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Posted by: otedge ( )
Date: June 28, 2013 11:45PM

I know the title may sound snarky but I hope you read this as a real post and do not see me as a troll --

I lurk here alot. I have for many years. Just started posting again recently. I was TBM for over 20 years. Converted at about 20. RM. TM. BYU grad. Served in lots of callings -- really everything on the ward level, including bishop and bishop's 1st counselor, EQP, HPGL -- you name it, I've done it.

I am no longer TBM (although I'm still technically a member I am not TBM, have no TR, don't pay tithing, no calling, etc. and attend only rarely for family reasons, etc.) but I don't have any ill will, no bitterness, no anger toward TSCC or any of it's members. Never did. In fact, I embrace my former TBM-ness as a good thing -- for me -- at the time.

So, I've now "moved on" from being TBM. But, for nearly 20 years, I honestly believed it all and I enjoyed being TBM. I loved my mission experience. Grad school at BYU was a good/great experience. I enjoyed the social aspects of being part of a ward in each phase -- single, newlywed, couple with kids, etc. I enjoyed having an immediate social structure/friends/etc. in place when a job brought me to a new location. I think being TBM made me a better person at the time (than I would have been if I had not been TBM). I enjoyed callings -- mostly anyway. I think I helped people in ways that mattered and I know that me and my family were helped by others who had TSCC callings. I always put family or job (because it supported my family) first depending on what was going on at the time and TSCC behind that so I never missed family or work stuff for church stuff.

When I read all the posts/posters that are so angry at TSCC and EVERY member for EVERY thing, I have a hard time relating. (The group think and confirmation bias here can be pretty overwhelming). I FULLY UNDERSTAND that other people have had other experiences than I have had -- I am not naive to think that bad things don't happen to cause deep, real pain. I've read many of your stories. I just can't relate personally. My experience as a TBM was 90% positive (maybe more like 95%). Unfortunately, (fortunately?) it doens't make TSCC/Christianity/religion "true" -- hence my "no-longer-TBM-status." But I think TSCC was actually a very positive part of my life and the deep negativity that others feel is mostly a mystery to me.

I understand that RfM is for "recovery" -- so this is the place that people who need recovery gather (and I know that bitterness/anger/whatever-you-call-it may be part of recovery, for some/most). I guess until there is a forum/website for "people who loved being TBM but no longer are" (is there one?) I suppose this is the closest place I'll have to finding sort-of like-minded folks.

Well, that's what's on my mind tonight. Thanks for reading.

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Posted by: wine country girl ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:10AM

Ok.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:12AM

Do you believe TSCC is true or false?

Did you pay your tithing?

If the answer to the first question is "false" and the second "yes"

then the church's claim that it was true and that you should pay tithing to the true church is fraud.

If you are not angry at an institution that defrauded you out of a lot of money, the problem is with you, not us.

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Posted by: otedge ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:46AM

MJ --

Not really sure how to respond. I didn't say anyone had a "problem" did I? I didn't mean to imply that if it sounded that way.

As far as paying tithing -- I look at it now as "membership dues" that I paid at the time for the benefits of belonging to the organization. As I said, my experience was positive, so I personally do not consider the "dues" wasted.

I don't buy in to the idea that many people have (I don't know your opinion on the matter) that the church takes all this money and does nothing with it but put it into the pockets of the top 15 and thier families, etc. I will sound like an apologist and I'll probably be slammed for saying much more than that, but I will say that as a bishop, my ward covered a large part of a large metro city -- and the ward got back only a small part of the tithing money that came in -- HOWEVER, SLC paid everything as far as electic bills, yard care, upkeep of the building, etc. Our $3 million land/church building (in an expensive real estate market) was paid for with no mortgage, etc. I don't claim to know where all the money went, but I can say that there are alot of expenditures associated with running the church, that local wards never see. My ward could never have afforded the building we had if we had to pay for it ourselves with the tithing dollars.

I own a business now. It's expensive. TSCC is no different.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:58AM

"Not really sure how to respond."
Try actually answering the questions asked, that is a good start. Dodging the questions as you have just makes you look like you are trying to hide something.

Funny how you ignore the fraud part of the whole thing. Oh, and ignored the question as to if you think the the church is true or not. Why is that? Why did you feel the need to dodge the questions?

