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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 05:32PM

Don’t Call it “Darwinism”
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12052-008-0111-2

Quote: "When scientists and teachers use “Darwinism” as synonymous with evolutionary biology, it reinforces such a misleading portrayal and hinders efforts to present the scientific standing of evolution accurately. Accordingly, the term “Darwinism” should be abandoned as a synonym for evolutionary biology."

That was her clarion call in 2009. I wonder how many fellow Darwinists heeded her. One can check the evolution genre to verify this.

Not many.

Darwinism is a religion. And Darwinists love their religion. They're not going to abandon it for genuine science.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 09:53PM by Susan I/S.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 05:47PM

. . . and, yes, a lot wrong.

But not to worry--that is, if you know how the self-correcting processes of science work (which you obviously don't).

It is the nature of scientific investigation--involving empirical confirmation or denial of claims relying on tools of observable, testable, falsifiable evidence--to propose theories, then to examine them through the systematic and open critiquing process of peer review. This rigorous methodological approach serves to hone and increase human knowledge. The scientific method of interpreting the world around us shapes, adjusts and advances our knowledge base over time and (unlike religion) remains the best, most reliable tool humans have at their dispoal to sift fact from fiction.

What Eugenie C. Scott is proposing is not an abandoment of Charles Darwin but, rather, a tightening and useage of terms within the bigger picture of advancing science, so that ill-informed religionists in their wacky world of pseudo-scientific "creationism" cannot use Darwin in misleading and often disingenuous ways to peddle their theological snake oil at the expense of reputable, proveable, genuine science.

From the abstract to which you link:

"Evolutionary biology owes much to Charles Darwin, whose discussions of common descent and natural selection provide the foundations of the discipline.

"But evolutionary biology has expanded well beyond its foundations to encompass ma'y theories and concepts unknown in the 19th century. The term “Darwinism' is, therefore, ambiguous and misleading. Compounding the problem of 'Darwinism' is the hijacking of the term by creationists to portray evolution as a dangerous ideology—an 'ism'—that has no place in the science classroom.

"When scientists and teachers use 'Darwinism” as synonymous with evolutionary biology, it reinforces such a misleading portrayal and hinders efforts to present the scientific standing of evolution accurately. Accordingly, the term 'Darwinism' should be abandoned as a synonym for evolutionary biology."

(To read Scott's article in its entirety, co-authored with Glenn Branch, entitled, "Overcoming Obstacles to Evolution Education: Don't Call It 'Darwinism.'" see: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12052-008-0111-2/fulltext.html)


I also strongly recommend that you read Mario Livio's book, "Brilliant Blunders and the Genuises Who Made Them from Darwin to Einstein: Colossal Mistakes by Great Scientists that Changed Our Understanding of Life and the Universe" (2013, Simon and Schuster, 340 pp)

That recommendation made, theists prefer that atheists process like theists do; namely, in terms and context of "belief." Theists are big into "belief"-thinking (a true oxymoron) and seek to control the court by telling atheists that they (atheists) "believe" in their own "religion" of atheism. Religious processing of ideas through the use of "belief" language is the only kind of lingo that theists really know and feel comfortable with. It is a familiar, thumb-sucking Linus-like blanket to them.

http://possil.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/linus-blanket.gif


Therefore, it not only makes theists feel angry, it makes them feel uneasy and vulnerable when they are confronted with non-believers who don't buy into the believer's game of thought control through theistic terminology control. Deep down, theists may well realize that thinking is more grounded than believing. (For evidence of that, one need look no further than the futile and dishonest attempts by anti-science creationists to gain credibility in the real world by wrapping their other-worldly religious beliefs in the trappings of pseudo-scientific language).

