So, my 16 y.o. non-believing son comes to me last night and tells me that the bishop called earlier and assigned him to give a talk in SM tomorrow. The topic is, get this... Honesty (BP suggested from the strength if youth pamphlet).
He asked me to help him write it. I just smiled.

He only goes to church half the time with his TBM mom and the other half he comes with me to Cabela's. They know something's up, but they have no idea that he doesn't believe--at all.

So, I'm gonna have some fun with this one. It can't be "in your face" with it. It's gotta take subtle jabs and make people experience a little cog dis.

Any suggestions. He's filling 5 - 7 minutes.

... they would likely cross the line.

Still, no one argues with Twain.

Timothy

Or he could quote Billy Joel :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 09:37AM by snuckafoodberry.

snuckafoodberry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or he could quote Billy Joel :)


"Sing us a Song, You're the Piano Man"???

"Thou shalt Not Lie." The Ninth commandment was very clear with this one. We have been commanded to tell the truth. If anyone says something that is not wholly true, that is, something that is partially truth but some of the truth is withheld, then that is a Lie. "Milk before Meat" is not telling the truth.

+1

"They built you a temple and locked you away
Aw, but they never told you the price that you pay
For things that you might have done"

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun"

"Virginia, only the good die young!"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes


Could you work it around to being authentic? Honest about your true self and not ashamed? How we all wear an invisible self in public to be who others what us to be. Not being phoney to get along with others but finding accepting and loving your genuine self is best for your mental health. It's the opposite of the natural man being the enemy of god.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 09:54AM by Taddlywog.

How about a scripture from the bible and a talk about Martin Luther King and his dream.


John 8:32 ESV

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”



[borrowed from a recent RFM thread]

Dr. King:

"I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood."

...

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

"I have a dream today."

-August 28, 1963
Washington, DC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 09:40AM by Senoritalamanita.

+one billion

As individuals we should be honest with ourselves and acknowledge the things we have done wrong and the people who have been hurt by our actions and our inactions, and not try to rationalize or excuse ourselves.
The church should do the same.

As individuals we should be humble and accept that we are not perfect, that we are not more perfect or more true than others, that we should not be prideful and overbearing and controlling and abusive and determined to make everyone be like us.
The church should do the same.

As individuals we should seek truth from the best books, from the best evidence, and then stand for that truth even if it means people will leave us and we might become unpopular.
The church should do the same.

As individuals we should confess our sins fully and not hold back bits and pieces or else it will could come back to bite us later.
The church should do the same.

As individuals we should be transparent and honest in our dealings with our fellowmen, not equivocating.
The church should do the same.

As individuals we must have INTEGRITY so that we can be examined one day when we get judged. "If faith will not bar to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examines, their foundation must be very weak." (George A. Smith, Journal of Discources, Vol 14, Chap 4, page 217).
The church should do the same.

As individuals we should follow the standard of honesty as described in the Gospel Principles Manual (http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng): ... "When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally decieve others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest. People have many excuses for being dishonest. People lie to protect themselves and to have others think well of them...To the Lord, there are no acceptable reasons...President Joseph F. Smith counseled, "Let every man's life be so that his character will bear the closest inspection, and that it may be seen as an open book, so that he will have nothing to shrink from or be ashamed of."
The church should do the same.

...he's under no obligation to give a talk on the BP's subject. Let him go outside the box.
...How about "Why the Church has done no excavation work on Hill Cumorah?".....or
..."We have all heard about Joseph Smith's multiple wives"...or
...How come Brigham Young owned a whiskey brewery"?..

...you get the idea.

I would use JS as an example of what happens when we are not honest - that it cost him his life.

Alternatively, tell how JS learned how to lie in his treasure digging business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 10:41AM by rhgc.

Love the responses so far! Am heading up the canyon out of range and will respond later today. Thanks!

I think it would be very powerful to have him tell the truth about the Church (in concise terms) from the pulpit, but if you just want to give some subtle cognitive dissonance, honesty to the self is a great topic.

Here is a great Carl Sagan quote that applies: “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

I read that quote when I just started to find the truth, and it affected me greatly. It's about being honest to the self, accepting the truth, and allowing yourself to live in reality. This quote is reverencing and serious. Sometimes, this "charlatan" can be an idea, a spouse, or an addiction to which we dedicate our time and effort. We don't want to discover that it was a bad idea.

There are women who do not leave their abusive husbands because they hope that it will get better. She must be HONEST with herself and admit that the best option for herself and her children is to leave the abusive spouse. Otherwise, she will continue to suffer, as she hopes and prays. You could easily apply this to something like leaving Jim Jones' cult. *BOOM! COG DIS.*

Many people in this church follow blindly. I feel that the best way to truly enjoy the church is to strive to understand the church. It's amazing how much you can learn from reading talks from Brigham Young and others from the old days. *Then insert some of the quotes that other posters put up before me*

Add important quotes of honesty from TSCC history:
-John Taylor claiming that JS shot two men dead before trying to escape out a window.
-Oliver Cowdery accusing JS of having a dirty affair.
-GBH's famous "i don't know that we teach it"
Okay, maybe those are a little bit forward...

