I know the church is not true. I know this, not because some warm fuzzy feeling I try to feel when I think about the subject, but because I have researched the facts, and realized that first, the church has been lying to me and others. Second, it always acts in its own selfish best interest then for the needs of its members.

Joseph Smith did not see God the Father and Jesus Christ. We know this because he did not share his account of his first vision until many years after it happened. Furthermore, he has left several conflicting accounts of what exactly happened, the the churches very own historical records. None of these accounts are consistent with how many spiritual beings were present, or who exactly they were. Elapsed time is not an excuse. This would have been the most important event of his life, and he has trouble recalling it. Changing details are always a major clue that someone is lying.

Next, none of the twelve witnesses of the Book of Mormon actually testified of actually having seen the gold plates. All claimed to have seen the plates in vision, meaning they imagined it. None were consistent in their descriptions of said plates. Again, this is a major clue that they were lying. Perhaps in this case many were also lying to themselves. There is also the matter that none felt strongly enough about their testimony, enough to sign their names to the document.

We know this to be true based on journals and affidavits these very own witnesses made.

Before Joseph Smith ever made a claim of having met angels, or being given sacred records to translate, he was convicted of being a conman, and even plead guilty to the charge. His method of operation was to pretend to have supernatural gifts that could reveal to him the location of buried treasure or lost cattle, then to charge others for such "prophecies." Again, this is all from official court records, made long before anyone cared who Joseph Smith was.

We know several persons and places in the Book of Mormon bare names similar to people and places Joseph Smith personally knew. This is a common tactic of authors when creating stories.

If horses in the Book of Mormon were not really horses, then what were Cureloms and Cumons? Why didn't God give those animals names that were similar to creatures Joseph Smith was familiar with? Why didn't Joseph Smith receive the Nephite name for his horse stand in, instead of the word horse?

Joseph Smith was a man in his 30s who was using his teachings on plural marriage to sleep with teenage girls and the wives of men he had sent away on missions. If this was acceptable to God then, why doesn't the church fight for the legal right to do these things now? Is it possible that Joseph Smith was just a horny man with a lot of power and charisma, instead of a prophet?

Brigham Young mismanaged the migration west. Actually that is not fair. Brigham Young seems to have set up a financial system, disguised as charity that was designed to rip off European immigrants traveling to Utah. They were required to raise their own money, then to donate that very same money to the church. The church then "loaned" that money back to them, with interest. The early church immigrants would have been better off financially, paying their own way, rather then getting this kind of "assistance."

Rather or not Brigham Young ordered the Mount Meadows Massacre, at the end of the day, a single Stake President was able to convince nearly an entire Stake that God wanted them to murder an entire wagon train full of innocent people, then to kidnap their children under the age of five. You'd think the Holy Ghost would have given the entire congregation a stupider of thought.

Likewise, the Willie and Martin handcart companies all decided it was God's will that they leave for Utah far too late in the year. Holy Ghost was wrong again.

What things are your own leaders telling you to do, that "the Holy Ghost is confirming as true", that you should not be doing?

DNA testing has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, to borrow a popular Mormon phrase, that all Native Americans are descended from East Asians, and did not come from Jerusalem. Did God change their DNA to Chinese, when he cursed the Lamanites? And if so, why did he so convincingly change it to match a specific region of Asia.

Extensive fossil and geological evidence proves that dinosaurs were real, the Earth is Billions of years, and that we descended from a common ancestor to the chimpanzee.

How did Adam know about money, if it was just him and Eve? Also, who cares about secret Mormon handshakes or passwords? These things are taught in the temple, because the temple used to be about teaching members about how to hide their polygamous lifestyle. These so called holy signs and tokens were so that co-conspirators could recognize each other. Also, they were stolen from the Masons, who can not, despite what you may have heard, trace their lineage back to the Temple of Solomon.

Masturbation does not make you a total homosexual. Spencer W. Kimball only believed that because he was probably dealing with his own personal issues, and not because he was an expert on sexology.

These are my basic problems with Mormonism, and this has been my 10,000 post.

* Almost nobody leaves because they are offended. The fact that you think that is seriously anti-Mormon because you honestly believe that the majority of people who know Mormons the best would rather risk eternal damnation than spend time with an active, practicing Mormon.

* Bearing false witness against your neighbor is a sin God considers as serious as adultery or theft. Before you say someone left the church because they want to sin or are lazy or offended, you need to make CERTAIN you hear them say that is the reason they left, to your face. Remember, Satan is the father of lies and Woa unto the liar for they shall be thrust down to hell. There is no exception for people who whine "But that's what I HEARD."