Atheists scare the hell out of theists.
____


Back to Eugenie Scott, whom I know. She is a physical anthropologist and director of the National Center for Science Education, based in San Diego, California. We first met a few years ago over a B&B breakfast at a national convention for the Freedom from Religion Foundation where we were both program speakers. During the course of friendly conversation, she mentioned that she was taking a group of scientists and interested laypersons on a river-rafting trip through the Grand Canyon. I had always wanted to go on such an expedition so I notified my regular group of hiking friends (all scientists themselves) with whom I take annual excursions into the national parklands and wilderness areas of West. We decided to put it on our to-do list and soon thereafter found ourselves on a nine-day white-water/calm-eddy river raft of the Colorado River in the company of a group of various science professionals (including geneticists, biologists, anthropologists and physicists).

It was an amazing and educating experience, with Eugenie at the helm. She's a critical thinker who uses language much more preciesly than theists do. Those, like her, in the professional scientific community who understand the importance of word-meaning don't "believe" in evolution any more than they "believe" in god. Rather, they "accept" evolution as fact.

During the course of the 200 mile-plus trip that wound its way through the Grand Canyon, we camped out at night on the Colorado's sandbars and during the day--launching from a point in the Grand Canyon where the rocks, sediments and fossils were the oldest--steadily made our way along the river, examining the observable evidence for the long-term evolution of the Canyon. What was particularly interesting was to have compare-and-contrast presentations made by scientists along the way regarding the real-science evolutionary vs. the pseudo-science creationary explanations for how the Grand Canyon physically came to be.

Eugenie has made it a point, then and since, that when educating supporters of evolution on how to deal with an remarkably uninformed and illiterate public, it is very important to "watch your language," so to speak. In efforts to defend and explain the realities of evolution to novices and (in particular) to anti-science religious believer types, language is a critically important tactical device for use in the delivery of facts.

Below is the text of an interview with her on the importance of using words, language and terminology precisely and meaningfully:

"Watch your language! It’s a common message from Eugenie Scott, a physical anthropologist and director of the National Center for Science Education (www.ncseweb.org), an organization dedicated to promoting and defending the teaching of evolution in public schools. Scott recently spoke with Science News writer Susan Milius.

"[Question to Scott]: 'So you urge scientists not to say that they 'believe' in evolution?!'

"[Scott's answer]: 'Right. What your audience hears is more important than what you say. . . .What [people] hear is that evolution is a belief, it’s an opinion, it’s not well-substantiated science. And that is something that scientists need to avoid communicating.

"'You believe in God. You believe your sports team is going to win. But you don’t believe in cell division. You don’t believe in thermodynamics. Instead, you might say you 'accept evolution.'

"Q: 'How does the language used to discuss new discoveries add to the problem?'

"Scott: 'To put it mildly, it doesn’t help when evolutionary biologists say things like, “This completely revolutionizes our view of X.” Because hardly anything we come up with is going to completely revolutionize our view of the core ideas of science. . . . An insight into the early ape-men of East and South Africa is not going to completely change our understanding of Neandertals, for example. So the statement is just wrong. Worse, it’s miseducating the public as to the soundness of our understanding of evolution.

"'You can say that this fossil or this new bit of data 'sheds new light on this part of evolution.'

"Q: 'So people get confused when scientists discover things and change ideas?'

"Scott: 'Yes, all the time. This is one of the real confusions about evolution. Creationists have done a splendid job of convincing the public that evolution is weak science because scientists are always changing their minds about things.'

"Q: 'So how do you explain what science is?'

"Scott: 'An idea that I stole from [physicist] James Trefil visualizes the content of science as three concentric circles: the core ideas in the center, the frontier ideas in the next ring out and the fringe ideas in the outermost ring. . . .

"'[We need to] help the public understand that the nature of scientific explanations is to change with new information or new theory — this is a strength of science — but that science is still reliable. And the core ideas of science do not change much, if at all.

"'The core idea of evolution is common ancestry, and we’re not likely to change our minds about that. But we argue a lot about … how the tree of life is branched and what mechanisms bring evolutionary change about. That’s the frontier area of science.

