My mother is a devout Mormon and last week I was speaking to her about the last moments before Joseph Smith was killed in the Carthage Jail. She explained to me, rather passionately, that the Nauvoo Legion was on its way to rescue Joseph, but did not have enough time. For me it is interesting that she and other Mormons find it necessary to emphasize this point so strongly.


Fawn Brodie’s book does not say that they were on their way, but instead we are left with a mystery as to why the Nauvoo Legion did not rescue Joseph Smith. In Brodie’s book, Joseph left an order to have the Legion sent immediately to rescue him, but for some reason, it did not happen. Did the message never reach the Legion?


If there were evidence that the legion were on their way, Fawn Brodie would have discovered this in her research; her research was very thorough. Additionally, her book is very objectively and honestly written and I cannot picture her leaving out information for some ulterior motive.


Meanwhile, there is another possibility. Maybe the message did in fact reach them (when I say them I mean the acting leadership including Brigham Young), but they voluntarily chose not to rescue Joseph. There is no way to prove it, but I do find it interesting that Brigham Young was so enterprising, while at the same time, the church was crumbling within under the leadership of Joseph Smith.


Right or wrong, I have always regarded Brigham Young as a shady and power hungry character, and I would not put it past him to hang Joseph out to dry for his own advancement into the enticing role of “Prophet, Seer and Revelator”. He was very good at keeping himself informed, and he had to of known what was about to happen. Brigham was cleaver enough to imitate Joseph’s voice after he died and play upon the superstitions of the frightened and irrational majority. Brigham Young was not ignorant.



Emma Smith could not stand Brigham Young, and chose not to go west with him and the rest of the majority. We know that she hated polygamy, and Brigham supported it. However, is it possible that she disliked him for other reasons as well? Maybe she suspected that it was his ambition to rob Joseph of his leadership. From what I have read about Emma, I would never underestimate her intuitions; she could tell that Brigham was a scoundrel.


Why wasn’t the legion close by all along, especially considering how dire the circumstances were? Is it possible to fain ignorance under these circumstances? Clearly, Joseph was afraid of being killed by the mob from the beginning of his incarceration. Did Brigham Young not have the same concerns? Why would Brigham Young even need a message in the first place?



There is no way to prove it but for me it is an interesting consideration. I am interested in anyone else’s opinions either for or against the possibility that Joseph was allowed to die by the Mormon leadership. I look forward to your responses.


Thanks

Young decided Lee was not cooperating as other defendents of the MMM incident had done which kept the incident before the public. Young had instructed Lee to cop to a plea deal but Lee refused maintaining his innocense that he was simply following orders given through church channels.

For Lee's first trial, prosecutors couldn't find but one witness who was a former member who came forward in Nevada due to his guilty conscience. For Lee's second trial, the court had to interview prospective witnesses which were coming out of the woodwork. Some who claimed they could testify against Lee weren't ever in Southern Utah and could not possibly have known anything firsthand about what happened at the massacre. Of those who were allowed to testify, they claimed to have very clear recollections of what Lee (supposedly) did in 1857 decades before the trial, but they could hardly even remember anyone else who was there. It was a rather obvious con job designed to convict Lee while the first trial was set up to exonerate him. I am convinced that Brigham Young pulled the strings behand the scenes.

I always thought it was god who left joe twisting from the second floor. In my mind, the legion had gotten his request, studied it out in their minds, then prayed whether it was right. God gave them a stupor of thought and made them forget it.

Not at all. He was preaching and practicing communal economics in a country bent on capitalism then, as city mayor and commander of the local malitia, blatantly violated the First Amendment by destroying the Expositor after it exposed his polygamous affairs and shady land dealings.

In essence, the guy f**ked himself.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 10:44AM by Timothy.

At issue is the note that contained the order from JS to Jonathan Dunham.