* People don't respect Mormons. Mormons are taught they are an example, a light unto the world, that everyone looks up to them but nothing could be further from the truth. When you leave Mormonism and people feel they can be honest with you, they tell you what they REALLY think of Mormons and you don't make a very good impression at all. You seriously need to assess your image and be brave enough to face the truth if you want to be any sort of light. You are in no way making the good impression you think you are, despite the fact non-Mormons like certain individual Mormons. Mormons as a group are not respected.

* You seriously need to look at why people think you are so arrogant. So much of what you do and say comes across as arrogant when even I, the ex-Mormon, can see your intent is to be nice and helpful. Why is that? The quickest way to see your actions is to switch places in any scenario. For example, how would you like it if your neighborhood Evangelical pastor kept inviting your kids to his church, knowing you had your own beliefs, because he felt obligated to save your kids for Jesus. How would you feel if he didn't stop when you asked him nicely - or even when you showed no interest? How would you feel if he dropped by scriptures and presents to encourage your kids to turn their back on their parents' beliefs and follow his, better Christianity? Your presumption that Mormons are the best parents who love their kids the most and that you should "save" the children of parents who don't believe in Mormonism is as highly offensive as people trying to save your children FROM Mormonism because they truly believe Mormon parents aren't good and don't want what's best for their kids. Sadly, this is just one example - the same principle applies in numerous situations where Mormons interact with inactives and the non-LDS.

At this point, you are probably wondering why I'm not posting facts and figures about why Mormonism is wrong, lying, misled, etc. Because I REALLY DON'T CARE IF YOU WANT TO BE MORMON. What I care about is that you learn to play nicely with others, respect people with different beliefs as equals, try to live even a fraction of your Savior's teachings. Believe what you want, throw away your money on a hoax, do what makes you feel good but STOP HURTING THOSE AROUND YOU. That is what nobody likes about Mormons - that they can't see their behavior for what it is.

*like

My 10% goes farther, and does more noble work, when I donate it to REAL CHARITIES like the Salvation Army, St. Jude Children's Cancer Research Hospital, the local adult cancer retreat center for cancer victims, or the local food bank -- rather than donating it to A So Called Church that would rather build a 5 billion dollar, profit driven, luxury mall than it would serve the needy and poor that Jesus served.

I might recommend finding a charity more real than the Salvation Army. They're not even one of the nicer churches.

My message is to live your life with whatever beliefs satisfy you and give you the greatest joy in your life - sustaining you and your family.

If at some point, you decide to change your mind, which many of us do, more than once in a lifetime, it's OK to do that.

In the meantime, be willing to listen and respect and honor everyone's rights to their beliefs with graciousness and unconditional love. Different is just different.

My only advice: Run Forrest, run!

Mormonism is a "religion" of lies.

From the time toddlers are led to the podium to recite whispered promptings that they "know" this is the true church, that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, etc, when in fact, they don't even understand the meanings of the words....

To the Bishop's interviews as teenagers, when they become trained to lie on purpose to avoid public humiliation...

To learning the weasle words "milk before meat" which actually mean: "We have no plans to tell you the whole truth, 'cause if you knew, you would never join our group.....

Then, there is the ever popular "Some things that are true are not very helpful"

And the "Lying for the Lord". I guess Mormons don't know about Jeremiah 48:10 which says: Cursed is the one who doeth the work of the Lord deceitfully."

But perhaps the very worst: when you have a (so called) apostle of the church who says, "Often a testimony is only gained in the bearing of it..." and you are not supposed to notice that what he really said is: "Just go ahead and break the 9th commandment and don't worry about it.
(Thou SHALT NOT bear false witness)

How in the (swear words here) can you claim to have the one true church when you have someone like BKP telling people to break the commandments in order to gain a testimony??????

If that's not a church full of liars, I don't know what is.

Have the courage to honestly study both sides of the issue. I know it's scary, but even Church leaders have said that if it is not true, then it ought to be harmed. The truth doesn't need to hide. If it is true, then that truth will stand, no matter what you study.

If you were going to buy a $50,000 car, would you just take the word of the salesman that it's the only car you should buy? Or would you test drive it, go out and test drive other cars, and maybe even read the reviews on the car that you're interested in?

