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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 02:38AM

I really find it intriguing that Darwinist Eugenie Scott would advocate dropping the term Darwinism and "watching your language" when talking about Darwinian evolution.

Think about it: If a physicist were to be careless in his language and say that he "believes quarks exist", would that really be a big deal? Does he have to be straitjacketed into saying "he accepts the existence of quarks"? Semantic issues like these are not likely to occur in physics. But they're big deal in the evolution religion where doctrines cannot be questioned under pain of persecution.

Anyway, the good news about Scott's advocacy is that none of her peers seems to be listening to her. One only has to check the current Darwinist literature to find that endearing term is still there.

But there are other reasons why no one should take her version of Darwinism seriously. It's there in Steve Benson's quote about her interview:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/45594/description/Accept_it_Talk_about_evolution_needs_to_evolve_

-----
Eugenie Scott: "'[We need to] help the public understand that the nature of scientific explanations is to change with new information or new theory — this is a strength of science — but that science is still reliable. And the core ideas of science do not change much, if at all.

"'The core idea of evolution is common ancestry, and we’re not likely to change our minds about that. But we argue a lot about … how the tree of life is branched and what mechanisms bring evolutionary change about. That’s the frontier area of science."
-----

The Tree of Life is a representation of the idea of common ancestry. And common ancestry is the core idea of Darwinian evolution according to Scott.

Therefore: No Tree of Life, no common ancestry. No common ancestry, no core idea.

"Charles Darwin's tree of life is 'wrong and misleading', claim scientists"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/4312355/Charles-Darwins-tree-of-life-is-wrong-and-misleading-claim-scientists.html

Darwin's tree of life is "politely being buried" as the article reported. Buried by waters is more like it.

It's unfortunate that Skipper Scott's sinking boat is made from the Darwinian Tree of Life. If scientists are not convinced by it, whose left to convince? The ignorant masses? I can only imagine why she has a dire need to convince the public of her, ahem, "beliefs" in a tree of life.

The most memorable denial of Eugenie Scott's core idea in evolution comes from the renowned geneticist J. Craig Venter's encounter with Apostle Richard "World's Top Thinker" Dawkins, another tree-of-lifer like Scott, during a panel discussion on the Origins of Life at Arizona State University. This has to be watched to be enjoyed:

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-great-debate-what-is-life/what-is-life-panel

Atheism doesn't scare me. There are no good intellectual reasons to be one. And it's fun watching their boats sink.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 03:56AM

. . . for reasons that have already been patiently explained to you. What Eugenie C. Scott has proposed is not an abandonment of Charles Darwin but, rather, a tightening and useage of terms within the bigger picture of advancing science, so that ill-informed religionists in their wacky world of pseudo-scientific "creationism" cannot use Darwin in misleading and often disingenuous ways to peddle their theological snake oil at the expense of reputable, proveable, genuine science.

Yet, you remain sadly and stubbornly ill-informed on the entire subject and, more than that, you have been patently dishonest in your stunningly superficial, grossly inaccurate and conveniently selective childish spin that you impose on Scott's actual views.

As one observant RfM poster noted:

"'Katuwiran' has some sort of filter. Only the information she/he liked was picked out of the articles [that he/she picked]. The rest; it's like it didn't exist."

("Re: Yeah, katuwiran displayed deep ignorance," posted by "crom," on "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board," 13 July 2013, at:http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,954734,954775#msg-954775)


Most certainly (and for all to see), you have consistently demonstrated a profound, deep and religiously-intoxicated ignorance of science, falsely claiming that physical anthropologist Scott was a "Darwinist" who is now supposedly calling for the abandonment of "Darwinian" evolution because Darwin got it all wrong. (If you were on vaudeville, this is the point where you'd be hooked off the stage).

Here's your primordial posit from the dark closet:

"Darwinist Eugenie Scott: Our boat has a hole... it's time to jump!

"'Don’t Call it “Darwinism': http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12052-008-0111-2

"Quote: 'When scientists and teachers use "Darwinism" as synonymous with evolutionary biology, it reinforces such a misleading portrayal and hinders efforts to present the scientific standing of evolution accurately. Accordingly, the term “Darwinism” should be abandoned as a synonym for evolutionary biology.'

"That was her clarion call in 2009. I wonder how many fellow Darwinists heeded her. One can check the evolution genre to verify this.

"Not many.

"Darwinism is a religion. And Darwinists love their religion. They're not going to abandon it for genuine science. . . .

". . . [T]he problem with defenders of this Darwinian religion [is that] [t]hey don't get it. . . .

"[The Cambrian Explosion] turns Darwinian evolution theory on its head. But they don't tell you that. And that is why Eugenie Scott has a big hole in her boat. Time to abandon ship. . . .

"Darwinism isn't science. It is religion. Wake up boys and girls."

No offense, but you wouldn't know science if it rose up and bit you in the Pampers of your pseudo-intellectual baby crib. Your posts are a clear testament to the testifying temper tantrums of theists who know nothing meaningful about science, about the scientific method, about Darwin, about organic evolution or about critical thinking in general. Your pre-determined approach to issues beyond your comprehension is like the uneducated guy who shoots an arrow into a wall, steps forward and draws concentric circles around the arrow, then steps back and boldly declares, "Bull's-eye!"

