x-post to a few exmo groups, sorry if this is a repeat for some I'm looking for as many ideas as possible.

One of the reasons I left mormonism is because I always felt like a 2nd class citizen because I'm female ... When I mentioned this to my TBM step-mom shortly after I resigned she adamantly denied that women are 2nd class citizens within mormonism and brought up the fact that women could vote in Utah territory (before it was a state and before women could vote in US) and she denies that women are encouraged to skip education and go straight to baby factory (she apparently had a liberal bishop that approved of using birth control), she also denies that women are commanded to obey their husbands.

any thoughts?

I need to clarify on the original post ... My mom died when I was a teen and my dad remarried ... I consider my step-mom a friend, and as my hubby is estranged completely from his family this is the only Grandma my children have and she's a really nice person.

As much as I disliked the paternalism and misogyny inherent in the mormon culture, I was never that impressed with the "power" the men got. I mean honestly, besides the few who just get off on feeling their titles are terribly important, what does the average man in the church get?

Okay, they get the education and the jobs, which they use to pay tithing and support a depressed wife and pack of kids. They get "leadership" callings, which entail donating countless hours to pointless work. They get to give blessings that don't actually do anything.

As unfulfilling as being a woman in the church is, unless you're in the top tier, I was never jealous of the menfolk.

Don't get me wrong, women get the shaft in the church in many ways. I just don't think the men have it all that great,

I think you both have valid points. Some women feel like 2nd class citizens in the church. Other women don't feel that way at all. I don't think it's just that those of us who feel ignored are touchy or that those who feel equal are oblivious. I think everyone has different ways of perceiving things, different personalities, different leaders, different wards with different cultures. And some women are not interested in feminism at all. That's their right, I suppose, though I personally disagree with them.

One of the biggest problems I have with the church on a day-to-day basis is its benevolent sexism, this idea that women are pure and wonderful and men are base and vile. Women need to protect themselves from men via modesty, etc. Women don't need the priesthood b/c they are so fabulous all on their own. Women are naturally better nurturers. Etc. Many women are flattered by benevolent sexism but I am not. It's convenient that its initials are B.S. b/c that's what I think it is!

Watch the motion picture, "The Help". In it you will see a perfect depiction of the attitude the TSCC has toward women. I'm not referring to the "coloreds", but rather to the white women, whose place it was- and still is, in Mormondom, to simply sit back and be told what to do and never make any decisions on their own.

Oh yes I was told going to college (like BYU) like a lot of my peers were doing at the time was NOT for getting an education, it was for "getting a man". I got my endowments at 23 voluntarily, not because I was getting married , neither did I go on a Mormon mission either. But afterwards my Sunday school teacher she did the Garment check thing and said to me: "Well, now you HAVE to Accept Polygamy." (!!??!!!) Totally bewildered I was. I also saw a guy for awhile that told me the kind of woman he wanted to be with had to accept Polygamy, and this is not Utah were talking about here, it's northern VA.

Utah is well below the national average in women completing a 4 year college degree.

I think they are dead last on the percentage of in-state female applicants to medical school.

You will never see a woman "preside" at any LDS function that includes males over age 12. Women can be in charge of other women, or children. Period. Women may "conduct" at mixed-gender functions, though even that is rare, but they will never preside. "The Priesthood" will forever and always be in charge.

Sounds second class to me.

(Being lazy here and not looking things up, but details and proof is readily available.)

I used to be impressed by Utah giving suffrage to women before the rest of the USA. Now I know it was done to give Mormons a numerical advantage over non-Mormons at the voting booth. Which makes sense: Mormon settlers tended to be whole families--including adult husbands AND wives-- whereas as non-Mormons who headed westward were often single men who planned to get established first and then worry about marrying. So, female suffrage for the church's benefit rather than women's.

And to borrow a saying, "What have you done for me lately?" Rather than being a champion of women's rights, the LDS Church has actively opposed equal rights for women. It was one of the primary opponents of the Equal Rights Amendment, going so far as to excommunicate LDS women who were vocal proponents of it.

Even more recently, look at all the speakers at General Conference who said, in effect, "OK, a few women wanted to wear pants to church, but tbat doesn't mean they want the priesthood. No real TBM woman wants that," with the unmistakable subtext that if a woman DID want that, she wasn't TBM.

And look at the Proclamation on the Family. Not only does it say God requires heterosexual pairing off, it spells out the role each gender is permitted within the family. What of the nuturing male who wants to be a stay-at-home dad, or the woman with a fulfilling career who'd rather work than stay home? Both are out of luck. Feminism is about letting everyone, whatever their gender, to strive for their full potential, and to be able make choices that bring them fulfillment. The LDS Church says, "Screw that. Your genitalia controls your choice."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 09:36AM by mysid.

I didn't want the priesthood because I knew it wasn't real. All I wanted was to be able to do my job as a Primary Counselor without some man having to check off on everything simply because he was a man. The PP could have done a better job at it. All I wanted was to be treated equally & fairly. I got neither in my 25 years - birth to almost 25 years old - in the cult. I was constantly told what women & girls could & couldn't do. The rules for girls are different in the cult. There were more restrictions placed on us that made absolutely no sense. We were 4th class "citizens". We always had to defend ourselves & our decisions - against the men, & even against a lot of the women. (When I say "we", that includes me & a few other girls, some of whom are still religious, either in the cult or members of other churches now.)

As a young kid, 6 years old, realizing that I wasn't going to be able to pass the sacrament was devastating.

Yeah, I say I'm old, but really I'm just 37, so most of this went on in the 80s & 90s, with me leaving at at the end of 2000. So this didn't happen a long, long time ago.

Two historical notes: Before about 1981 there were no rules about females being Sunday School presidents. My ward called a fully capable, qualified young woman (it was a singles' ward) to be Sunday School president. She was the church's first and last female SS president. Within literally ten days of her being called, the church issued a proclamation declaring that no way in hell could a non-Priesthood holder be in any way qualified to be SS president.

Also around the same time: it was customary at baby blessings to let the father stand in the circle even if he were not a Priesthood holder (such as non-member or recent convert). A few women started to request that they also be allowed to stand in, seeing as how they had done all the work in gestating and birthing said children. As before, within weeks of getting wind of this, the church issued a proclamation declaring that no way in hell could non-Priesthood holders be qualified to stand in at baby blessings.

They wonder why "the world" sees them as wierd.

In my sister's ward, a woman is the executive secretary. I seriously think this is being done under the radar, & if the higher ups at COB caught wind of it, a lot of people would be in trouble.

I think TSCC is particularly hard for women who live independent lives outside of their church callings. I own my own business, all the decisions are made by me. In TSCC the smallest decisions have to be approved by a priesthood holder.

Since TSCC doesn't have paid local clergy, it's even hader to deal with the fact that everything has to be approved. The man who needs to give approval, so that the plans can go forward, is working a full time job and often doesn't get back to you for days. It's inefficient and that drove me crazy. I'm busy, as well, and I needed to get the job done so that I could focus on other aspects of my life.

In Territorial days the church announced a slate of candidates. They ran on "The people's party" ticket. Votes were not cast secretly. End result was that the church candidates typically received 90plus percent of the vote. Giving women the vote made sure that Polygamist men (the higher status men) had more votes to cast.

Result was that voter turnout kept getting smaller; what was the point in casting votes?