This article shows that even TBM see a huge problem when it comes to attendance. Read the article, but more importantly, read the comments: http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2013/05/archive-sunday-the-church-is-losing-us-how-can-they-keep-us/

Very interesting--thanks for posting it!

They had some good comments.

Wow. The comments! How do they stay when they see the issues so clearly? They just can't see that changing lies into truths is a virtual impossibility.

That's the problem though! Their mentality is that, even with the problems, if the church came clean it would make everything better. They are wishing for reformation that won't happen and will start to try and be proactive which will cause them to actually do good research and then most of those proactive people will probably leave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 02:02PM by nickson.

thanks for posting this. read all the comments too! the mormon cult is in its death throes

you can't polish a turd.

Great article and great comments. Thanks for sharing!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 01:28PM by heretic.

You can photo shop it and issue a press release. Then hide the turd in a vault.;-)

actually you can, I saw it on mythbusters, turned out pretty shiny.

I can understand the reformation that these posters in the link above want to have happen. To me it is about turning the church into a good social club.

Could it make thing better by spending more at the local level? sure it could. Apologies would go much farther with the people that are leaving than the hiding of this fact and that fact. Information is so readily available today that you just can't pretend it didn't happen.

you can't change the intro to the revelation on blacks and the priesthood and make a statement like 'we don't know the origins' and not have people that lived through the talks on how the blacks were less valiant in the priesthood say "huh?"

Sure there are those that will look at a change like that and justify it so they can still believe, but there are a significant portion of members that will just look at that and see a pattern of change and hiding of the issues. Information today simply moves too fast to deal with a problem like that by trying to sidle away from it.

One of the comments on that site talked about removing section 132, not a bad idea because of how it is centered around polygamy, but that is an issue because that is also the basis for eternal marriage and the eternal family, one of the best calling cards the church has to offer. Historically the church was far more willing to change scriptures that it is today. The book of commandments became D&C with all sorts of additions and removals of revelations. These days instead of declaring a new revelation the obsoletes the old, we hear things like "I don't know that we teach that."

There are so many catch 22s to making changes though. I think just stepping up to the plate and saying I'm sorry will go far further than this jumping around trying to say prophets are fallible (when we look at old revelations) and today we are supposed to follow the brethren without question. The idea that prophets are fallible and yet everything they say in conference is scripture and when the prophet speak the thinking is done is simply incompatible. are they fallible or not? if they are fallible that means we should decide for ourselves if we believe and not just follow blindly and they should tell members that. It is just too easy for any member to do a google search and see what things prophets and apostles have said in the past.the fallible yet not fallible justification drives any person that is remotely rational crazy just trying to make sense of it.

The rising generation of members are used to googling and searching things out. This issue is only going to get worse as older members pass on. The only hope to stem the tide of exodus is to come clean. Unfortunately I think that for the leadership of the church that may not be possible. I person think we will see lots of change over the next while, but it won't be the come clean and admit wrong doing kind in my opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 07:12PM by sparkyguru.

I've been lurking among the Mormon feminists and I don't see how most of them keep believing. What percentage of bullshit makes it not be the true church? They heap up piles and piles and still believe. SMH

Twenty somethings lecturing 30+ singles on how to be celibate, but have never lived it because they got married in their early twenties late teens.

Gender neutral positions like Sunday School President and Membership Clerk could be done by women.

Drop Section 132 and get rid of polyandry and polygamy and explain the difference!
And admit both were practiced by JS!

“It’s not a realistic gospel when it teaches a doctrine that is only created for upper-middle class”

After paying tithing and other expenses; gas to travel to endless weekly meetings, ward budget drives, vacation time spent on church activities the whole family can’t attend like Scout camp and Girls camp and treks, etc.
“see a multi billion dollar mall that they could never afford to shop in and start to feel like the benefits don’t measure up to the cost”.

“Encourage women and men to have educations, jobs, be involved parents, and serve in all leadership roles, and allow individuals and couples to use their judgment on how to determine roles and balance in their own home.”

What is going on with the tithing money? Open the books…..


The issues largely affecting the young adults (earrings, dress standards, marriage age, various pressures, etc.) are generational – NOT doctrinal. Young people need a valid voice – not one filtered through a self-selected hierarchy of bishops -> stake presidents -> area presidents -> higher…

Ever notice how it’s almost a given that a general authority was once a successful businessman, as opposed to a theologian or something similar? A corporation, naturally, has as its highest priority the need to make a profit. The promise that new converts make to pay 10% of their “income” is just more enticing than sending missionaries out to simply perform charitable acts, IMO.

