is that Joseph and Brigham were sex hounds."

lol...Like others I believed it! Really! From my teens I grew up believing in some justified way Smith was taking wives to himself and had all sorts of kids and that proved he was a sex hound too! I grew up believing polygamy was just an excuse to be laying a bunch of females...lol
But as a saying goes, where there's no smoke you usually won't find a fire. I understand the 'possibilities' that a love child is out there somewhere but as far as the evidence goes, how does a hound dog marrying 31 females in 3 years so young and so old have so much sex and has no children?
Than consider this tid-bit, several of the wives he was supposedly horn dogging day after day, after his death they remarried and began to have kids they didn't have with Smith!
I'm not saying Smith was or wasn't a horn dog. Been there did that I understand it. But this lack of kids thing really puts a dent in the saying that he was marrying these gals for sex. And Smith was pro-children!
Is there a chance that he was really marrying these gals as 'celestial wives' without having sex with them all? I mean maybe he had sex with some or a few, but some living descendants would be nice to prove what people claim.

Some wives may have escaped his "ministry", but most of them likely received it.

However, the most obvious limit to childbirth is contraception, and abortion, which could be accomplished by use of prophylactics, herbs, or by Dr. Bennett. Smith may have loved kids, but that doesn't mean he was comfortable with having dozens of little copies running around Nauvoo. Remember, the whole thing was a big secret! He might have even been assaulted, or jailed, or killed by angry mobsters, if the truth came out! :)

Then there's the probability that many of the wives were bedded only very infrequently, if not only once, thus reducing greatly the likelihood of pregnancy. He was with Emma for many years, and cohabited with her regularly. So she was his primary birth mom.

Have you verified all the "science" and DNA tests done by the Mormon scientist guy you have mentioned? Or do you just take his word for the results? Did he publish in a peer-reviewed journal, did he have collaborators who signed off? Was he sponsored by BYU etc.?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 10:53PM by nofear.

He didn't have to have sex day after day, woman after woman. If he slept with them once each, and left them like a licked cupcake, it's just as vile and disgusting. Maybe it was a sport for him to see how many women he could manipulate in the name of god.

My point was TSCC offers no justifiable reason for Joseph's polygamy. The only reason IMO was he was a horny, power-hungry opportunist.

Thanks guys, now I can't get the ghost busters song out of my head!

A lot of these folks are hearing voices. Wait until you see one speaking in tongues. I swear, there's gotta be some bad genetics.

Interesting about Joe's wives. I think about it this way:

1. TSCC never ever discussed that Ole Joe had more than 30 wives. I was only taught about Emma and was shocked to hear about the others. That TSCC hid these facts and did not teach them, but in fact, taught the opposite that Emma was Ole Joe's only wife that made me question the truth claims of TSCC.

2. According to "wivesofJosephSmith.org" the girls/women were tricked into these marriages with Old Joe. Even after turning him down the first time, Ole Joe would continue to pursue them and use trickery to get them to marry him. He would tell the girls/women the Lord commanded him to marry them. Some of these wives were underage and others were already married to Mormon men. That TSCC hid these facts and did not teach them made me question the truth claims of TSCC. I wondered why the Lord would command Ole Joe to marry other men's wifes and underage girls, especially when they indicted that they were opposed to the marriage. I came to the conclusion that either the Lord or Ole Joe is a lying jerk.

3. The girls/women were told to keep his advances secret and the marriages secret. That TSCC hid these facts and did not teach them made me question the truth claims of TSCC. I wondered why the Lord would command Ole Joe to marry other men's wifes and underage girls and then tell them to keep it all secret, especially from Emma. If it was truly only "spiritual wives" why would Emma care if Ole Joe married a thousand wives and why the secrecy? If this was truly God's will, he would have smote Emma to death because she was unaccepting of his doctrine. I came to the conclusion that Ole Joe wanted the secrecy to avoid prosecution for polygamy and trouble with Emma because he was boinking the women, either that or the Lord is a jerk.

4. The women claimed Old Joe boinked them. Why would the women lie? They were already "spiritual" wives and "owned" by Joe for the eternities. Whether it was once or multiple times, whether there was offspring or abortions or birth control does not alter the girl's and women's testimony that they had intercourse with Ole Joe. I concluded the women are telling the truth in their journals.

5. Ole Joe was most likely tarred and feathered because of his unscrupulous pursuit of a female while married to Emma. Ole Joe destroyed William Law's printing press because the newspaper revealed truths about polygamy that Ole Joe did not want published. Ole Joe was properly jailed for this offense, and this offense lead to his death. I was taught that Ole Joe was persecuted for teaching the truth that people would not accept. I wondered why TSCC did not teach all the facts about these incidences. I concluded TSCC and Ole Joe was lying.

6. Brigham Young and the following "prophets" continued Ole Joe's practice of polygamy. Ole Joe started it and TSCC followed the practice until the US Gov forced the hand. I concluded that the US Govt must be God and the Lord must be weak, or Ole Joe was lying about the revelation.

TSCC claims they teach the truth, but their "truth" is missing all the facts. Ole Joe unscrupulously pursued and boinked girls/women while married to Emma. For myself and myself only, I conclude Ole Joe was a lying jerk and TSCC is built on Ole Joe's lies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 10:55PM by nofear.

Maybe so, but they're behind a big blanket in the temple.