If you lied to your customers in order to get money from them, you would be sent to prison, and I would bet your customers would be angry at you, wouldn't you agree? Would you be angry at a regular corporation that lied to get 10% of your income?

Now instead of dodging the questions, how about answering them directly so you stop apearing like you are trying to hide something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 01:05AM by MJ.

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Posted by: otedge ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:45AM

MJ-

Your questions are not as profound as you think they are. I wasn't avoiding answering them. My original post answered both of your questions before you even asked them. I am no longer TBM (1. I once thought it was true, i do not believe that now. IE, false) and I had lots of callings that necessitated being a full tithpayer at the time (2. Yes). Those were the questions you asked and I supposedly avoided. They were answered already in my original comment -- therefore I didn't really know how to respond.

Respectfully, I don't see a rational, productive conversation in our future.

Peace.

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Posted by: Thedoubtman ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 04:08AM

MJ, I don't understand you. Sometimes you can be very nice but then randomly you get very annoyed at someone and start antagonizing them and sometimes rudely arguing for no particular reason.

A few times I've seen people kindly answer your questions and then you proceed to get very upset and accuse them of untrue things. It's a little frustrating at times and I don't know why you do it but I thought I would get it off my chest.

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Posted by: abinadiburns ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:17AM

Question: are you still a mormon? Though no longer TBM?

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Posted by: otedge ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:33AM

Abin --

I'm still technically a member because I have not resigned my membership and they haven't kicked me out -- and I see no reason to resign.

But I am not TBM, I do not have a TR, I don't pay tithing, I have no calling, etc. and attend church only rarely -- few times a year -- for family reasons.

I'm also technically still a member of the Catholic church since I was baptized as a kid -- I never resigned my membership there either, LOL.

No religion has "power" over me so I see no reason to resign, etc.

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Posted by: snb ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:37AM

I would suspect a significant amount of us here on this board are still Mormon but not TBM.

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Posted by: lucky ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:29AM

And I suspect that those who are still MORmON that are on this board will still run to admin to bitterly complain and whine when others so accurately and fittingly point out that they are still MORmON, even though the resident MORmON(S) will actually admit that they are still MORmON, when it suits them, even though they try to deny it most of the time when they are busted.

Because MORmONS are big time cry babies, big time whiners, big time inconsistent, big time two faced, big time back stabbers, and big time stupid, regardless of what they may or may not believe relative to any part of MORmON dogma.... AS IF MORmONS have ever really known what the Hell they really believe.

If the MORmON shoe fits........... then MORmONS will wear it, and then try to tell others when they are entitled to notice, or not.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 03:43AM by lucky.

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Posted by: puff the magic dragon ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:21AM

My husband was in the church for 17 years and he feels the same way that you do. I on the other hand was in for 33 years. During that time I was taught I was better than anyone else, took vows and then had penalties to cut my throat and disembowel myself, attain perfection at the cost of losing who I really was, I remember all kinds of little nasties that you would not be able to relate to. I did not complete my education because well......I was going to stay home an be a baby maker. I payed tithing to a church who's leaders spent my money on a shopping mall and of course their many homes and expenses. I lost all of my friends when I left the church and most of all I was deemed an apostate and went back on my temple covenants. I also gave up 18 months of my life to a cult. I was sealed in the Temple and therefore left my dad out of a day that should have been the greatest joy of his life. A little bitter? Yea.

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Posted by: puff the magic dragon ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:29AM

I could keep going.....hey, maybe I will........I believed with all of my heart that gays could live a life of celibacy because that is what Heavenly Father would want. No, they do not need to feel loved and cherished because He gave them that challenge in life to overcome and be made perfect. That was their sacrifice. Bullcrap. Now I am totally the opposite. I can't fully express that enough. I still beg for forgiveness to God for judging people who just wanted to be loved. Just like I am loved by a spouse. I am weeping for JOY that gays can finally start to feel whole and be married legally to their partners.

All of this I blame on a church who does not care if you are struggling to make ends meet. They just want their money. And they do a poor job of spending it. I hope and pray that one day soon they will have to reveal all their financial statements to the public.......like every other church does voluntarily.