"'And then of course you have areas that claim to be science, like "creation science" and "intelligent design,” that are off in the fringe. Scientists don’t spend much time here because the ideas haven’t proven useful in understanding the natural world.

"Q: 'You’ve been on talk radio a lot. What’s your sense of what the public understands about evolutionary biology?'

"Scott: 'The public has a very poor understanding of evolution. People don’t recognize evolution as referring to the common ancestry of living things. Even those who accept evolution often don’t understand it well. They think it’s a great chain . . . of gradual increases in complexity of forms through time, which is certainly an impoverished view of evolutionary biology. That view is the source, in my opinion, of: “If man evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?” ... That’s probably the second most common question I get on talk radio.

"'It’s like saying, "If you evolved from your cousins, why are your cousins still here?" And of course the answer is, well, in fact, I didn’t evolve from my cousins. My cousins and I shared common ancestors, in our grandparents.'

"Q: 'What’s the current state of the effort to keep schools teaching evolution?'

"Scott: 'Sometimes it feels like the Red Queen around here, where we’re running as hard as we can to stay in the same place. The thing is, creationism evolves. And for every victory we have, there’s pressure on the creationists to change their approach. We constantly have to shift our response. Ultimately the solution to this problem is not going to come from pouring more science on it."

"Q: 'What should scientists and people who care about science do?'

"Scott: 'I’m calling on scientists to be citizens. American education is decentralized. Which means it’s politicized. To make a change . . . you have to be a citizen who pays attention to local elections and votes [for] the right people. You can’t just sit back and expect that the magnificence of science will reveal itself and everybody will . . . accept the science."

(Eugenie Scott, "Accept It: Talk about Evolution Needs to Evolve," in "Science News: Magazine for the Society for Science and the Public," vol. 176, #3, 1 August 2009, p. 32, at: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/45594/title/Comment__Accept_it_Talk_about_evolution_needs_to_evolve; for a related thread, see: "Why I hate the phrase 'I don't believe in god.'" posted by "kolobian," on "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board, 5 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357373)

*****


You don't have to be scared of her, "katuwiran, or of science. But you are stuck in the language of religion because you obviously don't know how else to communicate your ideas. Instead of lashing out theistically, try thinking rationally. It's more reliable and would make you look less nutty and uneducated.



Edited 29 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 10:36PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 08:49PM

I don't know if you were referring to me on a prior post when you said something about hitting a nerve. I wasn't being sarcastic. I really do want to see the atheists hammer the theists into submission. It's not about language or my personal beliefs. I really do think atheists are innocuous. At least, they are to me. I figure I stand a better chance of doing what I want in an atheistic society. It's just a selfish wish.

As R. Packham pointed out, atheists only share one thing: a lack of belief (or whatever anyone wants to call it). I'm thinking about it, and I don't think atheists care to get involved in my choices, regardless of whether my choices are based on some strange belief or a well-reasoned conclusion. Of course, if atheists don't win the day, the various theist groups will keep at each other's throat and I can go about my business.

I suppose I could choose between science and religion and make a pronouncement. It would only take a few seconds. But, I just came across a great Joe Pass CD and it makes it all seem irrelevant. Please carry on the good fight.

(Joe Pass Plays the Music of Django Reinhardt: Cavalerie)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 08:53PM by thingsithink.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 09:27PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 09:28PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 05:54PM

I sure like the word "Darwinize" though. :D :D :D

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 06:34PM

I seldom see a layman who is so good at taking a factual statement and using loaded language, hyperbole, and outright falsehoods to turn it into something totally different. Do you work for Fox News (hahahaha, it always makes me laugh when I add the word "news" to "Fox") by any chance?

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Posted by: BadGirl ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 07:11PM


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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 11:51PM

I was wondering the same thing. Did the OP completely miss the point in what s/he read?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 11:59PM


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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: July 12, 2013 07:07PM

We sang songs praising evolution before eating the flesh and drinking the blood of monkeys in tribute to our ancestors.