Why is it that in regard to the Church, they tell you, "Only ask a Mormon. Don't read things which are not favorable to the Church. Guard your testimony, no matter what?"

What do they have to hide? They are asking you to pay 10% + of your income. They'd better have the truth. If it is the truth, then your research should help you to come to that conclusion. If it is not, then you have a right to know that.

Study everything that I've studied. Watch every video that I've watched. Read everything that I've read, and then we'll have something to talk about. Until then, you only have one side of the story. I already know your half of the story. I was a Mormon for 30 years.

Have the courage to study both sides and then we'll talk. If you still believe it to be true, then you'll have a real testimony, instead of one which comes only from knowing one half of the story.

You'll know that this is the path for you. It may be one that I'll never relate to, but that won't matter. It only matters what's right for you.

If you read the uncensored Joseph Smith or Brigham Young would you still respect them?

Journal of Discourses.

Anybody who tells you not to ask questions, or read anything negative about them is hiding something.

The truth can withstand scrutiny. In fact, if it's true, studying will only strengthen your testimony.

If you lose your faith by studying, then it wasn't worth believing in the first place.

The skills and confidence I gained by leaving the church have helped me in every part of my life, both professional, and personal. When you get in the habit of questioning everything, facing the truth (even when it's uncomfortable), and are willing to change what you do in accordance with new and better information, you create a vibrant life where you continually learn and grow.

Your doubts cannot be resolved by stricter obedience.

That JS was a Free Masons and that he stole that temple signs and tokens from them.

I like your summary.

My message to lurkers:

That feeling of panic and dread you get when you read this forum has nothing to do with Casper the Holy Ghost running away ( what kind of gift flees when you need it the most, anyway? )

That feeling is the fight or flight response. It's perfectly natural. In fact, it's about as natural as it gets.

Coming to this forum and reading these threads is tantamount to encountering a predator in the wild. You'll notice that you don't have any weapons that will prevail against this predator. Raising your arm to the square won't stop a lion from tearing your jugular.

My recommendation? Fight to the death. And die you will. We all did it.

When it comes down to a fight between mormonism and reality, reality will win every time.

If you succumb to the flight response then your testimony will remain intact. Notice, though, that it only survived because you ran away. A testimony is no match for reality.

I fought for mormonism. I gave it every chance. In the end, my mormon self died and I was reborn into the default position.

That's where you need to be in order to see things as they are...

Your children will never recover from the bond you didn't form with them because of the time you didn't spend with them.

There may be a next life, but the only thing really certain, is that there is THIS LIFE.

When you sacrifice your own bond with your children, you will be filled with regret later. Many TBMs cover that up by attributing the distance to the ingratitude of their children and they fill their empty hours with yet more church service.

No amount of church service compensates for failure in the home.

Teaching your children to hold on to the same iron rod you are holding on to is not the same thing as listening to your children describe how they hid in the bathroom because the kids were making fun of them. It's not the same thing as validating their feelings of hurt and rejection because the first boy they liked didn't like them back.

God will not compensate for the time you can't give to each child as an individual when you have six children. This is the delusion I was taught as I raised my nine children the best I could.

Each child deserves a full-time parent "on their side." NOt a part time parent whose highest value is conformity to the ten commandments, the gospel, the plan of salvation or a church.

They know you love the church more than them and this is what the church WANTED. Don't breed for a cult. Raise your children 100% for their best interest, not grooming them to serve a movement.

Just look ahead at the couples in their sixties who are "happily" serving a mission in England, taking them selves away from their grandchildren just like they took themselves away from their children.

And then they come home to strangers and leave their inheritance to the church because the bishop came to them in the nursing home and told them how badly they ward needs a bigger parking lot.

When you are old, the Mormon Church will only care about your estate. They will not help you--they will not pay for a nurse or even pay for you to stay in your own home. They will ask who your children are and offer to call them for you so you can go home, if one of them will take you.

Mormons! Families really should come first--first before you give their money to a billion-dollar church, first before you give your time as a parent as free labor to clean their bathrooms.

Look at those little faces looking up at you. Put them first and I promise you, you will never regret it.


Anagrammy

You rock! Speak truth and change the lives of those children for the better. Let them have a shot at a decent mortality without the faulty wiring of Mormonism.

I would like to address a special message to my fellow single brethren and sisters:

It's great out here! You don't have to hear messages every week telling you how sinful/weak/lazy/unattractive you are because you are not currently mated. You can spend your time with people who like you for YOU and don't care about your marital status. You can have sex without guilt. You can have a much larger dating pool and choose people based on their character and compatibility with you rather than on "if they can take you to the temple."