Our music is bland and so are our speakers.

Focus on service to others. Organized religion doesn’t make sense to many people, but organized helping and service does. We can serve like nobody’s business.

Get rid of geographic requirements determining ward attendance.

Use some of the billions now available to pay someone to clean the building who needs the job and who knows how to do it right.

Shorten the length of meetings.

1.) The church is too big and impersonal. Children don’t get to shake the prophet’s hand anymore. Despite what we’ve read in manuals or watched in church videos, you won’t run into a GA in airport line or sit next to one on a flight. Little children aren’t running foot races or throwing snowballs with Brother Joseph.
2) Communication is broken. The church disseminates information (top to bottom), they do not diffuse information (back and forth). Essentially, they don’t listen. Our leaders live in a cloistered tower (and only through nepotism do you enter.)
2.) We worship the rich. Our leaders are rich corporate men who have stay-at-home wives and families who live in a McMansion and conform to a “norm” that is attainable by a statistically infinitesimal number of people on this planet.
Mormon actually identified the problem.
Require garments on Sundays and in the temple. All other wearing left to the discretion of the wearer.

Stop charging for temple admittance. Tithing, and most importantly charity, is a personal form of gratitude that should not be a precursor to worthiness. It takes a lot of time to be a TBM and time is a valued commodity. The true blessings of entering God’s house should not come with a price tag.

And the best summary:

I’m struggling to stay active and I’m just tired. I’m worn down and worn out. Most meetings don’t focus on Christ but on appearance, politics, the evil of the world, and other distractions from the gospel. I’m tired of men making decisions that affect me without consulting me nor anyone who would represent me. I’m tired of trying to shield my children from damaging messages about their sexuality and worth. I’m tired of feeling judged and anxious I’m going to be reprimanded more than loved. I love Christ and want to know more of Him, sing more of Him, devote church efforts and resources to projects that directly serve His children in need.
I need more Christ from my church.

ditto.

except to them, that would be surrender/becoming like other churches. Not Gonna Happen.

I sure like this comment:

What would make church (and I’ll include temple) -going easier or possible for me:

- Decanonize Section 132.

- For as much as we talk atonement, atonement, atonement, there is actually very little said about Christ in our meetings. As a people, we are fairly ignorant of His life.

To stop decline I suggest:

- Stop whitewashing church history. Just rip the band-aid off and get it over with.

- Require garments on Sundays and in the temple. All other wearing left to the disgression of the wearer.

Wow, very intersting,maybe the wolves in sheeps clothing are finally becoming apparent.I can personally vouch for abysmal Church membership in Europe.Mormonism is an American myth,Europeans are generally far too cynical to believe in its fallacy.Ironically I spotted two missionaries in the area earlier today.Hadn't seen them in years.

...like a rock rolling down a hill.

I just listened to the Mormon Expression podcast on 10 reasons to stay and 10 reasons to go. I highly recommend them both.

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/12/06/175-top-10-reasons-to-stay-in-the-church/

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/12/08/176-top-10-reasons-to-leave-the-church/

Are the contributors to these podcasts also posters here. I think they do a nice job.

In case anyone is interested they decided the number one reason to OT belong to the Moron churchis that the leaders lie to their membership. They also touch on the difficulty that once a member finds out about a lie they become complicit in the lie by remaining a member.

I truly don't relate to a parent that knowingly passes on the Mormon lie to a child. Even if they married in the temple, the lies have to stop between parent and child. If it doesn't stop there, where can it stop? They also expanded the concept that the lying has been developed and refined over time. The lying is just getting better and better.

Dropping out at age 60, I realized that even though there are some good things about TSCC, they are overshadowed by the harmful things. I threw it all out of my life because I can't abide attending meetings that insist on teaching drivel and lies. I don't want to base my life on an early 19th century mythology or have people attempt to make me groupthink. I can't think of a configuration for this church that would be plausible and make me like it. I do not want to be obedient to such men. By now if I don't have what it takes to live a fulfilling and moral life independently, no organization could help me do that anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 03:03PM by rationalguy.

I could have written this myself. You have spoken for me too!

Yes, the stats show that some areas are combining wards and stakes. Happened in our area.
Others, are still building. I think AZ is still growing in some areas.