(Here's the original thread where you got both your clock cleaned and your head handed to you on a platter: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,953786,953786#msg-953786)


Your completely-unwarranted and blindly-uneducated assault on Scott was a raping of her views--twisted like only a godly Gumby could do in order to fit your religiously dumbed-down view of the real world. But this kind of jaw-dropping illiteracy is precisely what religiously-confused advocates regard as a heavenly virtue: Namely, becoming like little children who, if they want to live forever with Jesus, must put their brains on hold and their faith in a Big Sky-Daddy.

Yes, Darwin got a lot right--and a lot wrong. But not to worry; that is, if one knows how the self-correcting processes of science work (which you obviously don't). It is the nature of scientific investigation--involving empirical confirmation or denial of claims relying on tools of observable, testable, falsifiable evidence--to propose theories, then to examine them through the systematic and open critiquing process of peer review. This rigorous methodological approach serves to hone and increase human knowledge. The scientific method of interpreting the world around us shapes, adjusts and advances our knowledge base over time and (unlike religion) remains the best, most reliable tool humans have at their dispoal to sift fact from fiction.

From the abstract to which you have linked:

"Evolutionary biology owes much to Charles Darwin, whose discussions of common descent and natural selection provide the foundations of the discipline.

"But evolutionary biology has expanded well beyond its foundations to encompass ma'y theories and concepts unknown in the 19th century. The term “Darwinism' is, therefore, ambiguous and misleading. Compounding the problem of 'Darwinism' is the hijacking of the term by creationists to portray evolution as a dangerous ideology—an 'ism'—that has no place in the science classroom.

"When scientists and teachers use 'Darwinism” as synonymous with evolutionary biology, it reinforces such a misleading portrayal and hinders efforts to present the scientific standing of evolution accurately. Accordingly, the term 'Darwinism' should be abandoned as a synonym for evolutionary biology."

Good start. Now let's go beyond that abstract and post Scott's views in fuller detail, where she explains in plain English how the term "Darwinism" is often used to hijack and misrepresent sound evolutionary science (typically as a ploy by Bible-bellowing creationists in an effort to deceive the public about the reality of organic evolution).

Scott could not be clearer:

" . . . [W]hat does 'Darwinism” mean? And how is it used? At best, the phrase is ambiguous and misleading about science. At worst, its use echoes a creationist strategy to demonize evolution.

"Even a cursory search of the Internet for 'Darwinism' reveals that the term is not used consistently. Historians and philosophers of science customarily use 'Darwinism”' to refer to the ideas advanced by Charles Darwin, especially the idea of evolution by natural selection, sometimes including related ideas such as sexual selection. This also is how Darwin’s contemporary, Alfred Russel Wallace, who independently formulated the idea of evolution by natural selection, used the term in his book 'Darwinism' (1889).

"Yet, Darwin’s account of evolution by natural selection involves two separable concepts, and it was not accepted as a whole. In 'On the Origin of Species,' Darwin persuasively presented his view that living things descended with modification from common ancestors, and within a decade or so, the majority of the scientific community in Great Britain accepted the basic idea of evolution (with North American scientists not far behind).

"Darwin’s second proposal, that the main engine driving evolutionary change was natural selection, was not nearly as successful in convincing his contemporaries. In the 19th century, a major obstacle to the acceptance of natural selection as a general mechanism of evolution was the assumption that inheritance was a blending process. Blending would result in a reduction of variation each generation, and natural selection depends on variation constantly being available. It was not until the 20th century, after the rediscovery of Mendel’s conception of particulate inheritance, that natural selection was recognized as a powerful mechanism of adaptation and change.

"The point of this historical digression is to illustrate the conceptual and historical decoupling of Darwin’s two 'big ideas'—evolution (common ancestry) and the mechanism of natural selection. The former was accepted decades in advance of the latter. Today, with the insight provided by Mendelian and molecular genetics, natural selection is recognized as a primary component of evolutionary change, especially adaptation. This further complicates the meaning of the term 'Darwinism.' Does it refer to evolution? Natural selection? Evolution by natural selection?

"Modern evolutionary biologists tend not to use 'Darwinism' very often, except—again—in a historical sense to refer to Darwin’s ideas. British biologists, perhaps motivated by patriotic pride, are more likely to refer to evolutionary biology as 'Darwinism' than their American colleagues, but even in Darwin’s homeland, the term now tends to be used as a pejorative (Liberman 2007).

"When they are speaking of the theoretical core of modern evolutionary biology, scientists tend to use the phrase 'the synthetic theory of evolution' to refer to the augmentation of Darwin’s natural selection theory with Mendelian genetics in the 1930s and 1940s, followed by the development in the 1940s and 1950s of mathematical systems allowing the modeling of evolution in populations.

"Not in his wildest dreams could Darwin have dreamed of the scope and power of developments following the modern synthesis. Petto and Godfrey (2007) list many components of modern evolutionary biology that are decidedly 'non-Darwinian' in the sense that Darwin knew nothing about them. This, of course, does not mean that they are incompatible with Darwin’s ideas, still less that they are refutations of Darwin!

"But components of modern evolutionary biology such as endosymbiosis, epigenetics, transposons, horizontal gene transfer, somatic hypermutation, neutralism, 'evo-devo,' and the like illustrate that evolutionary biology has not been idle since Darwin shuffled off this mortal coil in 1882.