Then we had testimonials of how evolution was true and personal stories of how Charles Darwin improved our lives.

Afterwards there was a potluck and everyone avoided the Petersons because they're a family of nutjobs.

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Posted by: crom ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 01:28AM

Funny!!!Really Funny!!

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Posted by: crom ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 12:25AM

OP seems to assume that people who disagree with her/him are expressing the beliefs of a different religion. The wrong one obviously, the one that believes "wrong" things.

Science is not a religion.

Why do some religious folks assume that everyone else "just believes"* like they do. Scientists gather evidence and publish in peer reviewed journals. They do a he11 of a lot more than "just believe".

*BOM the Musical lyrics.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 12:46AM


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Posted by: charles, not logged in ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 03:22AM

as a means to polarize the discussion between 'Creationism' and "them folks who believe in evolution". As for "They're not going to abandon it for genuine science." I wonder if by genuine science they mean Creationist science, you know the one where we tell blind men to put mud over their eyes to cure their blindness; the one where, when a person has an epileptic seizure, we call in the exorcist because a devil is possessing them; the 'genuine science' which teaches that plants sprung up on earth before there was even a light source.

I wonder if the fellows who detest science because it's "only" made by man, have ever stopped taking medicines for their illnesses, or have taken to walking because they don't believe in riding combustible engines that might blow up on them, or if they hide under bushes to poop because they don't understand plumbing.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 10:44AM

As well as the word "scientism" and the assertion that atheism is a "belief".

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 03:09PM

And the fact that he talks about "belief" so much merely proves my point that goofy theists are stuck in their babble box of scientific illiteracy, where they are unable to communicate scientifically and therefore resort to projecting their loony lordy lingo on to scientists because they (the theists) can't meaningfully speak or comprehend in any language other than their baby-level Biblical gibberish.

But they, no doubt, take all that as a compliment because their Jesus has commanded them to become like little children anyway; otherwise, they can't get into heaven with all the other dumb followers of God.

It is really kinda pathetic when you THINK about it.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 03:15PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: archytas ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 10:24AM

katuwiran, it's a good thing you're not beholden to any religion or dogma...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 10:24AM by archytas.

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 10:31AM

and "genuine science" would be Adam and Eve riding dinosaurs I presume?

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 10:46AM

There's practically no use of the phrase when actually studying evolution academically. The term "believe" itself is not only unnecessary in science, it's antithetical. Science does not have a built-in "belief in belief" like religion(Daniel C. Dennett). It's unnecessary because the whole point of science is to discover realities empirically, which, by definition, does not require belief since they are apparent. But, belief is antithetical to science anyway because the very meaning of belief is an alternative to empirical epistemology.

So, no, evolution and "Darwinism" is not a "religion". However, I do find it ironic that creationists are actually being derogatory when they say so. Their intention is to make it seem like their religion and evolution are on the same plane and should be equally considered and respected, but actually by calling evolution a religion (since evolution is not a religion), they inadvertently end up ridiculing their own religion.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 10:58AM

Sure, if a scientific theory is compared to a boat, it may have a few leaks from time to time, but science quickly studies, and finds patches for these weeks, in other words they tweak the theory as new information becomes available. Meanwhile here is a picture of a ship that sums up how well the theory of Creationism is doing.

http://www.endalldisease.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/titanic-sinking-underwater.jpg

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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 12:56PM

As I mentioned in a post that mysteriously got deleted...

Darwinism doesn't make me afraid. It's not science. It's a philosophical boat with a big hole. That's why Eugenie Scott calls for the abandonment of the term Darwinism itself, a call that no Darwinist these days seem to have heard.

Few defenders of Darwinism remember what the original Darwinian evolution theory stated, that is, "evolution by NATURAL SELECTION" that happens over long periods of time.

