I've been doing a lot of reading and studying of late. Currently reading "The 19th Wife" the story of one of Brigham Young's wives who left the church. I've been out for three years now and couldn't be happier. I have both tbm family and friends who are very unhappy and I wish I could convince them of the possibilities of happiness outside of the church. It breaks my heart to see them so unhappy but the minute I start to talk about the untruths of the church they immediately become very defensive.

Is there anyone here who has managed to break through that wall? If so, how do you do it? In both of my situations the wife is the unhappy one and the husband is uber TBM. I know they fear it would mean the end of their marriages but they are so unhappy as it is.

I am at a loss as to how to help.

I've been trying to break through that wall for many years. I love my TBM children and grandchildren, but I would like nothing better than to have them research Mormonism and find out the real truth about it.

If you find a way, I hope you'll share it with everyone here.

Listen. Be helpful and encouraging where you can, church aside. If you talk and listen to them and offer help with the motive of getting them out of the church, they will sense that just like you sense the motives of LDS who are trying to covertly persuade you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2013 11:28PM by robertb.

Well, so far it has been a bit like this, for me anyway.
http://i.imgur.com/1tGHbX1.gif
But other people have met with success which is encouraging.

Is that Will Arnett?! He's hilarious.

You know what, show them a string of Will Arnett videos, that always makes me happier.

'Dunno. Note to self: Watch Will Arnett videos.
Just saved that bit and wanted a fitting place to put it.

Show them this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw

If they don't last more than a few minutes, there's nothing you can do.

Honestly it sounds like they want the church but it's not quite what they want. So they're not looking for something _else_, they just want it to be better. So, agree with them on their disagreements with the church, and realize their realization of its limitations. Understanding and being empathetic is the best way to bring out their problems with the church.

I have only been 3 months at trying to find a way to encourage the TBMS in my life to see the truth. However, I feel the best thing I am doing is showing them how much I enjoy Sundays! When they are slaving in a church job, I am having a great day. Get out of bed later than normal, taking a nice walk, maybe exercise a little, read the paper, do some puzzles, listen to a sermon off the internet, read a little of the Bible and listen to some good music and relax.

They come home frustrated and tired of sitting through 3 hours of boring meetings. I am relaxed and ready to have a nice family dinner and play with the grandkids. They go to bed early because they had a busy day I go to bed at the regular time after a Great Refreshing Renewing and Invigorating day.

I believe people will change faster when they see a good example of what they want to change to!

Mormons don't care about truth. In fact, most Mormons fear truth. All they care about are their G*d D*mn testimonies. Mormons don't give a rats hairy behind about truth. They just don't care if TSCC is true or not. They NEED it to be true because they are infantile and unable to live life without the belief that their loving sky daddy is looking out for them.

Every time I attempt to enlighten TBM's about the truth they just plug their ears and say la-la-la-la-la. "It's all anti-Mormon lies and partial truths taken out of context". When I ask them to show me the partial truths and correct the lies and show me the proper context they can't/wont. Then they go into testimony mode and get all teary eyed and tell me they know by experiences to sacred to share they know the church is true and I can know it's true if I just live the gospel the rest of my life. Such complete and utter bull crap.

Wolfsbane, no really, tell us how you feel. lol ok, when I read your post I was thinking, "damn, I should have written that".

To wolfsbane's credit, most TBM's need to have a UNspritual moment...i.e.../...Intellectual Stimulated Thought Process, in order to get past the brain wash and fears of rejection by friends, family and coworkers for calling the church's true history what it really is, an "Absolute Embarrasment" to religion on the whole as well as a total SHAM of all PONZI schemes that could have ever been created by con-men.

How anyone can carry on in this church knowing full well of Joseph's polyandry or the invalidity of the BOA translation as well as many other countless evidences that have shown the church is a JOKE at BEST, should be, and absolutely are the whore of all abominations across the face of our known universe. Shame on anyone who preaches to "Chose The Right...CTR" when they clearly can not see the error in which they process. Just because they claim to have a testimony, does not mean they are not accountable for their actions. Their unwillingness to accept truth face to face and accept it for what it is, my friends, is there own damnation.

If there is a God, may he/she/it burn them in the lake of fire for chosing to ignore the truth. It is their duty to seek truth no matter what because all truths are supposed to lead to CHRIST! BOA, POLYANDRY, MOUNTAIN MEADOWS, ETC...

You know what's funny, mine came from reading that blacks were considered the "Mark of Cain", yet other Mormons I've talked to don't seem to care about that.

+1000% I couldnt have said it BETTER!!!