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Posted by: want2bx ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:35AM

Perhaps you're not angry because as a convert you chose the church for yourself. Just because you're a convert doesn't mean that you won't have any anger towards the church, but there are many people on RfM who might be angry because they are BIC and the church was chosen for them.

I don't know your particular situation, but as a convert you may not have the TBM extended families that many Mormons have. From what I read on RfM, there are plenty of people who have lots to be angry about because their Mormon familes have been so awful to them.

I am one who feels anger towards the church. I don't like being lied to and there isn't anything good about the church that makes up for it.

But, I suppose your lack of bitterness just helps you sleep better than many of us.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:38AM

As a convert, being angry at TSCC would be an admission that they made a serious mistake in joining TSCC. Many people can't admit the mistakes so they ignore and rationalize away the many things that should make them angry.

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Posted by: diablo ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:36AM

"Converted at about 20"

Dude, You can only be mad at yourself.

I was BIC like most people who get MAD at the cult and I have had enough of their stupid ponzi scheme.

Does your mom cry everytime you talk to her? This cult has crushed my mom's soul and she's programmed to guilt trip me.

I didn't ask for this. I didn't put a thought of a spiteful god in to my young mind. The fucking cult did.

If I wasn't pissed off at these assholes then I would be just another enabler like you are.

Converted at 20....sheesh


PS: great troll, that felt pretty good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 12:38AM by diablo.

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Posted by: lucky ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:47AM

Plus 1

(Thank you, for saving me the trouble of typing what needed to be said)

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Posted by: otedge ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 04:02AM

I'm not "mad" at anybody -- that was kind of my point.

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Posted by: Testimonyman ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:37AM

I can control my anger. I don't think I am mad at any of the members. They r all victims too. The church, it's culture has made the members assholes. I use to b an asshole myself. I think that helped my breakaway. I would ask myself, "why r u such an asshole?" After deciding I didn't want to be an asshole Ieft the church. It feels great to no longer be an asshole. Sometimes I get angry that I let the church make me am asshole. No often though.

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Posted by: darksided ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:37AM

well, to the OP, I'm glad you had a fun and happy sunshine time being a TBM. My childhood wasn't that bad but being mormon has torn my family apart. I'm not bitter or angry either...it just helps me to talk to other people who are also suffering from the effects of TSCC. I think it's a very harmful and ugly religion.

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Posted by: releve ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 12:54AM

When I first came here, I was shocked by the anger and the language and the crude remarks. I mentioned it to my daughter who left the same time I did and she said I needed to read a little bit more.

I get it now. Some of the people here have been deeply damaged by their experiences. Others face hurtful family situations everytime they have contact with their families. But the kids, the kids just break my heart and I worry about them. Will they be okay, will their parents be smarter than they expect, or kinder than they expect, will they find a safe place to be.

There are also people here who have recovered and who know the language that is needed to connect and help.

I'm happy that you are not wounded and angry, but there are some bloody mocasins out there that you haven't walked in.

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Posted by: lexaprosavedme ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 01:09AM

Otedge,

I was BIC and raised by extremely strict Mormon parents. I grew up in Utah County-(which is the worst of the worst) and had many horrible experiences with my parents as well as members/leaders. I have a lot of anger, resentment and pain from my past. I went to four different therapists for extended time periods, at different times in my life to try to pinpoint/cure my deep depression and perpetual feelings of worthlessness. I felt like something was severely wrong with me, because after-all, Mormons should be the happiest people on earth because they have the truth.

Finally, I started taking an anti-depressant and my life changed forever. I was able to finally take a step back and see the cause of my depression for what it was: A lifetime of guilt induced brainwashing and mis-treatment. That is when I was finally able to have the courage to do some research and free myself of the church. My husband says that he's never seen me so happy. I have never felt such peace in my life and can't even explain the joy and happiness that have been my result.

Anyway, there are some good experiences and qualities that I was able to acquire throughout my journey in Mormonism. I am glad that you have had a good experience and haven't had any of the negative affects, but still able to see the truth. I'm not sure about any other sights, but I hope that you find what you're looking for!

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 01:11AM

There are other board members who had a relatively benign church experience as you did. Stick around long enough and you will pick up on who they are. My guess is that you have the sort of temperment where you let a lot of things slide off of your back. You were also part of the church's power structure (male, bishop, etc.) for a long period of time, so the structure of the church worked in your favor.