There is much controversy about this letter. Here's a coupel of places to start:

1) http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingch6c.htm (see The Dunham Letter)...Mark Hofmann

2) "On the morning of June 27, Joseph wrote a letter to Emma, saying, “[I am] very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified and have done the best that could be done….” After he finished his note, however, he found out that the Illinois governor, who was supposed to be protecting him, had departed for Nauvoo, leaving him vulnerable to his enemies. According to History of the Church 6:605, Smith had Emma tell church leader Jonathan Dunham to direct the people to stay home and to “let there be no groups or gathering together, unless by permission of the governor.” Smith biographer Fawn Brodie writes, however, that Smith later “hastily scribbled an order to Jonathan Dunham to bring the Legion, break the jail, and save him at all costs. Within seconds two messengers bearing this order and the letter to Emma were off at a frantic gallop on the fifteen-mile trip to Nauvoo.” (Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith (New York: Vintage, 1995), 391–392. The message in the note addressed to Dunham was not obeyed, although it is not known why. That was a curious command, at any rate, for if the Legion had come—and there were many more in the Legion than in the outfit supposedly guarding the jail—there would have been much more bloodshed.)

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-martyrdom-of-joseph-smith


3) "Before a trial could be held, a mob of about 200 armed men, their faces painted black with wet gunpowder, stormed the jail in the late afternoon of June 27, 1844. As the mob was approaching, the jailer became nervous, and informed Smith of the group. In a letter dated July 10, 1844, one of the jailers wrote that Smith, expecting the Nauvoo Legion, said "Don't trouble yourself ... they've come to rescue me." Smith was unaware that Jonathan Dunham, major general of the Nauvoo Legion, had not dispatched the unit to Carthage to protect him. Allen Joseph Stout contended that by remaining inactive, Dunham had violated an official order written by Smith after he had been jailed in Carthage."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

4) http://www.i4m.com/think/history/fallen_prophet.htm

You can google "Dunham note carthage jail" or similar type search and get loads of hits...lots toread out there.

My personal opinion is that JS did write the note and that Dunham chose not to obey. Perhaps Dunham was concerned of starting a large-scale battle (the deployment of the Nauvoo Legion into Carthage would have been seen as an act of war I think). Perhaps Dunham was persuaded by BY. But I am fairly confident that he did receive an order...or at least a plea for help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 03:31PM by jw the inquizzinator.

Golly, you could make a case that Emma killed Joseph by persuading him to return to face the music at Carthage... In a repeat performance from when he ran from Kirtland years earlier, Joseph had skipped out again, and it required Porter Rockwell, Reynolds Calhoon, Hiram Kimball, and Lorenzo Wasson to persuade Hyrum and him to return. They carried a letter from Emma...

This was done under a promise of protection from the Governor of Illinois.

Yes, Jonathan Dunham, the "general" of the Nauvoo Legion, probably received a note smuggled from JS asking him to send the Legion to rescue him from Carthage Jail...

Dunham did not act on those orders because they would've precipated a civil war and a repeat of what happened to the Mormons in Missouri...

According to Samuel W. Taylor ("Nightfall at Nauvoo"), Dunham decided to ingore the orders... Taylor said he felt he could claim the note was a forgery because he knew the consequences and may genuinely have believed the prophet was safe...

Joseph Smith was responsible for his own death because of his rash act of ordering the destruction of the Expositor.

And bear in mind, it might've simply been the rumor that the Nauvoo Legion had been summoned that proved the spark that set off the explosion with the mob. Illinois at the time was a powder keg...

And a Cabbie note to Topper... That would be quite a trick of BY's to have orchestrated Smith's assassination since he was in the eastern part of the United States when events at Carthage transpired. Remember this was 1844; there were no airplanes or anything remotely resembling instant communication...

But thanks for being the main course for my serving up an occasional meal of usually indigestible "Conspiracy Theorists." It's probably a little hard on you because I know I can be ruthless with my humor. but it does help some people to learn to think straight who might not do so otherwise...

Shoot, you're almost as much fun as Denial C. Peterson...

(Edited because I read JW's piece above after I made my post and decided a little "uncertainty" on the existence of the note to Dunham was probably a more objective point of view)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 03:45PM by SL Cabbie.

Sidney and B. Young had to rush back to pick up the mess left behind.

I think that everything was coming to a boiling point and JS getting killed bought time for tscc.

Kind of makes you wonder what would have happened is JS has not gotten his???

I venture a guess that mo'ism would have died out...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 04:03PM by braq.

“Joseph Smith was responsible for his own death because of his rash act of ordering the destruction of the Expositor.”