"Using 'Darwinism' as synonymous with 'evolutionary biology' is thus a touch unfair to the men and women who have contributed to the scientific edifice to which Darwin provided the cornerstone, including (to name a few) Wallace, Huxley, Weisman, De Vries, Romanes, Morgan, Weidenreich, Teilhard, von Frisch, Vavilov, Wright, Fisher, Muller, Haldane, Dobzhansky, Rensch, Ford, McClintock, Simpson, Hutchinson, Lorenz, Mayr, Delbrück, Jukes, Stebbins, Tinbergen, Luria, Maynard Smith, Price, Kimura, Ostrom, Wilson, Hamilton and Gould, to say nothing of even more who are still contributing to evolutionary biology.

"As Olivia Judson (2008) recently commented, terms like 'Darwinism' 'suggest a false narrowness to the field of modern evolutionary biology, as though it was the brainchild of a single person 150 years ago, rather than a vast, complex and evolving subject to which many other great figures have contributed.'

"So, at best, 'Darwinism' is an ambiguous term, having no settled meaning more definite than something to do with Darwin’s ideas. This alone would be an adequate reason for teachers and scientists to avoid using it.

"However, there is another reason to avoid using the term: it plays into the hands of a creationist campaign to suggest that evolution is a disreputable ideology. This is not a new campaign, but intelligent design creationism—the latest incarnation of antievolutionism—prosecutes it with unprecedented vigor.

"The first step in the intelligent design creationist version of this campaign has been to encourage the public’s preexisting association of 'Darwinism' with a generic conception of evolution, as opposed to the historical Darwin’s insights.

"This is illustrated very clearly by examining a change in 'Of Pandas and People,' the intelligent design creationist textbook that figured centrally in Kitzmiller v. Dover (Lebo 2008). Figure 1 illustrates the same page from each of the two editions (Davis and Kenyon 1989; Davis and Kenyon 1993). The word 'evolutionist' in the earlier text consistently is replaced with the term 'Darwinist;''evolution' consistently is replaced by 'Darwinism' and so on.

"Fig. 1

“Evolution” and its cognates in the first edition of the intelligent design creationist textbook 'Of Pandas and People' (Davis and Kenyon 1989) were replaced with 'Darwinism' and its cognates in the second edition (Davis and Kenyon 1993)

"This conflation of the term 'Darwinism' with evolution is reflected in a project of the main intelligent design creationist organization, the Center for Science and Culture (CSC), at Seattle’s Discovery Institute. As detailed by Evans (2001), in the fall of 2001, the CSC published a full-page advertisement in three well-known national periodicals under the title 'A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.' The advertisement contained a list of about 100 scientists who affirmed a statement reading, 'We are skeptical of the claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.'

"On its face, the statement suggested only that the signers questioned the power of natural selection, although wording appearing in the advertisement surreptitiously hinted that it was evolution itself that was being questioned by the signatories, not merely the power of natural selection.

"Subsequent promotion of the 'Scientific Dissent from Darwinism' reinforced the idea that these scientists questioned evolution.

"Yet evidently not all scientists on the list knew that a statement ostensibly about natural selection would be so marketed. One signatory, Bob Davidson, a retired professor of medicine at the University of Washington, publicly withdrew his name from the list, saying, 'I didn’t think they were about bashing evolution.' He went on to say that he accepted 'the scientific evidence for evolution [as] overwhelming' (Westneat 2005). Unfortunately, polls indicate that the public disagrees (Miller et al. 2006).

"The 'Scientific Dissent from Darwinism' and state-specific spin-offs (in Texas, Ohio, and Georgia—all battlegrounds over evolution education), reinforce the public’s lack of confidence in evolution by promoting the idea that even scientists reject 'Darwinism.'

"But there is more involved here than a simple choice of terminology. By insisting on talking about 'Darwinism,' creationists are rhetorically transforming evolution into an "-ism"--a position held as a matter of ideology, rather than on the strength of the evidence.

"By the same token, 'Darwinists' is used to transform those who accept evolution into ists—devotees of '-isms'. So, for example, CSC Senior Fellow Jonathan Witt, lamenting the decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover that the teaching of intelligent design creationism in the public schools was unconstitutional, referred to Judge John E. Jones III as a “Darwinist judge” (2005)--even though Jones acknowledged that, before the trial, he had little knowledge of or interest in evolution.

"Sometimes the trick is employed with almost comical regularity, as in the last chapter of CSC Senior Fellow Jonathan Wells’s 'Icons of Evolution' (2000), where the phrase 'dogmatic Darwinists' occurs almost on every page, and often more than once.

"It is worth adding that 'Darwinism' is not just an '-ism,' it is an '-ism' that is associated with a single person. Calling evolution 'evolutionism' is a specious rhetorical tactic, since it suggests that evolution is an ideology; calling evolution 'Darwinism' is specious in spades, since it suggests that evolution is not only an ideology but an ideology that stands or falls with Darwin’s particular formulation of it, and with Darwin’s personal reputation.

"By calling evolution 'Darwinism,' creationists are hoping to plant the idea that evolution is the outmoded and dismissible brainchild of a Victorian amateur, rather than the robust product of a century-and-a-half of dogged scientific inquiry. In the same vein, Darwin is compared to Freud and Marx, all supposedly purveyors of discredited ideologies that deserve to be abandoned; a t-shirt peddled by an intelligent design creationist organization quotes Phillip Johnson, the godfather of intelligent design creationism, as saying, 'Freud is dead, Marx is dead, and Darwin isn’t feeling very well' (ARN 2005).