But as Charles Darwin himself admitted, the fact of the fossil record known as the "Cambrian Explosion" can render his theory false. The Cambrian Explosion shows that biological life appeared on earth without Darwinian evolution.

And so, Darwinists had more than a 100 years to find an explanation to this "anomaly". So far they've failed. Miserably.

The idea that Darwinism has a few leaks that can be tweaked is of course laughable. The Cambrian Explosion lasted for millions of years. This is not a minor leak.

On the other hand, when someone deletes my posts and prevents me from responding, we all should know who is afraid of whom.

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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 01:01PM

Again...

I never brought out the topic creationism nor intelligent design, yet everyone here seems to be jumping the gun on it.

Why are you all being so defensive?

Let's stick to the topic and talk about Eugenie Scott.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 02:59PM

You brought it up first.

So, last week the pastor said, "We have some guest speakers today who have been 'naturally selected,'" and the whole audience gave a monotonous short laugh like you'd hear at general conference.

Sweet Darwin, I wish he'd let that joke go extinct.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 02:44PM

The Cambrian Explosion is an EXAMPLE of Darwinian evolution.
I don't get it, why is it a problem for evolution?

The Cambrian explosion, essentially, was the advent of multicellular life about 600 million years ago. It happened relatively rapidly, on the order of tens of millions of years, which in geology is a blink of an eye and hence the euphemism "explosion".
Early on in geology and biology this abrupt advent of fossil complexity and diversity looked a lot like someone, like god, had tampered with what might be expected to be a slow steady rate of change. But a slow steady rate of change is not at all required by evolution.
It's relatively slow...meaning that like watching a tree grow we can't see it happen in real time...but that doesn't mean it's constant.
Evolution must occur with what's already there. It can't jump over non-existent transitional forms.
That's what we see in the Cambrian Explosion. The new fossils didn't come out of nowhere after all. They still followed after preexisting forms. The rapidity was for two main reasons...first is that unicellular life had finally reached a mature enough threshold where it was ABLE to become multicellular (which in itself required vast complexity taking longer to happen than multicellular life has existed since). Second was that the environment was changing and life was the main factor in changing its own environment. There are qualitative thresholds that are reached abruptly, but after a long time, like reaching a destination. For example, oxygen is a by-product of life and took a long time to accumulate in the atmosphere to levels that we can breathe or that can combust, but the advent of that level was abrupt. So, overnight, fire happened. Fire of course is a major force in nature and we can see the response throughout the biosphere to this new force that simply wasn't present before there was enough oxygen for it.
There are lurches in the timeline of evolution and they are quite explicable, not at all falsifying of evolution in themselves and actually a vivid example of how evolution works.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 03:20PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 03:48PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 03:33PM

... demonstrably occurred over long periods of time through a combination of "natural selection" and "mutation"?

Or of how "uniformitariasm" is the generally observed track of evolution but that the geologic record also shows evidence of "catastrophism" playing a role in species change, especially when combined with "geographic isolation" of given populations?

Or of how tracking of "microchondrial DNA" provides empirical confirmation of evolution occurring over long periods of time from simple to complex?

Didn't think so.

You know precious little about Darwin or about science in general.

Your assessment of Eugenie C. Scott's position was a complete misrepresentation of her views, rooted in your profound ignorance of what she was actually talking about, all wrapped up in your microscopic grasp of science at the most basic of levels.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2013 02:03AM by Susan I/S.

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Posted by: crom ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 01:29PM

The info you cite to support your idea dates back to Darwin himself. You then claim that evolutionary biologists have failed to adequately explain the "Cambrian Explosion" in the intervening 100 years ergo Evolution Science fails.

YOU are full of crap.

You frame the proposal and then disregard the intervening evidence to achieve the answer you want.