This statement seams rather extreme. I would agree that he needed to be punished for such a rash act like spending some hard time in jail, but holding him responsible for his own death makes you sound like the conspiracy theorists that you enjoy criticizing. I’m no fan of Joseph smith but I would suggest that he was responsible for his own incarceration but not his own death.

I won't justify what was done to JS, but in a world of actions-and-consequences, his attempt to suppress the revelations contained in the William Law publication was what precipated the events that got him killed.

His ordering the destruction of "The Expositor" ran contrary to deeply-held values of the citizenry of the time--nevermind the anger directed at Mormons because because of polygamy, their power, and the depredations of some Mormons perpetuated under the cover of church membership.

It also subjected him to arrest ordered by the Governor of Illinois, who--contrary to Gordon B. Hinckley's claims--was a generally decent individual.

Here's a link, BTW, to an interview with William Law, published years afterwards. Law's reaction is noteworthy; he, too, felt that JS did not merit the fate ordained him and would rather have seen him exposed and discredited in a court of law.

http://mrm.org/topics/documents-speeches/interview-william-law

Sorry to badger you but still your position seems a bit callused. Your rhetoric could be used to rationalize any misfortune that any criminal befalls. It might even be used to rationalize the misfortune of people who are not criminals, for instance, I often hear people imply that the homeless have what is coming to them. Do people just simply get what they disserve? Again, I’m not a fan of Joseph Smith but I’m not prepared to imply even subtly that he disserved to die.

Can I recommend a therapist for those perceptual distortions? Be a little painful but you'll thank me if you make it through to the other side...

Seriously, like most untreated Mormons I can see you don't have a grasp that these "because-I-said-so" process comments are insulting because of their essentially narcissistic--and delusional--controlling quality.

You ask a silly question that provokes the paranoids, implying that there might have been a conspiracy to "let Joseph die," and then when somebody supplies some objective facts, you go into attack mode instead of considering whether the reports are valid.

D-E-N-I-A-L

Now there were a number of factions in the early church in Nauvoo, and Joseph had his enemies, but he was largely beloved by most (particularly the women).

Your grasp of the history is primitive and incomplete, to say the least, and full of gaps. You were unaware that Brigham Young was not in Nauvoo at the time ["Maybe the message did in fact reach them (when I say them I mean the acting leadership including Brigham Young)]; the notion that people "heard Joseph's voice" when Brigham Young spoke was a faith-promoting story that didn't appear until years later, and your "idealization of Emma Smith" is particularly laughable (see William Law's statement, "You have underestimated her; she was corrupt").

Well, lessee, you've idealized a couple of women with Brodie and Emma right after a conversation with your mother (Brodie was a top flight historian and I admire her greatly, but she was human, and her ideas about psychology were strictly 1945-ish, as Bernard DeVoto pointed out). DeVoto at least got the delusional aspect of JS's pschopathology right, although he attributed it to paranoia rather than a more likely narcissistic personality disorder.

Those are some possible psychological origins you might take to a shrink...

And you were being particularly disingenuous when you said, "I am interested in anyone else’s opinions either for or against the possibility that Joseph was allowed to die by the Mormon leadership."

No you weren't. Your behavior demonstrates you were looking to validate your own point of view and got your feelings hurt when it was shown to be nonsense.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Golly, you could make a case that Emma killed
> Joseph by persuading him to return to face the
> music at Carthage... In a repeat performance from
> when he ran from Kirtland years earlier, Joseph
> had skipped out again, and it required Porter
> Rockwell, Reynolds Calhoon, Hiram Kimball, and
> Lorenzo Wasson to persuade Hyrum and him to
> return. They carried a letter from Emma...
>
> This was done under a promise of protection from
> the Governor of Illinois.
>
> Yes, Jonathan Dunham, the "general" of the Nauvoo
> Legion, probably received a note smuggled from JS
> asking him to send the Legion to rescue him from
> Carthage Jail...
>
> Dunham did not act on those orders because they
> would've precipated a civil war and a repeat of
> what happened to the Mormons in Missouri...
>
> According to Samuel W. Taylor ("Nightfall at
> Nauvoo"), Dunham decided to ingore the orders...
> Taylor said he felt he could claim the note was a
> forgery because he knew the consequences and may
> genuinely have believed the prophet was safe...
>
> Joseph Smith was responsible for his own death
> because of his rash act of ordering the
> destruction of the Expositor.
>
> And bear in mind, it might've simply been the
> rumor that the Nauvoo Legion had been summoned
> that proved the spark that set off the explosion
> with the mob. Illinois at the time was a powder
> keg...
>
> And a Cabbie note to Topper... That would be quite
> a trick of BY's to have orchestrated Smith's
> assassination since he was in the eastern part of
> the United States when events at Carthage
> transpired. Remember this was 1844; there were no
> airplanes or anything remotely resembling instant
> communication...
>
> But thanks for being the main course for my
> serving up an occasional meal of usually
> indigestible "Conspiracy Theorists." It's probably
> a little hard on you because I know I can be
> ruthless with my humor. but it does help some
> people to learn to think straight who might not do
> so otherwise...
>
> Shoot, you're almost as much fun as Denial C.
> Peterson...
>
> (Edited because I read JW's piece above after I
> made my post and decided a little "uncertainty" on
> the existence of the note to Dunham was probably a
> more objective point of view)

