A friend of mine is taking a class at BYUI that focuses on critical thinking and argument skills, or something like that. She posted the hypothetical scenario and asked for feedback on it.

Her original post says,
"Okay. . .this is a controversial issue. But I would like some opinions about it. (This is homework)

There is a case study about a new family who moved to a new area who is starting a new business. They have a 9 year old daughter and connect with another family with a 9 year old daughter. They didn't know that the other family was a lesbian couple. They have to go out of town. Question is: Would you be comfortable leaving your daughter with a lesbian couple all day and for a sleep over with their daughter?"

My response was the general "their orientation does not influence their ability to care for a child," sort as well as a mild chastisement about her idea of asking them to not show any pda in front of her child. I got a thorough chewing out by her husband that I thought I'd share for your viewing pleasure.

His response with my name tagged at the beginning,
"People are totally in their right to request that other people don't do things around their kids. If someone can't see that I have different beliefs and therefor don't want my kids around things then they don't deserve to be a friend. The gays have this extremely annoying habit of trying to get everyone else to believe that they need to open up and see things differently. Sin is sin, no matter how much they try to make it look like its not, it is, and billions of people are going to disagree. They are trying to get the masses to side with them by making them feel guilty for not agreeing with sin. A drunk can tell me all he wants he is not sinning but that doesn't make it not a sin. Blinded by their efforts to try to get people to agree, they are completely oblivious to reason, and fail to see anyone elses point of view.

So, that whole family thing, how is that supposed to work if no one can have kids...... If you disagree with the proclamation, do you not believe in families? Teaching your kids right and wrong is not teaching to be judgmental. This is yet another tactic they use to try to make things appear different than they are. It is unfortunate that you have your views that we should look upon sin as acceptable, but it is really getting old with you repeatedly trying to push your stance, and false statements about gay couples not having an effect on their kids."

Wow, thanks for playing my game, but you need to stop talking and listen to me. I don't like that person at all, they really played "bait and switch" with you.

Plus her reasoning is horrible. She'll make a great Mormon mother.

She didn't do the chewing out, her husband did. Defending his wife, I guess, since I said she was wrong.

Scanned too quickly, changes situation a little. My apologies. Certainly he was very rude to you and I understand your vent. I love that you engaged her politely with a kind and well thought out post, unfortunately you did not receive the same treatment from her husband. I don't think people should leave their kids with someone like him, but a loving, responsible lesbian couple would be a much better alternative.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 01:30PM by gentlestrength.

Wow. That guy has issues and expects everyone to cater to him. To put it mildly, what a jerk.

Wow! What an asshat.

He sure put on his big boy priesthood pants and told you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 01:25PM by fidget.

+1

Must have been hard to type with one of his arms raised to the square.

You have to love the unsupported leaps in "logic." For example, if you don't agree with the proclamation, you must not believe in families.

I fail to see how efforts to exclude bigotry somehow demonstrate any hostility or opposition toward the concept of families as a whole.

Let's say that one of the prospective parents cheated on her previous husband and the current one was caught littering and fined. Both are involved in a MLM scheme. Adultery, littering and fraud... these are also sins. Do you trust them to take care of your child?

Boy, Mormons seem very big on pointing fingers at others. Sins that hurt others aren't as bad as the gey sins?

PS, I don't think being gay, or any behavior connected to it, is a sin or wrong in any way. Oral sex is also apparently a no-no, so if thw couple is known to engage in that (and how would you know?) would that enter into the equation?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 01:37PM by serena.

Starched up priesthood boner needs to pipe the f%$# down. If he has a problem with a lesbian couple displaying affection toward eachother in their own home, then he probably shouldn't ask them to take care of his nasty-ass 9 year old brat.

sparty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Starched up priesthood boner needs to pipe the
> f%$# down. If he has a problem with a lesbian
> couple displaying affection toward eachother in
> their own home, then he probably shouldn't ask
> them to take care of his nasty-ass 9 year old
> brat.

EXACTLY!

My children are not allowed in homes with guns, big dogs, or swimmimg pools. That's our decision. So I'm certainly not going to make people cater to my rules and beliefs in their own homes! WTF is wrong with Mormons?

Not so much, anymore. As cultures change, sins change. Owning slaves used to be OK, interracial marriage was not OK. Now it is reversed, at least for most people.

The Proclamation on the Family will end up in the dustbin of history, like the Lectures on Faith. It is rapidly approaching its "sell by" date already.

Interesting that these people are so sure of themselves. "Sin is sin". Says who? Your church leaders? Once upon a time, interracial marriage was a sin punishable by death. Who determines what is a sin? God? How do you know? Because someone told you? Do you have absolute faith in the words of men as being infallible and objective truth? How do you come to this conclusion?

What I totally love about his response is the stupidity of
it. In Mormonism you are allowed to be rude and stupid if it
supports the mission of the Church. Holland alluded to this
concept when he said that people don't want to do missionary
work because they don't want to offend. He then said it's OK
since God never sees it as offensive. Missionaries are told
to be "bold, testifying missionaries." Translation--be rude
and offensive if you have to.

It's OK to use stupid ideas to put you in your place because,
hey, we're MORMONS. We don't have to make sense because we go
by FEELINGS.

Let me look at his logic a bit:

He said, "So, that whole family thing, how is that supposed to
work if no one can have kids[?]" Yes. And if EVERYONE became
doctors how would we eat? We'd all starve to death. Therefore
we must teach our children that being a doctor is bad.