In reality scientists have discovered a significant amount of new evidence regarding the Cambrian explosion. Do they have all the evidence they need for a definitive answer? Hell no. But unlike religious dogma they don't pretend to have all the answers. They have the information discovered to date, make hypotheses, and then look for more evidence.

Don't be a jerk. Don't out of hand dismiss the work of thousands of hard working individuals so you can feel safe and secure in your uninformed opinions that you don't wish to change.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion#How_real_was_the_explosion.3F



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 02:12PM by crom.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 03:14PM

It's the "everything is not known therefore god did it" argument.

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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 03:56PM

"The Cambrian Explosion is an EXAMPLE of Darwinian evolution.
I don't get it, why is it a problem for evolution?"

-----

That's the problem with defenders of this Darwinian religion. They don't get it.

First, start off with what Charles Darwin had to say about evolution by NATURAL SELECTION.

Then you go with his OWN admission that the Cambrian Explosion is problematic for his theory. But then he hopes that someday, new evidence will resolve this.

Add 100 years. Darwinists have had a 100 years to explain the anomaly.

They haven't found a decent one. That's their problem. But they don't tell you that.

----------------------

"Evolution must occur with what's already there. It can't jump over non-existent transitional forms.
That's what we see in the Cambrian Explosion. The new fossils didn't come out of nowhere after all. They still followed after preexisting forms."

Did you get this idea from Apostle Richard Dawkins, WTT (Worlds Top Thinker)?

Here is a better one...

"The Cambrian period, part of the Paleozoic era, produced the most intense burst of evolution ever known. The Cambrian Explosion saw an incredible diversity of life emerge, including many major animal groups alive today. Among them were the chordates, to which vertebrates (animals with backbones) such as humans belong.

What sparked this biological bonanza isn't clear..."

http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/cambrian/

That's right. IT ISN'T CLEAR.

And the reason it isn't clear is because it turns Darwinian evolution theory on its head. But they don't tell you that.

And that is why Eugenie Scott has a big hole in her boat. Time to abandon ship.

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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 04:18PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion


"The Cambrian explosion has generated EXTENSIVE SCIENTIFIC debate."

[If Darwinian evolution was so sound, what's the debate all about?]

"... The seemingly RAPID appearance of fossils in the “Primordial Strata” was noted as early as the 1840s,[8] and in 1859 Charles Darwin discussed it as one of the main objections that could be made against his theory of evolution by natural selection.[9] The long-running puzzlement about the appearance of the Cambrian fauna, seemingly abruptly and from nowhere, centers on three key points: whether there really was a mass diversification of complex organisms over a relatively short period of time during the early Cambrian; what might have caused such rapid change; and what it would imply about the origin and evolution of animals."

[Wasn't Darwinian evolution supposed to occur very slowly? Well, unfortunately few Darwinian defenders nowadays remember that this was how the theory was supposed to be.]


"Interpretation is difficult due to a limited supply of evidence, based mainly on an incomplete fossil record and chemical signatures remaining in Cambrian rocks."

[Sounds like... we don't have enough archaeological evidence for the Lamanites. But that isn't enough reason to abandon Mormonism.]

------

Any scientific theory that is as holey as Darwinism would have been abandoned long ago, if after 100 years its proponents still have to explain a major anomaly.

Darwinism isn't science. It is religion. Wake up boys and girls.

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Posted by: tapirsaddle ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 04:04PM

Charles Darwin is synonymous with evolution because he drew the most attention to it. The idea of evolution and natural selection had been around long before him.

So, when creationists squawk about "Darwinism," they are really showing their hand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 04:04PM by tapirsaddle.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: July 13, 2013 09:56PM

Hey katuwiran, NONE OF YOUR POSTS HAVE BEEN DELETED. The ones calling you an idiot and a jackass have been deleted. Next time you have a problem with admin MAIL ExMoLight@gmail.com. Take some time to read the stickies at the top of the board. You will find that bitching about a delete will mean having your post pulled.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: July 14, 2013 12:46AM


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