Take a look at the facts. In particular, take a look at previous versions of the D & C--they don't jibe with what we've been told are eternal, unchangeable doctrines (i.e., the nature of the Godhead). Compare them with the current scriptures, make your own decision about what you read, and then decide what you want to do based on this new information. Whether you decide to stay or leave, your life and your worldview will change.

Let it go. Lay down the laws, lay down the rules, lay down the confessions.

Put them down and move forward out of the dark ages.

We don't know a lot of the things still, some important things, but we know a lot more now than we did 30 years ago and Mormonism is not a foundation of truth.

Let it go.

Family. REAL families do not judge one another, shun, and point fingers. You don't have to believe the same thing or go to the same church in order to be a REAL family. Family is about love. Now go look at what your church teaches and tell me it's all about family. It is the opposite and it does a lot of harm.

Hey look, exmormons, yet they are lovely kind caring people, not monsters to be avoided. Have a little think about that....

You owe it to yourself to know what the truth really is. You can never depend on someone who is taking money from you to be totally honest. You have to know all you can about them. If you refuse to do that, you are a fool. They will take your money, time, energy, and your childrens time, money, and energy. They will take and take as long as you let them. All the while knowing that if you knew the truth about them you would run and take everyone with you that you could.

The truth hasn't always been out there for all to see. The church went to great extremes to keep the truth of what it is from its members. They never anticipated that their dirty laundry would be hung out for the world to see. If you can read, you can know the truth. There's mountains of evidence to be had.

My whole life has been used up by the mormon church. However, the buck stops here. When my husband and children learned the truth, they left with me. My children are adults. We are bonding with each other the way we should have all those years. We no longer have a third party coming between us telling us we have to be here, go there, do this, do that, all to the detriment of our family time. The best thing that ever happened to my marriage was taking the church out of the middle of it. The insurance salesman down the street has no business asking my husband and I anything about our personal life. That we let him ask us about everything from our sex life to our finances is appalling. Really, what were we thinking!? What are you thinking?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 04:57PM by mia.

Lurking is the first step toward freedom. Take the red pill.

dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. And despite the fact you're told at church that people respect you, they actually tolerate you at best, and laugh and/or dislike you at worst.

We don't hate you. We are married to people like you. We have kids that think like you. And sisters and brothers and even some friends just like you. We want you to care enough to research your own faith and put it to the test. Free your mind. Make deep, personal connections with all kinds of people. Be a part of the world not afraid of the world or seperate from it. Quit sitting lofty upon the hill. You are not as special as you think you are. You are not living in the last dispensation. Satan isn't around every corner waiting to devour and destroy you and your family. If Satan is real, you are exactly where he wants you.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 01:03AM by snuckafoodberry.

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill -- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

eye opener..... find a new church thats starting up and be critical of its teachings. we got one here in kc. IHOP. look it up. damn it sounds so much to the starting of the tscc. still dont see it? find a religist (spelt right opps) and watch him get busted with all his dirty little secrets. I was watching an tv preacher yesterday. his point all new church start up find a verse or verses that teach something thats not main stream in the any religion or belief and thats important and expand on it. what catches me is joey had a point but counldnt back it up with bible so the bom came to be. the doc came to be. he got busted with cheating on his wife and poof theres a new teachin. i wish my mom let me study up on the tscc instead of letting the damn place teach me from age 7. man did i miss out on a lot.

Take a deep breath and read the history. Let the light shine through the murky glass of Mormonism. Savor a world where you don't have to twist facts to fit the story in your head. Realize the problem isn't the facts, it's the story.

Enjoy being human on a planet where, sometimes, there are no answers to questions. Be happy to have a mind strong and clear enough to ask the questions and accept the lack of answers.

Take your family out for ice cream on Sunday and discover that life is beautiful out here.

Post on RfM, tell us about your successful journey to freedom.

The church just built a billion dollar mall. The TV station, movie studio, and newspaper for communication purposes, okay. I could buy that. But a shopping mall? Why? So that the shoppers can see the fantastic view across the street and ask the missionaries about it? Is it really going to be some great missionary tool? Or is it so that they can raise much-needed funds for wells in Africa? How is it not related, in any way, to Jesus cleansing the temple?

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,876092,876092#msg-876092

Think about it. For more than 10 minutes.