And BY was nowhere near Mountain Meadows, either. Just fancy that. BY, the Nowhere Near Man! Should have put that on his tombstone.

Immediately regress to an adolescent posture and give my ol' school teacher buttons a workout... Gotta watch the road rage and keep my hands on the wheel...

What, you're in need of a lesson on BY and MMM, Matt? BY may have been in Salt Lake when the killings were accomplished, but his adopted son, John D. Lee, was in the neighborhood, as were his hand-picked underlings... And his right-hand messenger guy, George A. Smith, left Salt Lake coincident with the Fancher train and met with all of those involved in massacre and continuously trashed the reputation of the Arkansans as he preached in the settlements on the way down and on his return. He continued to do so long after the murders were committed (source: "Innocent Blood"; Bagley and Bigler).

Of course you Brits have always had trouble with North American geography; it's more than twice the distance from Illinois to New York as from Salt Lake to the killing fields, and nobody was riding Pony Express horses from Nauvoo to the East to get BY's orders... The Expositor was destroyed on June 10, and JS was dead on June 27th... I'm a big believer in BY learning the art of plausible deniability, but that one's implausible...

And the orders couldn't have come via telegraph, since the first telegraph line between Washington and Baltimore only first became operative on May 1, 1844.

A bit early for the tinfoil hat crowd to be including telegraphs in their conspiracy hypotheses...

Of course that has never stopped those folks. They believe in telepathy...

It's highly likely that BY did not give a direct order to the TBMs at Mountain Meadows to murder the travellers. He'd have been far too smart for that.

But the TBMs there knew exactly what BY wanted done, so they did it.

Is it possible that BY pointed out before he became Nowhere Near Cathage Jail, that it might be a good idea if JS met with a sad accident? A fall from a horse? Trip on the stairs? A very rapid and fatal illness? A mob of non-Mormons to murder him? Even better.

BY proved that he was wicked enough for anything. Up to and including arranging for JS to meet with a tragic and untimely death? Perhaps.

This is, of course, nothing but speculation.

I can't fathom how you come up with that theory after reading Fawn Brodie's book. Joseph's inner circle was fiercely loyal to him especially Brigham.

The same attempted logic the Tremendous Trio used in Massacre at Mountain Meadows could be used for Carthage. A rogue group of fanatics acting in a swirling environment of fear and violence.

Kinda blows the "martyr" aspect of it...

That those three step out of there g's and look at something from a perspective other than a Mormoncentric universe...

I don't that's gonna happen...

Anyway, I'm hearing the paperbound version will be out shortly, and I'm counting on you to talk me down afterwards (and yes, my road rage is fearsome to behold, I'm still amenable to reason).

Unless, of course, I find a discount copy in one of the used bookstores I frequent...

"Brigham was cleaver enough to imitate Joseph’s voice after he died and play upon the superstitions of the frightened and irrational majority."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_folklore

This along with other mormon stories are considered folklore. Check it out. Especially the one about the miracle of the gulls.

Brigham was nowhere near Nauvoo when Joseph had his gun battle. It was some time before word reached him. He then rushed back to claim authority as head of the twelve apostles. I personally think that Brig was a total believer in the prophet. He didn't mind being rich either, thanks to the growth of Mormonism in the West.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 06:16PM by george.