"So the rhetoric of 'Darwinism' dovetails with the longstanding creationist campaign of vilification of Darwin. When 'The Simpsons' caricatured creationism with a video featuring Darwin in a hot embrace with Satan, it was only a slight exaggeration.

"Similarly, in creationist rhetoric, 'Darwinism' is used as an epithet to link evolution to objectionable political ideologies. CSC Communications Director Rob Crowther described a group of anticreationist scientists as a 'Darwinian politburo' (Crowther 2008). At a conference, Discovery Institute Senior Fellow George Gilder reportedly referred to 'Darwinist storm troopers' (Cohen 2007), while intelligent design blogger Denyse O’Leary rails against 'Darwinian brownshirts' (O’Leary 2007)—the brownshirts, of course, were the stormtroopers of the Nazi Sturmabteilung. On his personal blog, prominent intelligent design creationism promoter (and CSC Senior Fellow) William Dembski complains of 'Darwinian fascists' (later revised, if not noticeably softened, to 'Darwinian enforcers') (Dembski 2006). The linking of evolution with ideologies such as Nazism and Stalinism is clearly intended to encourage the view that evolution is not science, but a dangerous ideology in its own right.

"Since the fear that evolution is a threat to religion is at the bottom of creationism, it is not surprising to find that 'Darwinism' is also used to couple evolution with atheism, which creationists, practically by definition, deplore. In his book asking 'What is Darwinism?,' Princeton Theological Seminary professor Charles Hodge answered the titular question by concluding, 'It is atheism' (Hodge 1874: 177). Almost 120 years later, the godfather of intelligent design creationism, Phillip Johnson, expressed much the same view, asking, 'What is Darwinism?' and answering, 'It is a necessary implication of a philosophical doctrine called scientific naturalism, which is based on the a priori assumption that God was always absent from the realm of nature. As such evolution in the Darwinian sense is inherently antithetical to theism . . . . ' (Johnson 1993: 189).

"In summary, then, 'Darwinism' is an ambiguous term that impairs communication even about Darwin’s own ideas. It fails to convey the full panoply of modern evolutionary biology accurately, and it fosters the inaccurate perception that the field stagnated for 150 years after Darwin’s day.

"Moreover, creationists use 'Darwinism' to frame evolutionary biology as an '-ism' or ideology, and the public understanding of evolution and science suffers as a result. True, in science, we do not shape our research because of what creationists claim about our subject matter. But when we are in the classroom or otherwise dealing with the public understanding of science, it is entirely appropriate to consider whether what we say may be misunderstood. We cannot expect to change preconceptions if we are not willing to avoid exacerbating them. A first step is eschewing the careless use of 'Darwinism.'

" . . . [A]long with the increase in coverage of Darwin’s life and work, readers of this journal can . . . expect a surge in anti-evolutionism, as creationists use the increased exposure to evolution as a 'hook' for their own ideas. If ever there was a teachable moment for increasing the understanding of evolutionary biology, it will be 2009. Teachers and scientists ought to take the opportunity to think about how better to present the ideas of evolutionary biology, which has grown and flourished from the seeds planted by a remarkable and brilliant nineteenth-century scientist."

("Overcoming Obstacles to Evolution Education: Don't Call It 'Darwinism,'" by Eugenie C. Scott and Glenn Branch, at: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12052-008-0111-2/fulltext.html; for further recommended reading, see: "Brilliant Blunders and the Genuises Who Made Them from Darwin to Einstein: Colossal Mistakes by Great Scientists that Changed Our Understanding of Life and the Universe," by Mario Livio [2013, Simon and Schuster, 340 pp])


It bears noting at this point that theists like yourseslf prefer that atheists process like theists do; namely, in terms and context of "belief." Theists are big into "belief"-thinking (a true oxymoron) and seek to control the court by telling atheists that they (atheists) "believe" in their own "religion" of atheism. Religious processing of ideas through the use of "belief" language is the only kind of lingo that theists really know and feel comfortable with. It is a familiar, thumb-sucking Linus-like blanket to them.

http://possil.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/linus-blanket.gif


Therefore, it not only makes theists feel angry, it makes them feel uneasy and vulnerable when they are confronted with non-believers who don't buy into the believer's game of thought control through theistic terminology control. Deep down, theists may well realize that thinking is more grounded than believing. (For evidence of that, one need look no further than the futile and dishonest attempts by anti-science creationists to gain credibility in the real world by wrapping their other-worldly religious beliefs in the trappings of pseudo-scientific language).

Despite your protestations to the contrary, atheists scare the hell out of theists. Otherwise, you wouldn't keep scaring up under-the-bed boogymen which you vainly then seek to hurl against the pillars of mainstream evolutionary science that make you tremble--and that also make you look silly.
____


Now, back to Eugenie Scott, whom I know.

She is director of the National Center for Science Education, based in San Diego, California. We first met a few years ago over a B&B breakfast at a national convention for the Freedom from Religion Foundation where we were both program speakers. During the course of friendly conversation, she mentioned that she was taking a group of scientists and interested laypersons on a river-rafting trip through the Grand Canyon. I had always wanted to go on such an expedition so I notified my regular group of hiking friends (all scientists themselves) with whom I take annual excursions into the national parklands and wilderness areas of West. We decided to put it on our to-do list and soon thereafter found ourselves on a nine-day white-water/calm-eddy river raft of the Colorado River in the company of a group of various science professionals (including geneticists, biologists, anthropologists and physicists).