You say that you have always put family first, but I would like to respectfully point out that your very demanding callings caused you to spend huge chunks of time away from your family. When you were bishop, did you see them much on Sunday at all? As a born and raised Catholic, I saw my dad all day every Sunday. I sat beside him in church, which took about an hour out of the sabbath. The rest of the day was ours for the enjoying.

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Posted by: Green Potato ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 01:29AM

Hi otedge,
I understand where you are coming from. Some people are genuinely happy in TSCC. As a church that was made up by people, it is bound to appeal to some people. Generally the people who enjoy church the most tend to stay in church and don't end up here.

With the benefit of hindsight, do you really think that 10% of your gross income is a fair price for what the church provides?

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Posted by: brother{of}donbagley ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 01:38AM

Otedge,
I think you're still in shock, brother. Mormon is a hell of a ride and when you first get off you can be quite dizzy for a season. Then you might feel a little quizzy, throw up, maybe have to sit down and look at your feet. On the long walk to the car, you'll have time to reflect and think, "why the hell did I go on that ride!"

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 01:38AM

Most Mormons never had a choice wether or not they were going to join the cult. As children we were brainwashed by the adults that we trusted to believe the absurdities the cult was selling.

It's frankly not too surprising that a convert, who describes his experience in the cult as 95% positive, would lack the basic human quality of empathy that would make him understand and relate to the people who were obviously deeply injured by the cult.

I can tell you from personal experience that raising a gay child in the Mormon Cult is CHILD ABUSE. For that reason alone the cult is EVIL. The fact that you feel at home in a group that systematically abuses children that are gay says a lot more to me about you than perhaps you intended in your original post...

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Posted by: jong1064 ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 05:01AM

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I can tell you from personal experience that
> raising a gay child in the Mormon Cult is CHILD
> ABUSE. For that reason alone the cult is EVIL. The
> fact that you feel at home in a group that
> systematically abuses children that are gay says a
> lot more to me about you than perhaps you intended
> in your original post...

Agreed, Sonoma. To me it's no different than being part of a street gang. You think it's pretty fun to hang out. Maybe you learn some stuff. You feel accepted, part of the group. Sure they do some bad stuff that hurts other people, but you don't participate in that, so you think you're okay. Guess what? Now you know how harmful the cult is to all of us here, you can't put your head back in the sand and pretend the church is good for some people. It's not. By its basic doctrine of lies and abuse, it is a harmful cult. Period. There is no ther way to see it without being part of the cycle of abuse.

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Posted by: rlawrence ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 01:44AM

otedge,
you sound like an apologist that is clueless and still brainwashed.
The histroy is not as we were taught from our childhood. It's all lies.
TSCC is like the scribes and phairisees. Strain at a nat, swallow a camel.
Example, the recent thread by the post of how the abused spouse was mistreaded by her priesthood husband,and what her inspired leaders brought her in and emotionally abused her. How about all the adultery and rape in the early years of the church, i.e. polygamy and polandry.

Now straining, don't swear, OMG masturbation by adolescense such a sin, all the fear and guilt that hurts one reach their full potential. I could go on and on.

All this shit so they can have their tithing. The mall is so obvious that TSCC is a corporation. I told my seperated spouse that TSCC built the mall to make up for tithing during the recession and she couldn't see how I saw such things.

Anyway your perspective is naive and seems trolling or doing research for TSCC

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Posted by: Duke ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 02:00AM

The OP might want to check out the NOM board. As for me, I stay in the church for family reasons. My DW, parents, siblings and not-so-dear in-laws are all TBMs, although DW asks a helluvalot of questions that nobody seems to be able to answer but me. I think everybody deals with/comes to grips with their disaffection differently. I, like the OP, don't consider myself bitter but fully understand those that are. If I outed my personal feelings, I could see a battle ensuing that would quickly change that. Until then, I'll just watch and wait to see what becomes of Mormonism and the church. Small note, I do try to change general teachings of the church in our home to fit a more positive world view and if/when we have children, I will also do my best to teach them 'truth.'