And most of all, for the biggest disturbance of the entire talk, DO NOT end in the name of JC. End like this, "I know that honesty is an ethical principle, important to the success of humanity. We should not follow dishonesty leaders who refuse to tell us the truth. We should seek the truth for ourselves and then share it with the world. We should LIVE the truth, even if we are scared to do it." Then, immediately go sit down.

Maybe stating the obvious, but of course this all depends on what your teenage son is comfortable doing. Some teenagers are more off-the-cuff and would go for the knockout expose', which would be cool, but others would avoid stirring the pot in the slightest, or fall in between somewhere. So it's really up to how bold he is ready to be. (I for one hope glaringly bold).

Tell him to come to Cabellas with you instead, and ask the wife to watch the bishopric scramble to fill the time! Always fun when things don't go according to "revelation."

...good one!

Be sure to have him work in the quote from Jeremiah 48:10 (IIRC) that says roughly, "Cursed is anyone who does the work of the Lord deceitfully..."

And then for good measure have him ask how it is different to "Gain a testimony by the bearing of it" And the commandment, "Thou SHALT NOT bear false witness". ANd wonder out loud why an apostle should say you should break one of the commandments in order to get a testimony.

Good luck to you son

My dear brothers and sisters,

The bishop has asked me to speak on honesty today.

As the prophets have asked us to lead by example, I will tell you in all honesty, that I don't believe in this church, it's scriptures or its leaders.

Enjoy the rest of you meetings.

I seriously would love this so much. Only thing that would be better is if it was a hand-held microphone and he just dropped it and walked off after that and held his hands in the air. Would be epic.

A while back we talked about moral lessons in primary from a non-believer.

I love the construction or sharing of a story where someone chooses integrity/honesty over obedience.

Like a promise to a religious authority figure to keep a secret, what should you do.

It could be easily be pointed out that obedience is an inferior if non-existent moral code when contrasted with honesty/integrity. For what it's worth, I have come to prefer the use of the word integrity over honesty, honesty seems to allow for the "I didn't know" excuse in the simpler minds.

Well if someone has finished a Mormon mission and didn't learn the truth about the about the First Vision, Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith stories after having run around testifying they are true. That may be what they honestly believe, but lacked the integrity to find out the truth about what they believe.

I will be interested to hear how the talk goes, please share as appropriate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 12:50PM by gentlestrength.

2 Timothy 4:4
New International Version (NIV)
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/

I just love Biblegateway. You can search for any word and get lots of verses that use that word, then go back and read the whole chapter that explains.

You son can use this opportunity to do some Bible study as well as try to enlighten.

I would build it on how it is dishonest to lie by omission or tell half truths.

And how much more important the full truth is for those in leadership positions.

I would suggest that he begin with a testimony that honesty is a true doctrine. Say, "I promise to be honest" tAmen.
Next, he will indicate a few questions, such as how the BoM was translated, and who are the lamanites - "the people seem different from those who are Jewish". (no need to drop the DNA bomb)
Third, he can ask why doesn't the church come clean and be honest. "If we are to be honest, all should be honest. The history should be given completely and not sugar-coated". "We are ready for meat." We are ready to learn the whole truth about Joseph Smith."

I leave you my testimony of the need to tell the truth and be honest., in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Short. Direct. Testimonial. He can answe questions afterwards. See who congratulates him. See who is irate.

Pink Floyd,

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

I'm back.

So many good responses and interesting thoughts! I'm messing with his mom and she is a bit nervous about what we're gonna do. Hahahaha!

I will definitely report back on how this goes and what direction he takes.

(whoops, I posted the follow-up in the wrong place)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2013 05:19PM by Bite Me.

(Apparently, I'm a slow learner. Did it again.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2013 05:21PM by Bite Me.

I like the decision, I don't know how to make him feel better about the presentation, but it sounds like he was true to his core beliefs and that counts for a lot more than presenting a lie beautifully.

Indeed.

The best speech would be to sound like a Mormon speech but say some true things that plants a seed in their mind about something that just doesn't sit right. If he just comes out and says it, it's obvious that he's detracting it and he'll be ignored or booted. The best thing is to agree with them while planting a seed of doubt as if you're too stupid to realize it yourself.

Amen. Paul used that kind of thinking at Athens where he used their "unknown god" to teach them.