It was an amazing and educating experience, with Eugenie at the helm. She's a critical thinker who uses language much more preciesly than theists do. Those, like her, in the professional scientific community who understand the importance of word-meaning don't "believe" in evolution any more than they "believe" in god. Rather, they "accept" evolution as fact.

During the course of the 200 mile-plus trip that wound its way through the Grand Canyon, we camped out at night on the Colorado's sandbars and during the day--launching from a point in the Grand Canyon where the rocks, sediments and fossils were the oldest--steadily made our way along the river, examining the observable evidence for the long-term evolution of the Canyon. What was particularly interesting was to have compare-and-contrast presentations made by scientists along the way regarding the real-science evolutionary vs. the pseudo-science creationary explanations for how the Grand Canyon physically came to be.

Eugenie has made it a point, then and since, that when educating supporters of evolution on how to deal with an remarkably uninformed and illiterate public, it is very important to "watch your language," so to speak. In efforts to defend and explain the realities of evolution to novices and (in particular) to anti-science religious believer types, language is a critically important tactical device for use in the delivery of facts.

Below is the text of an interview with her on the importance of using words, language and terminology precisely and meaningfully:

"Watch your language! It’s a common message from Eugenie Scott, a physical anthropologist and director of the National Center for Science Education (www.ncseweb.org), an organization dedicated to promoting and defending the teaching of evolution in public schools. Scott recently spoke with Science News writer Susan Milius.

"[Question to Scott]: 'So you urge scientists not to say that they 'believe' in evolution?!'

"[Scott's answer]: 'Right. What your audience hears is more important than what you say. . . .What [people] hear is that evolution is a belief, it’s an opinion, it’s not well-substantiated science. And that is something that scientists need to avoid communicating.

"'You believe in God. You believe your sports team is going to win. But you don’t believe in cell division. You don’t believe in thermodynamics. Instead, you might say you 'accept evolution.'

"Q: 'How does the language used to discuss new discoveries add to the problem?'

"Scott: 'To put it mildly, it doesn’t help when evolutionary biologists say things like, “This completely revolutionizes our view of X.” Because hardly anything we come up with is going to completely revolutionize our view of the core ideas of science. . . . An insight into the early ape-men of East and South Africa is not going to completely change our understanding of Neandertals, for example. So the statement is just wrong. Worse, it’s miseducating the public as to the soundness of our understanding of evolution.

"'You can say that this fossil or this new bit of data 'sheds new light on this part of evolution.'

"Q: 'So people get confused when scientists discover things and change ideas?'

"Scott: 'Yes, all the time. This is one of the real confusions about evolution. Creationists have done a splendid job of convincing the public that evolution is weak science because scientists are always changing their minds about things.'

"Q: 'So how do you explain what science is?'

"Scott: 'An idea that I stole from [physicist] James Trefil visualizes the content of science as three concentric circles: the core ideas in the center, the frontier ideas in the next ring out and the fringe ideas in the outermost ring. . . .

"'[We need to] help the public understand that the nature of scientific explanations is to change with new information or new theory — this is a strength of science — but that science is still reliable. And the core ideas of science do not change much, if at all.

"'The core idea of evolution is common ancestry, and we’re not likely to change our minds about that. But we argue a lot about … how the tree of life is branched and what mechanisms bring evolutionary change about. That’s the frontier area of science.

"'And then of course you have areas that claim to be science, like "creation science" and "intelligent design,” that are off in the fringe. Scientists don’t spend much time here because the ideas haven’t proven useful in understanding the natural world.

"Q: 'You’ve been on talk radio a lot. What’s your sense of what the public understands about evolutionary biology?'

"Scott: 'The public has a very poor understanding of evolution. People don’t recognize evolution as referring to the common ancestry of living things. Even those who accept evolution often don’t understand it well. They think it’s a great chain . . . of gradual increases in complexity of forms through time, which is certainly an impoverished view of evolutionary biology. That view is the source, in my opinion, of: “If man evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?” ... That’s probably the second most common question I get on talk radio.

"'It’s like saying, "If you evolved from your cousins, why are your cousins still here?" And of course the answer is, well, in fact, I didn’t evolve from my cousins. My cousins and I shared common ancestors, in our grandparents.'

"Q: 'What’s the current state of the effort to keep schools teaching evolution?'

"Scott: 'Sometimes it feels like the Red Queen around here, where we’re running as hard as we can to stay in the same place. The thing is, creationism evolves. And for every victory we have, there’s pressure on the creationists to change their approach. We constantly have to shift our response. Ultimately the solution to this problem is not going to come from pouring more science on it."

"Q: 'What should scientists and people who care about science do?'

"Scott: 'I’m calling on scientists to be citizens. American education is decentralized. Which means it’s politicized. To make a change . . . you have to be a citizen who pays attention to local elections and votes [for] the right people. You can’t just sit back and expect that the magnificence of science will reveal itself and everybody will . . . accept the science."

(Eugenie Scott, "Accept It: Talk about Evolution Needs to Evolve," in "Science News: Magazine for the Society for Science and the Public," vol. 176, #3, 1 August 2009, p. 32, at: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/45594/title/Comment__Accept_it_Talk_about_evolution_needs_to_evolve; for a related thread, see: "Why I hate the phrase 'I don't believe in god.'" posted by "kolobian," on "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board, 5 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357373)

**********


Although you apparently fancy yourself as some kind of expert on the philosophy of science, you have been properly called out on your anti-Darwin kick before.