Attendance at churches in the USA is usually fluctuating. Numbers grow and drop off probably everywhere.

I hear from friends who change churches usually because of how things are run, or how they were treated, or gossip, or the minister doesn't relate well, and so on.

The only "harm" I ever experienced, if it could be called that was unfair treatment by church leaders, but I have to admit, I had middle management at work engage in unfair treatment.
But, that's just life.
Can't get away from it. I'm happy to note that I am not subjected to any unacceptable treatment from a church or work!
I retired. I left the LDS Church. Problem solved, except in some family situations.

As an adult convert, my perspective of Mormonism will always be different, maybe very different from a BIC member that left.

I live in an area that is filled with churches that seem to be filled every week, especially the Catholic ones.

The members have some good ideas for some badly needed changes.

The old farts at the top are not interested. It does not feed their ego. They like things just the way they are. They've spent years getting things just like they are. They love telling you that you'd better believe everything they're saying 'or else.'

They aren't interested in happy members. I think they prefer that everyone be somewhat depressed.

One thing that I constantly see in responses by believing mormons is "I love the gospel". The thing is, what the hell is the mormon gospel? Is it that black people and women are inferior? Is it that men have the right to as many wives as they want? Is it that you owe the church 10% even if it means your kids will starve? Is that its cool to cut someone head off if they have something you really really want? There must be some official publication of the "gospel" that I have never seen before.

I mean, not every idea of Hitlers was bad, but I have never heard a normal person say "I love the 3rd reich" .

Yeah, the suggestions: come clean about the history of the early church, admit the problems with the BoM, relax admission to the temple; oh, and, focus more on the gospel! Whaaa?

So the churches response to losing 18-30 year old members, is to make church membership even worse for 18-30 year old members.

I remember when we tried to start a YSA ward in Knoxville, and were told we couldn't because the church was having a hard time retaining Young Single Adult members, and felt it needed to eliminate such wards in order to better facilitate home teaching and reactivation projects among YSA membership. Yes, their plan to keep 18-30 year old members was to take away something that age group liked in order to clarify who was in charge of stocking the ones who had left.

They also eliminated all stake level YSA activities in order to focus on smaller ward level groups. This was hell for the YSA, because unless you were near a college, there were not enough YSA members to have fun meaningful social activities.

I said then, in one of my earliest moments of apostasy, that if the church focuses on retaining the members it already had, instead of the ones who were already gone, then maybe there wouldn't be so many in that later group.

One fun thing, I was made YSA president in my ward shortly after, and we went from having about a dozen YSA members, to only four, within a matter of months, with no marriages or move outs, because no one was interested in the new program.

I also remember a letter being read to us by the first presidency, that seemed angry in tone, that they even had Young Single Adults, and it was our fault for not marrying the first person we met after serving a mission (for guys) or turning 18 (for girls).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 05:44PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

feminist mormon housewife= eventual ex-mo, if they have any sanity at all

Those were some of the best comments I've read actually. Too bad TSCC will never do anything about them. And I agree with anonski21, "feminist mormon housewife= eventual ex-mo, if they have any sanity at all"

It sounds like they are actually getting to that point if you ask me. Give them a few more years and they will be completely fed up.

Don't underestimate the power of being responsible for "breaking up the family"

I wouldn't mind finding a nice looking feminist exmo:) Hope they leave TSCC and join the sanity club soon so as to increase the dating pool.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 08:41PM by orange.

orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldn't mind finding a nice looking feminist
> exmo:) Hope they leave TSCC and join the sanity
> club soon so as to increase the dating pool.

Hi! How ya doin?

I know a few of the regular commenters on FMH--in fact, I had a long chat with one earlier this week. She wants desperately to leave, especially now that her kids are old enough to be damaged by the sexism, racism, etc, but her husband isn't ready yet and she wants the two of them to leave together. It may be that other FMH regulars are in the same boat.

The comments were extremely interesting; I read them all. I have to give kudos to the blog's moderator for not deleting any of them.

I particularly like the comments that admit that the church stinks for several demographic groups. And the DNA debate made me mental. The data is not opinion. Blargh.

The comments reveal that Mormonism is not working. It's a dysfunctional mess that was cobbled together by a devious con man. The Mormons have done everything possible to transform Joseph's myth into a functioning church, but they just can't bail the water out fast enough. The ship is sinking. Everyone to the life boats!