Dear brothers and sisters
Some people make fun of our religion. They say all kinds of things that they think are true. They say JS used a rock and a hat, and never even had the plates in the room while translating. Is that true?

Some say that there are DNA studies that prove the American Indians are from asia. Is that true?

Some even have the audacity to say there are 7 versions of the first vision and that the Book of Abraham is a common funeral text and has nothing to do with Abraham. Is that true?

I would encourage you all to always tell the truth. I don't know if these people know the truth or not. For me, I will certainly be looking into it because I always want to tell the truth. Especially about the church and what we believe. I don't think God would want us to not be telling anything but the truth in his church.

Amen.

Yours is my favorite, anon for this comment,

your speech was truly awesome!

Yes, those things are true. I congratuate you on your journey to test these things and recommend, among other avenues, mormonthink.com.

how did it go?

Yes I'm dying to know how it went! In my mind your son's talk makes the whole congregation's jaws drop and then he casually takes his seat while the Bishopric sit there dumbfounded and not knowing what to do. Please tell me that's what happened!

Yes, dying to hear about it! Will be looking for you thread on how it went!

Hi Everyone, thanks again for all of your input! I loved all of it. Here is the talk that he ended up giving (I'll explain why, below)...
_______________________________
(Begin Talk)

By royal proclamation, the Emperor of China announced a contest to decide the next heir to the throne. The Emperor was old and had no son, and because he had been a plant-lover for years, he declared that any boy who wanted to be king should come to the palace to receive one royal seed. Whichever boy could show the best results within six months would win the contest and become the next to wear the crown.

You can imagine the excitement! Every boy in China fancied himself likely to win. Parents of boys who were talented at growing plants imagined living in splendor at the palace. On the day the seeds were to be handed out, thick crowds of hopeful boys thronged the palace. Each boy returned home with one precious possibility in his palm.

And so it was with the boy Jun. He was already considered the best gardener in the village. His neighbors fought over the melons, bok choy, and snow peas that flourished from his garden. Anyone looking for Jun would probably find him bobbing between his rows, pulling out new weeds, moving one sapling over to catch more morning sun, transplanting another to the shade. Jun carefully carried the Emperor's seed home, sealing it securely in his hands so it wouldn't fall, but not so tightly that it might crush.

At home, he spread the bottom of a flowerpot with large stones, covered the stones with pebbles, then filled the pot with rich black moist soil. He pressed the seed about an inch below the surface and covered it with light soil. Over the next few days Jun, along with every boy he knew and hundreds he did not know, watered his pot every day and watched for the telltale unfurling of the first leaf as it burst through the surface.

Cheun was the first boy in Jun's village to announce that his seed was sprouting through the soil, and his announcement was met with whoops of excitement and congratulations. He bragged that he would surely be the next emperor and practiced his royal skills by bossing around the younger, adoring children. Manchu was the next boy whose tiny plant had emerged from his pot, then it was Wong. Jun was puzzled - none of these boys could grow plants as well as he! But Jun's seed did not grow.

Soon sprouts emerged from pots all over the village. Boys moved their plants outside so the baby leaves could bask in the warmth of the sun. They built stone fences around their pots and zealously guarded them from mischievous children who might accidentally - or not so accidentally - topple them over. Soon, dozens of sprouts in pots throughout Jun's village were stretching out their first leaves. But Jun's seed did not grow.

He was confused - what was wrong? Jun carefully repotted his seed into a new pot with the very best and richest black loam from his garden. He crumbled every ball of soil into tiny particles. He gently pressed in the seed, and kept the top moist and watched the pot every day. Still Jun's seed did not grow.

Strong, powerful stalks soon emerged from the pots cared for by other boys in Jun's village. Jun was thrown into despair. The other boys laughed at him and started to mockingly say "as empty as Jun's pot" if there were no treats in their pockets, or if they had just finished their bowls of rice. Jun repotted his plant yet again, this time sprinkling dried fish throughout the soil as fertilizer. Even so, his seed did not grow.

Six month's passed. The day approached when the boys were supposed to bring their plants to the palace for judging. Cheun, Manchu, Wong and hundreds of other boys cleaned their pots till they shone, gently wiped the great leaves till the green veins glistened, and prepared themselves by dressing in their finest clothes. Some mothers or fathers walked alongside their son to hold the plant upright as he carried the pot to the palace, to keep the plant from tipping over.

"What will I do?" wailed Jun to his parents as he gazed out the window at the other boys joyfully preparing their triumphant return to the palace. "My seed wouldn't grow! My pot is empty!"

"You did the best you could," said his father, shaking his head. Added his mother, "Jun, just bring the emperor your pot," said his mother, "it was the best you could do."

Shame-faced, Jun carried his empty pot on the road to the palace, while gleeful boys carrying pots tottering with huge plants strode to his right and left.