Wow, I've heard someone say they've had "proof" that it's true; when I ask what it is, they say they can't explain it or it's too sacred to say.

I live by the rule of live and let live. I might try to break the ice, but if met with resistance, I leave it alone.

Took me awhile to get that through my thick head, but when I backed off and minded my own business and respected everyone's RIGHTS to their beliefs, no matter what they were, we got alone fine! It worked really well in a long marriage with a TBM with a strong "spiritual witness" of the claims of Mormonism.

I found that it was wise to remember that emotional attachment to the belief in the claims by faith is extremely powerful. It's their "truth" and it's personal, and often solid!

I too thought I needed to be a "right fighter" at first, make sure my information and point of view needed to be shared. But, not so fast. I learned a valuable lesson very quickly.

Some people don't care about my research, lack of belief equals major rejection, and my credibility went down the toilet in a hurry... upshot... it's not worth messing with relationships over religion (or politics) ! We don't all have to be alike.
It's OK to think and believe differently!

Give it a try to make your voice heard. Keep your options open. Bear in mind that not all members are interested in your information or research. And sometimes when they reject it, you are rejected along with your claims.

There are strong reasons for those reactions. This is a belief system based on family solidarity of beliefs by faith. Mess with that and there can be some extreme consequences.
So...be prepared...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 12:28AM by SusieQ#1.

I was 16 when I figured it out, and I was so excited to let everyone else in my family know.

I took my mother's childhood BOM and mine, and showed her verses where the words had been changed.

I explained the genetics and the archaeological record. Why Joseph was a fraud, Kinderhook, The Book of Abraham, Zelph - everything.

After a deeply emotional rejection I realized that it isn't rationality that binds these people so closely to Mormonism. They have a passion for the church that can only be rivaled by your passion against it.

If they leave, it's because they went on their own journey, and fortunately you can be there for them to help deal with the bitterness.

If they stay, then it's up to you to be the force for peace - resepct them, and convince them to respect you.

I can't think of a better way to put that.

The only cure is education and truth . You need to distribute copies of David Whitmer's pamphlet . It will open some eyes guaranteed . And maybe pique some further interest in the truth .

My advice:

Let. It. Go.

Accept and love them for who they are and what they believe.

However, if they are open, willing, and interested to look and learn we can supply you with all the resources you need. But you can't force that interest and willingness and the harder you push the more defensive they will become and the more they will dig in and the more you will damage the relationship.

The Oncoming Storm - bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
+ 1000 !!
It's their journey.

...official-yet-'faith'-troubling LD$ Church info. to pro-Mormonism info. from sources such as FAIR Mormon Wiki that make mention of topics that Latter-day Saints have not been taught in church and find disturbing ("Joseph Smith/Polygamy/Polyandry", "Fanny Alger", "Mormonism and temples/Endowment/Freemasonry", etc.) to documented historical info. in volumes such as "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins", "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View", "No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith", etc.

If you're interested, here's a post I did last month: "I suggest start w/ the July '93 Ensign article by LDS apostle R. Nelson about JS 'translating' the BoM w/ his 'seer' stone and hat (links)" - ref. http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,888649,889393#msg-889393

...and more info. in another post of mine:

FamilySearch.org is the LDS Church's genealogy website. Here's the church's online record for Joseph Smith (JS) showing several, but not all of his 33 known wives: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/99P4-SHN

The full list is at http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Note that JS' collection of plural wives included the spouses of 11 men as well as seven teenage girls younger than 18 and 15 single women aged 19 to 58.

The LDS Church has an online marriage record for JS and Fanny Alger, the teenage servant girl who worked in the Smith home, at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP82-WTV

You also might want to try "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling: A Cultural Biography of Mormonism's Founder" by Prof. Richard Bushman, a Mormon. From Publisher's Weekly: "How should a historian depict a man's life when that man, and his religion, remain a mystery to so many 200 years after his birth? Bushman, an emeritus professor at Columbia University and author of Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, greatly expands on that previous work, filling in many details of the founding prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and carrying the story through to the end of Smith's life. Many continue to view Smith as an enigmatic and controversial figure. Bushman locates him in his historical and cultural context, fleshing out the many nuances of 19th-century American life that produced such a fertile ground for emerging religions. The author, a practicing Mormon, is aware that his book stands in the intersection of faith and scholarship, but does not avoid the problematic aspects of Smith's life and work, such as his practice of polygamy, his early attempts at treasure-seeking and his later political aspirations. In the end, Smith emerges as a genuine American phenomenon, a man driven by inspiration but not unaffected by his cultural context. This is a remarkable book, wonderfully readable and supported by exhaustive research. For anyone interested in the Mormon experience, it will be required reading for years to come." (ref. http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532)

Crucially, you cannot force ANY Mormon to open their mind to 'faith'-shaking historical facts (there are so many!) that conflict w/ the LD$ Church's whitewash. They have to want to learn the full truth; most do not.