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Posted by: anon for this comment ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 02:03AM

I've known a few bishops in my day. Most of them loved being bishop. Lots of perks and ego strokes. They got to be king and on the inside loop for awhile.

Ask their kids and spouse how they felt about it. Whole different story. I've never met anyone yet who was thrilled their father was the bish. In fact, quite the opposite.

Some women love the status of it, but suffer from it at the same time. There are many who are deeply resentful that their husband was never there to help them raise their family. Father worked all day, meetings every night and every weekend. That leaves mother as a single parent. The resentment, and abandonment echo through their families for decades and is often never resolved.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 02:26AM

Welcome, otedge. My experience with members, including local leadership, was overwhelmingly positive. Teachings, policies, attitudes, politics, and history of the organization were another matter, but I became aware of those and my own feelings about them over time.

What angers me about the church depends on the level I focus on.

It's good to have your perspective as someone who was involved in the nuts-and-bolts of the organization. As far as I care, you feel how you feel. Obviously you feel enough in common with the group here to post, so--again--welcome.

P.S. "Bitter" is one of the trigger words here--a word TBMs use to attack our character. I don't think you mean it that way, but it gets a reaction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 02:28AM by robertb.

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Posted by: otedge ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:59AM

Robertb (and others who responded):

Thanks for the comment (and the welcome).

"Bitter" may have been a poor word choice, I agree. Definitely caused a reaction for some.

This thread exploded pretty quickly. I suspect it will shut down soon without a chance to respond adequately to all -- but I do appreciate all who took time to read and respond.

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Posted by: raisingspecialneeds ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 02:42AM

Go read my exit story then you can have an opinion on how I feel. It's posted on this forum.

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Posted by: Kismet ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:04AM

Almost all of my anger at TSCC comes from the fact that I was BIC. Sometimes I still can't quite believe that everything I was taught from birth is all a lie. It's very surreal. I was told for years that I was special because I had been born in the church, born white, born in the US, a real live Saturday's Warrior. I believed all of that for a long time, because it's all I ever knew. And it was all crap. I wasn't super valiant in the pre-existence. I'm not special. Being born American isn't the awesome prize I was told it was.

I think my anger is mostly because I was never allowed to grow and develop normally. I grew up in an emotional prison, and I never had a chance to figure out who I really was, or what I really believed. It was all spoon fed to me, and it was all lies. The brainwashing and the indoctrination go very deep, and they don't let go easily. I still deal with the effects, and maybe I always will.

Someone who voluntarily joined the church at 20 years old did NOT have the same experience I did, not even close. I wouldn't expect an adult convert to have any idea what it's like to be in my head. And in my experience, former adult converts DON'T understand what it's like to be brainwashed from birth and then find out as an adult that it was all lies. So really, I'm not surprised that the OP doesn't get it. And I'm not surprised that other former adult converts don't get it. They made a choice. I didn't. I never had a choice. Not until now. And yes, that makes me angry.

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Posted by: Kismet ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:19AM

I should probably add that I'm also angry about the fact that my delusional mother often gives me guilt trips about not brainwashing my children like she brainwashed hers. In her opinion, I'm a bad parent because I don't drive my children over to a Mormon church every week. In her mind, everything bad that happens to me is MY FAULT, because I won't let Heavenly Father bless me. He wants to bless me with money and health and all kinds of amazing things, he really does, and I just won't let him. And she doesn't even know the half of it... she just thinks I'm inactive because I was offended by someone. And I never correct her. I never tell her that I would resign in a heartbeat if I thought my relationship with her would survive it. I never tell her that all four of my children and I are atheists. I never tell her, because the shit would really hit the fan if I did. And yes, that makes me angry too. Only a cult would rip families apart the way TSCC does. Only a cult would make people live in fear of simply telling the truth. I guess I don't understand how someone could NOT be angry about that, unless they've never lived it and can't muster up enough empathy to comprehend it.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:07AM

For most men in the cult, they basically pay 10% of their income to have other people raise their kids.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 03:31AM by sonoma.

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Posted by: Ragnar ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:27AM

Aside from your hyperbolic statement: "When I read all the posts/posters that are so angry at TSCC and EVERY member for EVERY thing, I have a hard time relating"...

I'm glad that you're not giving LDS Corp any more of your money. That's the most important thing, and that's what hurts them the most.