At the palace, all the boys lined up in rows with their blossoming plants and awaited judgment. The Emperor, wrapped in his richly embroidered silk robe, strode down the line of hopeful entrants, viewing each plant with a frown. When he came to Jun, he scowled even more and said, "What is this? You brought me an empty pot?"

It was all Jun could do to keep from crying. "If you please, Your Majesty," said Jun, "I tried my best. I planted your seed with the best soil I could find, I kept it moist and watched it every day. When the seed didn't grow I repotted it in new soil, and I even repotted it again. But it just didn't grow. I'm sorry." Jun hung his head.

"Hmm," said the Emperor. Turning so everyone could hear he thundered, "I don't know where all these other boys got their seeds. There is no way anything could grow from the seeds we passed out for the contest, because those seeds had all been cooked!"

And he smiled at Jun.

So, in this Chinese parable, life is not about self-preservation and to keep up appearances. It’s about being honest and living with integrity. It’s because the freedom of your own mind is all you really have. In a lot of ways, it allows you not to care what others think (and vice versa - not being paranoid about what others think empowers you to be honest).

When we enter the here-after with our empty pots, we can say we tried but this is the best we could do with the seed given to us. Hopefully, honesty counts for something.

Amen.

_____________________________
(End Talk)



Reader's Digest Version...

He was caught off-guard with the assignment over the phone by the bishop a few days before. The topic was honesty & integrity and he was specifically instructed to "be sure and bear your testimony at the end of the talk." He's a closet non-believer and finds very little of that (honesty and integrity) being practiced by those around him from church as they interact with him. This is actually what contributed quite a bit towards his disaffection. Now that he's spending a bit more time with me, they keep trying to find ways to get in between us and obligate him in to attending each week instead.

We tried to keep the talk very neutral (my wife was fully expecting me to go negative, so I couldn't or I would lose any progress made with her so far) and let people get what they needed or wanted to get out of it. I actually came across the parable over on the board at postmormon.org. Someone had linked to it and I thought it was awesome. I toned down the comments at the end and made it very basic. He got up and read it but stuttered a bit through his delivery. His testimony at the end consisted only that honesty is a good thing when we practice it. He did receive a lot of positive feedback after.

I sent him the following text when he was done... "Don't sweat it. I'm sure you did awesome. That wasn't easy getting up there as a closet non-believer and giving a talk about honesty to a crowd of sheep who, some willfully, some not, just don't get it. You had the courage to bring your "empty pot." That wasn't easy. The system, by its very nature, fosters and rewards dishonesty. I'm sorry you're trapped in it for now. You are my hero, DS!"

For me, this talk was all about that--the courage to bring his empty pot.

Many people who are much older than he have a lot less integrity than he has. He's a good man already.

Beautiful!!!!!!!

Subtitle yet extremely powerful--- at least for thinking folk.

I wonder how the morgbots reconciled it.

Bite Me, what kind of positive feedback did he get?

A lot of them hadn't heard it before, so they really liked the story. They of course viewed it through the TBM lens and didn't realize that he doesn't believe at all.

Just as an aside, there were two posts from the original post/thread on Postmormon.org that really hit it well. I just couldn't have him use them worded the way they were...even though I REALLY wanted to.

"So in this Chinese parable life is a test, but not a test like Mormons teach. It's not a test to see how well we follow the prophet but a test to see which of us are elect enough to see that the prophet is a con man. The Wizard of Oz had a similar theme. On it's surface all those Ozzites were happily serving the wizard but those of us watching the story unfold know that only apostates like Dorothy really won."

and

"Thanks for the great parable. I have often wondered whether the true test is one of honesty. God couldn't possibly expect us to believe in the church (or him, for that matter) based on the information he has provided"

Bite Me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I sent him the following text when he was done...
> "Don't sweat it. I'm sure you did awesome. That
> wasn't easy getting up there as a closet
> non-believer and giving a talk about honesty to a
> crowd of sheep who, some willfully, some not, just
> don't get it. You had the courage to bring your
> "empty pot." That wasn't easy. The system, by its
> very nature, fosters and rewards dishonesty. I'm
> sorry you're trapped in it for now. You are my
> hero, DS!"

This is my favorite part.

Hey, I loved it! I have never heard that story.

Good for your son. And his empty pot.

Thank you. I had never heard it either. When I read it, it fit perfectly.

I love this story. I had heard it before and it makes me think of the pinewood derby.

No doubt! You know little Johnny didn't get within 10 ft. of that car when it was being built. Hahaha!

My favorite quote to Mormons is from a famous, beloved, founding father: "It is the duty of every citizen to question authority." by Benjamin Franklin. I don't think that is going too far. I would follow it up that BF did not qualify "authority" which means we should question ALL authority.

Would you be ashamed?

This question deserves to be asked.