As one RfM respondent noted back in May of this year:

"katuwiran,

"In a previous post you mentioned that 'Darwinism is some kind of bad religion. When you read evolution literature always keep in mind that you're reading half science and half theology. That's how they're written ever since the days of Charles Darwin.'

"I would like to point out that DNA was not discovered until much later than Charles Darwin and his theory of evolution. If you read what Charles Darwin wrote you will find that he was very wrong on many points. For example, he thought that whales evolved from from a type of bear which is now known to be false. Despite its errors though, it is probably the theory that has made the most predictions that have turned out to be true.

"If you really want to liken Darwinism to a religion then it is like a religion that got the general order of the creation right. Plus, it predicted the existence of as yet undiscovered hereditary molecules. How many religions have done that? Darwinism, if a religion, would have to rate as the best religion in the world, and Darwin the best prophet that ever lived.

"Anyhoo, the debate on Darwinism was resolved back in Darwin's day. It is only because of religious types that refuse to accept the facts that it is still debated today."

("Re: katuwiran - this was on the Dawkin's Foundation page today," posted by "Green Potato," on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 20 May 2013, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,900607,901152#msg-901152)


You don't have to be scared of Eugenie Scott, "katuwiran," or of evolutionary science. But you are stuck in the language of religion because you obviously don't know how else to communicate your ideas. Instead of lashing out theistically, try thinking rationally. It's more reliable and would make you look less nutty and uneducated.

In the meantime, it's obvious that can dish it but that you certainly can't take it. You mindlessly spew your raving diatribes against Darwin in ways that are uninformed to their core with regard to how Darwin's contributions to the understanding of evolution are actually regarded within the global scientific community.

Then you completely twist what Scott was saying in an astoundingly superficial way that would make even a grade schooler blush. (That last observation is a direct response to your condescending admonition to those who disagree with you: "Darwinism isn't science. It is religion. Wake up boys and girls").

To cap it off, you then have the utter audacity to whine about "vitriol"?

Hypocrite.

By the way, I spoke recently with an internationally-respected physicist who, after hearing me recite to him your ludicrous "arguments," replied that what you have claimed "makes no sense." He noted (as anyone would who credibly knows Darwin's proper place in the history of science) that while Darwin didn't understand DNA or genetics and, in fact, got some particulars fundamentally wrong in his evolutionary theorizing, what he did get wrong related to matters that had not yet been discovered. (Well, duh).

This scientist also observed that Darwin's lasting legacy was his establishment of the foundation of evolutionary science as pertaining to the processes of natural selection--a bedrock that has not only withstood the test of time, but has been empirically validated in critical respects. To insist, as you foolishly do, that the scientific world is abandoning Darwin is absurd, false and ignorant. Just what is the so-called "genuine science" that you supposedly are in possession of that the supposedly deceived elements of the scientific community just don't seem to get?

As my scientist friend summed up, I can point these facts out to you, but "it probably won't do any good." He observed that you haven't expressed "a single original idea"--and what you have parroted is obviously "borrowed from the creationists."

Double duh.
_____


To summarize, your skull is clearly beyond penetration by mainstream scientific evidence that demonstrably underscores Darwin's historic and legitimate contributions to the discipline of evolutionary science.

I would therefore respectfully suggest that you take your bawl and go home.

You're both out of your league and stuck in the wrong century.



Edited 24 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 12:45PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 05:32AM

I haven't joined in because you've done a better job than I could do, Steve (and others) but I agree with you wholeheartedly.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 05:35AM


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Posted by: druid ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 01:42PM

Yeah, what he said.....Seriously, Thank you Steve.

I last spoke to Ms. Scott after a science convention where she was a key speaker on legal battles surrounding science education and creationist attempts to insert religion into the classroom.

Concerning a long running battle in our small town between the high status old local Md who was preaching creationism to his patients vs. myself the token exmoe godless heathen evolution science teacher ,she said something to the effect of -

"Remember medical doctors are dispensers of technology not evolutionary biologists. Many Doctor's last general bio class that would have dealt with evolution was often as a freshman then it was chemistry and other anatomy classes not dealing with evolution. A lot of PhDs who are held up as guiding lights supporting creationism are out of their field and have little background. You are more the expert than he …as is anyone who reads and studies evolution !! "

Dispensers of technology not evolutionary biologists… worth remembering.

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Posted by: ScaryGod ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 05:17AM

"Atheism doesn't scare me."

It's not supposed to. That's God's job. Only those brave enough to think deeper than their bathwater get to emancipate themselves from the monsters under the bed.

Happy believing. And whatever you do, don't look under the bed. Spooky monsters under there.

Boo!

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 11:38AM

Such aggressively determined ignorance about evolutionary biology is a wonder to behold. And not in a good way.

Darwin got some things dead wrong. So? Isaac Newton got almost everything wrong about chemistry (he was a believer in alchemy), and he even got a few things wrong about calculus. He is still credited as the cofounder, along with Leibniz, of one of the most important developments in human history. Calculus made the Industrial Revolution possible.

Scientists can be dogmatic. They can also be wrong. Happens all the time. However, the amount of evidence underpinning the field of evolutionary biology is so enormous, that to try and describe it as about to collapse under its false assumptions is just comical.

We had someone on RfM last winter as I recall who was this aggressively ignorant about science. I am left to wonder if this is a case of resurrection (he's baaaaack!) or reincarnation.