We take from our experiences what we can, and learn from them. You were fortunate that you haven't experienced the pain and destructiveness that others have, and your experiences were positive for you. That's great, and it worked for you.

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Posted by: koolman2 ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:34AM

I've never felt angry at the church. I got out at about 20, mind, so I can't really compare. I do understand a lot of frustration and hatred toward being fooled, though.

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Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:47AM

How odd!

In the LDS Church's Gen. Conference in Oct. 2002, then-president Gordon Hinckley told Latter-day Saints:

"We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith.

"When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the [CBS] 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, 'Yes, sir. That’s the miracle of it.'

"That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens."

Mormonism has always been a demonstrable fraud, a very 'inconvenient' reality that Hinckley and other senior church leaders have known for generations. For example, the church's collection of JS' writings - see the organization's Joseph Smith Paper website for details - revealed long ago that his First Vision stories were incongruous.

Disconcertingly, JS kept altering key details about the supposed seminal 'event' in Mormon history. He was 15, 17, and later, 14. He was in some place he didn't specify, then in his bedroom, then in a grove of trees. He had determined that all churches were wrong, then his later story, he wrote that he didn't know which sect to join, so he went to the woods to pray and ask God (and joined the Methodists in 1828 despite supposedly being told by Jesus Christ in early 1820 to join no religious sect/church because "all their creeds were an abomination"!).

In JS' earliest recounted First Vision narrative, he said he'd dressed in black, rode of black horse to a specific location (during the astrologically-important autumn equinox), and there met a shape-shifting amphibian guarding a chest with gold plates in it. After magically turning into a man, the creature/being struck JS, knocking him "three or four rods" (fifty to sixty-six feet), and told him that he hadn't obeyed his "orders."

That "true", occult-heavy version of JS' First Vision didn't resonate with the locals in upstate New York, so he concocted another 'faith'-promoting theophany to launch supposedly "restored" Christianity. However, in JS' first First Vision interview with researcher/writer Peter Bauder in 1830, he failed to recount any "Christian experience."

Two years later, JS wrote that he'd had a vision in which he saw Jesus Christ - but he didn't mention any other "Personage", i.e., Heavenly Father. Still, his latest First Vision tale corrected his earlier mistake during the Bauder interview of not relating a "Christian experience." Who was going to listen to a 'prophet' who said nothing about having one?!

A couple of years later, the official First Vision narrative stated that JS was 17 and in his bedroom when an angel visited him (no mention of going to the woods to pray, suddenly being overpowered by an unseen, malevolent force that caused him to become mute, or the "two Personages" floating above him among the trees, however). In that "true" First Vision story, the angel told JS about gold plates and their location.

Then in 1838, the year in which JS targeted George Harris' wife, Lucinda (and illegally made her his 2nd plural wife) and members continued to leave the Church of God (the Mormon organization's official name back then) in large numbers due to the lingering effects of the collapse of the fraud-based Kirtland Safety Society 'bank' that JS had launched in late 1836 and continued to lied about in 1837, Mormonism's "prophet of the Restoration" created his latest First Vision myth, the one that subsequently became "the miracle", as Hinckley put it, and official, "true" Latter-day Saint history.

To understand the legitimate reasons for people's anger at the chronically dishonest and manipulative LDS Church, we mustn't forget JS' work of fiction, The Book of Mormon. He lied and claimed in March 1842 that it was an "important and interesting book" in which "the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era."

Scientific research throughout the Americas since the 19th century has thoroughly discredited the purportedly "true" BoM, the "most correct of any book on earth", quoting JS, and the "keystone" of the Latter-day Saint religion.

How many people have been systematically deceived by the habitually dishonest LDS Church during the past 6-7 generations? More than 15 million.

How much money has been defrauded from unsuspecting Latter-day Saints since 1830? An estimated $200 billion.

Bear in mind that the grossly unethical Mormon Church has routinely indoctrinated millions of members to believe that their "eternal salvation" has partly depended on them handing over to the church at least 10% of their allowance (during childhood), money gifts, wages, salary, pension(s), inheritance(s), and other forms of financial increase.