"Brigham was nowhere near Nauvoo when Joseph had his gun battle"

OK, this makes sense. I did not know this part of the history and it appears my suspicions were wrong. Earlier in the post I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist, perhaps I can clear my name by demonstrating that I am capable of changing my mind upon learning new information.

Don't forget that before BY rushed back to Nauvoo he had to stop off to poison Samuel Smith. Or so it has been claimed.

As others have pointed out, BY wasn't even in the area at the time of the assassination. It took over three years to organize his faction of Saints, get himself declared President, and lead the faithful to Utah. Meanwhile, several other factions were also organizing and going their separate ways.

He deserves credit for consolidating absolute power in Utah Territory, but charging him with organizing the assassination is a bit of a stretch.

Maybe Dunham was just too afraid to rescue Smith.

Or maybe the were all on Mormon Standard Time (always late for EVERYthing) even back then.

Just sayin'...

Rone

Ron, that's a good point!

Some have claimed that Joseph's order to destroy the newspaper was the reason for his murder. It may have been one excuse, but it was not the reason. Destruction of property under law, however objectionable does not justify deadly force. Joseph Smith knew that the mob was waiting for him. I know this because by great great Grandfather, who was one of his body guards stopped him on the road and warned him. This is a matter of common historical knowledge. I think he hung himself out to dry. You will have to find the reason that he did it.

As a narcissist, he was absolutely dependent on the adulation and devotion of his followers, which I see as the reason for his return to Nauvoo (with memories of his Kirtland fiasco also present).

It was the same grandiosity/entitlement that motivated him to order the destruction of the newspaper... He may well have ignored your g-g-grandfather's warnings (a form of denial) for the same reason...

And he had brazenly come through similar situtations in the past, and it's likely he may have convinced himself he could do the same...

As for the mentality of the mob, I refuse to speculate much on that one; my Cabbie mantra has always been "Sane people don't react well to insanity," and I consider mobs to be human insanity at its worst (y'all make sure you read "Huckleberry Finn," however). They were fueled partly by irrational hatred, some fed by whiskey, some by Joseph's enemies such as John C. Bennett, and some by stories from legitimate sources such as William C. Law. It was likely a particularly toxic mixture. As for the Mason's involvement, well, who knows what they think, but most Masons I know do drink quite a bit...

JS was a free mason and as such, borrowed much from them and
used the secret signs, symbols and hand shakes in the mormon
temple ceremonies. Because this took place, the Free Masons were
not happy with JS. Although JS called out a secret oath, (in the window of the jail) to save him, it was commonly believed
a member of the Free Masons shot him.

cannonball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JS was a free mason and as such, borrowed much
> from them and
> used the secret signs, symbols and hand shakes in
> the mormon
> temple ceremonies. Because this took place, the
> Free Masons were
> not happy with JS. Although JS called out a secret
> oath, (in the window of the jail) to save him, it
> was commonly believed
> a member of the Free Masons shot him.

If so, that might have been why he was shot?

I know; I was in his office two weeks ago, and we were discussing that very subject. This included the lead scroll that TBM scholars immediately denounced as a fake; Will leans the other way, wondering where Mark Hofmann or any other potential forger would've got the 19th century lead sheet...

I'm absolutely objective and undecided on that one, and interested in investing the subject further (as one PhD scientist on this board will attest).

The circumstantial evidence is that there are missing minutes of meetings in both Salt Lake (where the emigrants' fate was likely decided) and Cedar City... This despite the Mormons were a people schooled in keeping journals...

John D. Lee in his last "Confessions" describes a conversation with George A. Smith where Smith asks Lee what would happen if the Southern Utah pioneers encountered a wagon train, asking if they "would make it lively" for the emigrants.

Such doublespeak is common in Utah LDS culture; even I've run across it...

Here's Will's word on the subject I posted on another link...

http://www.mountainmeadowsmassacrefoundation.org/documents/MMMF%20References/reference%20103%20bagley%20&%20BY.pdf

To think that 50-60 PH holders would attack a wagon train of mostly women and children without explicit orders from "the mouthpiece of God" is absurd.