Yep, sin is sin. Therefore ask the people who watch your
children not to eat pork or pork byproducts (or shellfish
etc.) where your children can see them because the Bible
specifically prohibits their use by commandment from God
(unlike the Word of Wisdom which God specifically says is
given "not by commandment or constraint")

I notice that many Mormons who eat tons of meat at summer
barbecues are not considered in violation of the Word of
Wisdom (like my carnivore neighbor who is in the bishopric)
but those who emulate Joseph Smith (who drank wine and beer
his entire life and even drank wine just before he was killed
in Carthage jail -- he "sealed his testimony" with wine in his
belly) are considered sinners who are not "worthy" to enter
the temple (this is even more interesting given that the LDS
apostles used to drink wine INSIDE the Salt Lake Temple). Is
"sin still sin" in Joseph Smith's case?

Then there's the whole idea that we can't allow our children
to know that there are people different than us. To ask
someone to do you a favor (watch your child) and then insult
them by asking them to not be themselves because you don't
want your child to think people like them are decent human
beings is beyond offensive--it's sin.

Bravo +1

"The gays"

Such a rude way to address a group of people.

"Oh my god! It's the GAYS!!!!!!!!"

I would reply, "Why are you chewing me out for responding to a REQUEST by your wife for feedback on this issue? I got my opinion, you got yours. Get off your highhorse!"

You should respond to the husband with something along the lines "I can certainly see why she posted her homework question online to get some feedback for a critical thinking class"

+1!!!!!!

Post this answer back, "Peoples sexual orientation isn't that big of a deal. The Mormons have this extremely annoying habit of trying to get everyone else to believe that they need to close up and see things differently. Love is not a sin, no matter what people who lived a long time ago might have thought."

If your friend acquires any critical thinking skills either in the classroom or in real life, her husband will probably put the kibosh on them.

I've always loved people that have this mentality and yet get pissed if someone states that mormonism is a cult and that you should not accept them either...

You gotta love it.

The really annoying thing is that I know that they leave their actual daughter, still a baby, with people who commit an array of other sins including having her kids raised by an abusive step father, who stole money from them... And since no one is perfect, this couple also has their own array of sins that they commit around their actual child including ignoring her for hours because it's time for her to sleep and she's trying to manipulate them by crying instead of sleeping. /end vent.

And, the idea that asking a gay couple to not act gay around their kid because it's not their standard would also mean that they'd have to ask people to not drink coffee, tea, or wine with dinner, to not wear tank tops, to require them to go to church on sunday if that's when the visit is...

Methinks he doth protest a little too much.

I think he may know the secret foot tapping signals used in airport rest rooms.

I would refer him in the future as Ted Haggard.

You should respond to the ass wipe husband with, "I change my mind. You shouldn't leave your kid with them because their daughter should not be exposed to your bigoted ways. Besides, I thought this was a homework assignment up for debate and I provided one point of view. No wonder so many non members feel mormons are hypocritical judgmental pricks."
See what response you get from that!

Since the aim of this hypothetical is to encourage critical thinking and the ability to back up an argument, I would ask him on what basis he has determined homosexual behavior to be sinful. The bible? There is a lot of behavior that the bible considers sinful that I'm sure he doesn't agree to. Church authorities? Ditto. He can consider SWK's prohibition against oral sex as an example.

Good point, Summer. And if he's worried about the child being abused, statistically lesbians are less likely to sexually or physically abuse her than a hetersexual. Just based on stats.

There are problems here because this guy is our friend, well, my husband's friend and coworker. They've been friends since high school. That's the only thing stopping me from telling him that he probably should keep his daughter and himself away from me because I certainly don't respect him.

Sorry, friend, I thought by posting this question you were seeking feedback. I will, of course, be careful to never expose my critical thinking skills again where they might expose your husband to thoughts he finds painful.

If I were he I would delete his response to you. There are plenty of people (even TBM) who would be very put off by that response. He may find fewer Facebook friends come tomorrow. That response should be copied and pasted to other sites for full chastisement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 07:09PM by snuckafoodberry.

I'll bet he watches lesbian porn when his wife isn't around.

I might nicely mention that his wife asked for opinions and you gave yours. Presumably she knows his and there is no need for an argument..As far as I am concerned,it depends on whether you know the parents well enough to trust them to protect your kid and behave appropriately. Asking them them not to kiss in their home is inappropriate. However, small kids shouldn't witness sexual behavior whether gay or straight so the issue is whether you know them well enough to trust them. Most people are not going to.get hot and heavy around kids and the fact that they are gay shouldn't be an issue

This is the bigotry he was expressing though, that somehow parents that are not like him would display poor judgement in front of children.

I do think that he would not be opposed to a heterosexual couple showing affection and would be opposed to a homosexual couple showing affection in front of children. The truth of the matter is that this guy has expressed bigotry towards homosexuals in his comments and thus I would not trust children around such a bigot.

Even if he refrained from coffee, tea, and Coca-Cola like all people should who love Jesus and Joseph.

The fun part is that while they stayed with us for a couple of weeks last year, they were very physically affectionate with each other in front of our kid. Lots of kisses and snuggling on the couch and whatnot.

Personally I prefer to keep that kind of thing private for the most part. Cuddling or an occasional kiss is fine, but a make out session or excessive lovely dovey behavior can make others feel left out and uncomfortable. If they can do it, they have a lot of nerve telling the lesbians not to

Agreed. If he feels that way he should keep his kid home. He has no business telling others what to do in their own homes and he is a bigot