Where has much of the money from duped Latter-day Saints gone? According to one of the Mormon Church's senior executives quoted in a Deseret News report on Nov. 17/06 - Laurence Stay, vice president of Ensign Peak Advisors Inc., the church's wealth management company - EPA traded "billions of dollars" of financial securities (e.g., stocks, bonds, credit derivatives) "every day" to generate money for the church.

While the LD$ Church's Ensign Peak Advisors Inc. made hordes of cash for the financially secretive religious-corporate organization, Latter-day Saints were told that the church couldn't afford custodians and members would have to clean chapels (for free). Also, the missionaries' meager budget to pay for groceries and basic personal care items was cut.

But - somehow - the LD$ Church DID manage to scrape together billions of dollars to spend on its City Creek Center commercial real estate development in Salt Lake City.

Let's now take a moment to remember the thousands of hoodwinked converts to Mormonism, JS' religious fraud, who died crossing the plains, naively believing they were going to "Zion" to become part of "the kingdom of God on earth."

And we shouldn't forget the deceived missionaries who have been sent to violent and impoverished Third World countries and suffered from malnutrition, diseases, parasites, and widespread filth.

Or missionaries who have been attacked and killed, all in the name of spreading "the Gospel", the multi-billion-dollar LD$ con that continues to dupe millions of unsuspecting people in more than 100 countries.

The sooner the fraud of Mormonism is exposed, the better.

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Posted by: Lydia ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 03:50AM

otedge

I felt the same as you when I first came to the board and may have even said so in an early post.
HOWEVER, having been here awhile, I think I get why people feel the way they do.
I have come to see that everyone has a right to feel how they do. Some are cross, angry etc some are not. None of my business to tell them how to feel.
What I have found here is advice, support, humour and understanding for which I will forever be greatful. If I had asked the questions I did here, of members I know the response would have been different.
I found a quote awhile ago that summed up my feeling to the church ( note I say Church, not friends I made there),

"I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 04:22AM

Not surprised.
From some of your posts, you don't appear to WANT to understand, either. Ridiculing people for being bothered by unexpected visits at 8am, really?

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Posted by: Quoth the Raven Nevermo ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 04:24AM

How does one see a corporation in a positive way that requires members to pay the corporation before paying for living expenses for their family? They strip retirees of their savings to provide free labor. The lds corp is unchristian and evil. Their is no higher good to it. Period.

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Posted by: BeenThereDunnThatExMo ( )
Date: June 29, 2013 05:31AM

Hi Otedge,

Thanks for your thoughts and for sharing your apparently peaceful interaction with LDS Inc for 20-years.

I'm curious what was going on in your life at the age of 20 that made you consider Mormonism. Had you just gone through a turbulent time in your life of some sort ie., a family death, heartbreak of some sort, some addiction, fell in love with a Mormon girl, or just wandering aimlessly???

Were you tracted out by Missionaries or did you approach the Church in some fashion?

I left the Church at approx the same age that you joined, just following my Mission but more realistically on the plane ride home from my Mission it all became clear to me what it was about.

It's too bad your Missionaries couldn't apologize to you as i tried to do to some of my converts after i learned more of the fraud that is Mormonism.

As a BIC i come from 5th-generation Mormon heritage that in the last 3-generations has been severely traumatized and suffered greatly from so-called Church "revelation" and so-called authority. It has splintered our immediate and extended families apart in many ways. There are those who have remained in and those of us who have left or resigned. Some siblings don't talk to others, contrived relationships abound and many times we all seem to be play-acting for one another. It has zapped the authentic-ness out of the meaning of "family" that should have never occurred.

There is always an elephant in the room at family gatherings that is often unbearable. I often long for and wonder just how my one-and-only-life life would have been if it had remained forever untainted by Mormonism.

Yes...you had it easy.

But mostly i fear that you were a party to and perpetrated aspects of the worst parts of Mormonism as a Bishop by participating in the institutionalized psycho-sexual abuse while asking and interviewing little boys and girls about their budding sexuality that you were not qualified to do...yet you still participated in it.

Yes...you had it easy...and appear to have a different take on it than many of us.

Why you joined...none of us perhaps will ever really know. But at least you had a choice.

Those of us who were congenital Mormons never had the same luxury...of a simple choice.

Or so it seems to me...

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