Oy vey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 11:39AM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 11:48AM

Yep. Katuwiran makes these drive bys a couple times a year. There was a couple of these anti-science dorks on a rampage about the time you're thinking of, and they seem to magnetically attract each other.

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Posted by: stormbow ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 05:34PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> We had someone on RfM last winter as I recall who
> was this aggressively ignorant about science. I
> am left to wonder if this is a case of
> resurrection (he's baaaaack!) or reincarnation.
>
> Oy vey.

You left out parallel (de)evolution :)

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Posted by: charles, not logged in ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 12:23PM

After being soundly and roundly lambasted in the first post with not only facts but also a personal witness testimony c/o Steve, katuwiran sidesteps any and all replies, gripes about the non-deletion of his/her/its comments, and snipes at the peripherals and non-essentials. Afterwards, not being satisfied with his/her/its ideological, philosophical and scientific black eye, s/he/it rears its head once again and posts yet more wanna-be science blather.


Isaythisinthenameofscience, Amen!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 08:39PM by Susan I/S.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 02:26PM

Thanks for this:

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-great-debate-what-is-life/what-is-life-panel

Quite enjoyed it.

Among other things, it was interesting watching Krauss state what he sees as "part of the problem" with Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics. Krauss states that part of the problem with the Three Laws is "the assumption that doing away with humans is a bad thing, and -uh- it's not at all clear to me that it is a bad thing, in the long run..."

There is no scientific way to put a foundation under the idea that the existence and continued existence of human life is a good thing, but there are excellent attempts to do so in Philosophy. Unfortunately, Krauss hasn't much use for philosophy:

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.ca/2012/04/lawrence-krauss-another-physicist-with.html

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 02:30PM

. . . including Darwin's profoundly important contributions to the understanding of the scientific realities of natural selection and common descent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 02:31PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 02:44PM

There's no good reason to be an atheist except that there is no evidence for the existence or a god or gods..

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Posted by: iflewover ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 02:50PM

Thanks Steve. You are tireless!

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 04:20PM

... and never get my feet wet.

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 03:30PM

So what if the pre-conceived tree of life model turns out to be a lot of bushes instead? Evolution’s “boat” is still a proven fact. You and I are evolving right now as we breathe and those changes will be passed along to our offspring along with the trillions of other living things on planet Earth.


Here is what I believe.

Atheists are the individuals who have moved beyond their personal fears that “Gods” as men describe them, simply and factually do not exist. It's that simple.

That to me is the primary difference between religionists and Atheists.


“Atheism doesn't scare me. There are no good intellectual reasons to be one. And it's fun watching their boats sink.”

You sir are very much afraid that your God does not exist and your post shows it in spades.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 08:05PM

You're irrelevant. You know that, right?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 08:08PM

"Science should be taught not in order to support religion and not in order to destroy religion. Science should be taught simply ignoring religion."

-- Steven Weinberg, 1979 Nobel laureate, physics



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 08:10PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 11:23PM


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Posted by: richardthebad (not logged in) ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 08:45PM

As I wrote to another young earther earlier today, Kat wouldn't recognize a scientific concept if it slapped him on the ass and called him Sally.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 11:25PM

God I hate flies.

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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 03:13AM

Steve, what is the core idea of Eugenie Scott's Darwinism? It's there in your very own post, unless you don't read your own references. Now she may not like the term Darwinism applied to her beliefs, but the term works fine with her fellow Darwinists.

The core idea of her Darwinian belief system is "common ancestry".

If common ancestry is false, then the core idea of her beliefs is false.

If common ancestry is not factual, then the core idea of her beliefs is non-factual.

So is common ancestry factual? Is it something scientists can accept as objectively demonstrable?

If you bothered to read the references I gave, you would know that the tree of life by which Skipper Scott's ship was fashioned from is already being politely buried by scientists.

"Charles Darwin's tree of life is 'wrong and misleading', claim scientists"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/4312355/Charles-Darwins-tree-of-life-is-wrong-and-misleading-claim-scientists.html

Apostle Richard "World 's Top Tinkerbell" Dawkins got the shock of his life when J Craig Venter expressly made sure the audience understood he was not a tree-of-lifer like Elder Dawkins during the ASU Origin of Life Symposium.

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-great-debate-what-is-life/what-is-life-panel

Tree-of-Lifers in that symposium held to the core dogma of Darwinism that all life on earth is just one form. Any entity that has life is related to each other.  So Venter citing his work on the Mycoplasma explained something about genetic encoding  that Dawkins thought was so but just ain't so.

If a tree-of-lifer were to be dropped in a tub filled with a solution of pH 12, it would dissolve his skin.  But the Mycoplasma will swim in it like any happy bacteria in a septic tank.  When Venter uses  the word dissolve, it does not mean decompose.  A Mycoplasma encodes its genes differently than a human being.  This is why, no matter how small it is, it won't be harmed by a pH 12 solution.

Given this demonstrable scientific fact, Venter can affirm that Skipper Scott's tree of life  is nothing but "an artifact that doesn't really hold up."

So we do have scientists rejecting this tree of life nonsense.

The lame excuse offered to counter this is... "Yes, Darwin got a lot right--and a lot wrong. But not to worry; that is, if one knows how the self-correcting processes of science work (which you obviously don't)"

Self-correcting is probably not something Skipper Scott is going to do.  Dontcha remember what she said about core beliefs?

"... And the core ideas of science do not change much, if at all

"'The core idea of evolution is common ancestry, and we’re not likely to change our minds about that."