They'd rather continue in 'faith'-bolstering ignorance because they respect the truth less than need to mentally reinforce their Latter-day Saint belief system. It's dysfunctional and immature, but “Ignorance is the softest pillow on which a man can rest his head” (so said Michel de Montaigne, who was one of the most influential writers of the French Renaissance, known for popularizing the essay as a literary genre, and commonly thought of as the father of modern skepticism).

Good luck!

Four iron to the back of the head?

Just be happy.

And don't be afraid to drop the phrase "when I was mormon I..."

It really rocks them to the core.

As usual, you are all a wealth of knowledge and wisdom on the subject. I think I will take the path of happy and loving friend and sister and hope they begin to want some of that happiness as well someday.

Hopefully that day will come and I can be there for them and give them support.

I am hopeful and I agree that I can't be pushy or too focused on it.

Good advice all!

You don't, they have to want to see the truth on their own.

I personally pushed out information I learned on FB, I was encouraged because at first my family was so accepting of me.

when I told my dad and he said he still loved me no matter what and talked about how important family was, I really thought I might have a chance to explain myself, I hoped that he would listen and we could have deep heart to heart talks about beliefs and understanding.

I was wrong.

The church runs deeper than that, a true believer puts belief before everything. to question is to sin, to discuss doubt is offensive. I wanted nothing more than a deep personal discussion with him. Something that he clearly didn't want. Not saying he would have denied me my chance to go over what bothers me about the church, it was simply obvious that he didn't want that. the fact that I challenged the status quo and called out the deception and lies of church history on my FB page. that offended him, the fact that I questioned the 'church truths' that my mom would post bothered him.

one day I felt the shunning heavily at a family church function, and I said something about it. emotions ran high and I was told I deserved the treatment, I had the devil cast out of me that day by my own father. my heart broke over that. I realized that there is nothing YOU can do to change a persons heart that isn't open to the possibility of change. That can only come from within.

wow, this is actually a bit harder to talk about than I though it would be, these feelings aren't as dulled by time as I expected.

My advice, Don't be shy about what you believe, Be open about the reasons you don't believe. Don't pressure them to look, debate and discuss if invited to.

but don't stress if they can't change. some just can't. let them know there is happiness on the other side, but don't rub their nose in it.

All you can do is open the door and exclaim what you see on the other side. it is up to the individual to walk through it.

Milk before meat. Talk to them about how much you value family, honesty, truth. Build a better relationship of trust around deeper more meaningful topics. Tell them how much you admire them for being true to their convictions.
After they are more comfortable with discussing "faith" with you, ask them to tell you about what they believe. This will lead to excited testimony bearing (ugh) but this is where you need to be strong. Remember to thank them and tell them you have a lot to think about.
Begin part 1 of their deactivation program.

You will need: A copy of Mormon Doctrine (1st ed, has to be this edition), access to journal of discourses, refs to every ensign and/or church talk mentioning Josephs seerstones. Most importantly, you will need a "can do" attitude!

Oh, crap, I have to go. To be continued...

Sparkyguru,

Your post made me so sad! I relate to it so well. My dad is such an intelligent, analytical individual who actually went through a faith crisis himself when he was about the same age I am now. When I initially began to seriously question my faith I turned to him for help. At first he was helpful and it was great to have an intelligent, active, understanding LDS person to discuss my questions with. However, once I started delving in deeper it changed.

When I asked why the temple ceremony resembled masonry, he stated that he didn't understand it completely but he felt good in the temple. When I asked why the problems with Joseph Smith, he said that while JS was an imperfect being he is okay with that. When I asked why the historical problems with the BoM he brushed those off as well. And so on and so on. I had hoped for real answers from him, significant insights into why things are the way they are. Unfortunately it broke down to he wants to believe and so he finds ways to believe, even if that means ignoring (what I think are) big problems.

I love and admire my dad too much to fight with him, so I'm pretty well done discussing it, I think. I hate that I won't have his approval if I choose to leave the church (still deciding on that one) but I don't see any way to fix that. Religion and politics are similar in that if you don't have pretty similar beliefs to begin with, most discussions end in pointless emotional debates.