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 06:48AM

. . . an historic and undeniable role in establishing that demonstrable reality; that creationists in wolves clothing (like you) are deliberately misrepresenting Darwin's contribution to the recognition and acceptance of the bedrock science of evolutionary biology; and that you and your ilk know nothing about real science.

I have quoted Scott at length (something which you refused to do and which your are clunkily, incompetently and deliberately twisting). You seem pathologically incapable of absorbing what you are supposedly reading and are robotically cherry-picking your way through the data in a manner that evidences a profound cognitive disconnect, combined with your obvious anti-science agenda.

Speaking of trees, trying to discuss matters of science with you is like attempting to communicate with a dead stump. (I would recommend that you read Kenneth Miller's "Finding Darwin's God" and "Only a Theory" but you clearly don't know how to process scientific information).

My physicist friend was absolutely correct in his assessment of you:

You are beyond help, impervious to fact and reason; deeply uninformed when it comes to a working knowledge of evolutionary science; devoid of original ideas; a shameless parroter of discredited religion-based quacked-out creationism; and fundamentally dishonest.

In short, you have proven yourself to be completely irrelevant to this debate. And I mean completely.



Edited 20 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 03:46PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 04:10AM

Once again you show yourself to be unable to comprehend what you are reading. Let me break it down to you since you seem to think that the "tree of life" was a literal tree that Darwin believed in that is now debunked by creationist scientists. Let's start with a quote from the article you linked:

'Dr Bapteste said: "The tree of life was useful. It helped us to understand evolution was real. But now we know more about evolution it's time to move on." '

The "tree of life" was always merely a mental picture, a peadogic tool, to get a grasp of something that is difficult to imagine: the messy way all living things are related to each-other. To abandon "the tree of life" is akin to abandon the traditional way to draw an atom. Electrons do not at all revolve around the nucleus the way that picture leads you to believe. So in determining the movement of an electron, aswell as understanding the evolution of many organisms, microbes in particular, these mental pictures do not work.

And btw, atheists are not scared of you either.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 09:30AM

Evolutionary scientists have for years acknowledged that development of life from a common ancestor has taken less of a linear "tree" direction and more of a "bush" one.

That realization, however, has not obviated the fundamental fact that Darwin was absolutely correct about the role played by of natural selection via a pathway of common descent in the evolution of life on this planet.

"kat" is clearly ignorant of both the broad debate and its general conclusions as they have taken shape over the decades in wide scientific circles. Put more bluntly, "kat' is in way over his/her head and it shows.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 03:07PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: quinlansolo ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 08:44AM

"Darwin's model is no stranger to controversy. It has played a key role in the much larger debate with creationists who are convinced life on Earth is so complex it could only have come about from intelligent design – in other words, the hand of God."

I have no respect for Religion, especially "the intelligent Design" supposed to create me?
Man, talk about an awful choice.
Katuwiran you can Mahankari all day long......

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 08:51AM

. . . that this "God" has hands.

Evidence, please.

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Posted by: crom ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 02:24PM

Katuwiran: I believe this ship is sinking, because my religion says so.

Everyone Else: If you look at the evidence, we're floating higher than ever above the draft mark.

Katuwiran: You have a false God and religion.

Everyone Else: WTF are you talking about?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 02:45PM by crom.

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Posted by: katuwiran ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 11:29PM

Dr Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, said: "For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life. We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/4312355/Charles-Darwins-tree-of-life-is-wrong-and-misleading-claim-scientists.html

That's right. NO evidence. NADA. And Dr. Bapteste, is he a creationist?

Of course in the Darwinian religion, nothing can still mean something. No evidence? No problem. That's a creationist's problem.

That Darwinism has no evidence is proof that Darwinism is true. Otherwise, it will no longer be the only true religion. It will be... science.

And scientists who are skeptical of Darwinism are ipso facto... creationists.

So much for the idea of dissent being heroic. One cannot be skeptical of the skeptics.

Steve maybe right. The "Tree of Life" was probably just a "Bush of Life". Or perhaps a "Shrub of Life".

Or maybe even a "Weed of Life".

But man, oh maaan... where did you get that weed? That's purty strong stuff you got there, I tell ya.

Skipper Scott probably inhaled one too much. Instead of abandoning the weed, she'd rather abandon the term. She ain't gonna change her mind about core ideas, even while she praises the virtue of self-correction.

"No core, no problem. I'm OK, you're OK. It's all about feelings from now on. And self-esteem. And watching your language."

"The facts be damned! That grass is just sooo good...yeah!"

Their tree-of-life ship named "Common Ancestry" got kaboomed by the Cambrian Explosion. Afterwards, it got gobbled by a horde of Mycoplasmas. And everyone riding that ship of fools, who inhaled the weed of life... they all feel good. They're all watching their language. And seeing stars... and fishes... and star fishes.

Dr Dupré said: "It's part of a revolutionary change in biology. Our standard model of evolution is under enormous pressure."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/4312355/Charles-Darwins-tree-of-life-is-wrong-and-misleading-claim-scientists.html

"PRESSURE! Pushing down on me, pushing down on you..." sings Freddie the Queen.

Meanwhile all Skipper Scott can say is... "Watch your language!"

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Posted by: GenY ( )
Date: July 17, 2013 01:30AM

Why all the expenditure of time, energy, and brain power on giving katuwiran the time of day by responding to his/her posts after it being evident that he/she is posting only to bait?

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