I have been inactive for about 3 years now. Last night someone I work with sat me down to talk about religion and to tell me all the reasons why the Mormon Church is the only true one, and that to get into heaven we must say that JS was a true prophet, and that it isn't good enough to believe and worship Christ if we deny JS. It seems like they've made JS a God and I don't like it.

I have read many "anti" Mormon books and just can't make myself believe in JS or BY because of things they did. This coworker explained that many of those early church documents were forged to make JS look bad. How am I supposed to know who is telling the truth?

Why isn't it enough for me to believe in Christ? If I'm not Mormon then should I just give up on trying to be a good person and Christian?

When I tell Mormons that I don't believe but am still Christian, they dismiss it as if I couldn't really be Christian without being a Mormon. One person told me,"Well you are halfway there by being Christian."

It angers me that people can dismiss what I feel in my heart. But it angers me more that I accept what they say - that God truly is unhappy with me because I left "His Church."

This person told me that other churches don't have the authority and that JC only directs the Mormon Church, and that when they say they feel the spirit, it really isn't the true spirit.

I feel so lost.

Ask yourself this question-
Why would a faithful, record-keeping people write lies in their journals, newspapers and falsely record the words of their prophets to make their church look bad?

The majority of reliable material that documents the church is from official publications and from faithful records kept by true believers who preserved as much as they could for their posterity.

If you believe in Christ, read the gospel of John. It will clear up the confusion of who Christ is and why the Mormon church claims are false and contradictory to the actual teachings of Christ. My friend once told me when I was still Mormon, "Jesus plus nothing equals everything". I wanted to still have faith and that helped me open my eyes to why I didn't need Mormonism. His grace is sufficient. He is enough and all I need.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 01:12PM by Suckafoo.

JoD 3:360 is dead on-Who does this person think forged all the volumes of the JoD or History of the Church volumes then distributed them? You don't have to leave LDS sources to find something damning about the beliefs.

I'm not familiar with the JoD or the History of the Church volumes. Have some of them been rewritten? Would I need to look at the earlier versions? Where do I find these?

Also, any other official church documents that I could read that would help?

Thanks for the replies.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/
Never re-written as far as I know.
Uncle Dale has a document fiesta somewhere that you will not believe.
Uncle Dale? Where have you been?
Also, to top on the RPackham website-that man is a treasure of knowledge that you don't need a rock in a hat to find.

okay - so Mormons actually currently believe the JoD? Do they just ignore the parts they don't like? Sounds typical.

Well it's never been officially denouced as doctrine, but tscc likes to keep it in the background and will say it's "not official doctrine" if issues come up with it from somewhere. That being said, it IS pretty much a collection of sermons from past presidents and church leaders.

Anyone who sits you down at work for a religion lecture is out of line.

"Sorry, but religion to me is a private matter not to be broached at work."

Then change the subject or stand up and walk away.

Also a bad idea to discuss personal sex practices and politics at work.

You were being abused by an abusive person who was taught these tactics by an abusive church. This person may seem nice, but this was not a nice person. Let’s put it in a different context:

Let’s say the church is an abusive spouse you’ve been trying to leave for years, but you just can’t seem to cut the final ties, because part of you still loves him. He doesn’t give a damn about you, but he likes the fact that you earn all the money while he sits at home watching re-runs of Gunsmoke.

So, you sit down to have a serious talk with him. He tells you that you have a wonderful marriage. He reminds you of the fact that he once saved your life 20 years ago, and he would do it again, and therefore he’s great.

You ask him about rumors you’ve heard around town about him. He says people are out to get him, so they make up lies about him. That’s just how special he is.

Then you say you want to be with someone you can truly love with all your heart. He says, “But there’s no better person out there than me. “ All other men out there are half the man he is. He’s just such a great, beautiful, wonderful man. There's no happiness outside your relationship with him.

After he explains this to you, he unmutes Gunsmoke, smiles at you and says, "Could you be quiet now? This is my favorite episode."

What would you tell that woman if she’s brave enough to confide in you about her confusion?

So I’m going to tell you: You’re in an abusive cycle with the LDS Church. They have you wrapped around their fingers, and if you could just step back and contextualize this relationship for what it REALLY is, I think you’ll have the power to do what you need to do.

The forgery this person was referring to was the court documents that say that JS was a money digger.

blindednomore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The forgery this person was referring to was the
> court documents that say that JS was a money
> digger.

Even FAIR, the Mormon apologist group agrees that these court documents are probably authentic. Per their website:

"It was easy to cast doubt on the reality of the 1826 trial until the bills from Judge Albert Neely and Constable Philip De Zeng were found in 1971. These documents were removed from their purported site of discovery by Dr. Wesley Walters, a well-known anti-Mormon author.
Walters wrote, "Because the two 1826 bills had not only suffered from dampness, but had severe water damage as well, Mr. Poffarl hand-carried the documents to the Yale University's Beinecke Library, which has one of the best document preservation centers in the country."[8] The problem with this action is, once you have removed a document from a historical setting and then try to restore it to the same setting, you can't prove that you have not altered the document.
The actions of Walters and Poffarl compromised the documents. By having the documents removed and only returned under threat of a lawsuit by the County, it opened the possibility that they could be forged documents. They are generally considered to be authentic."

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Legal_trials/1826_glasslooking_trial

Ask these people to give specifics about which early church documents were forged, why they were forged, by whom - and how one can tell that they were forged. Also ask them to give specifics about how one can tell that other documents were not forged.

I suggest your up more on the truth claims of the BoM and BoA you'll realize it's not just that JS & BY were terrible people. JS was a known con-artist. His translations were fabrications that he plagiarized. BY made up stupid doctrine also, but he was a terrible person.

Study MormonThink.com

Their church is make believe just nod your head until he goes away. If he wants to give 10% of his income to a lying organization then let him.

If God was just he wouldn't care what church you belong to, just that the you lived a good life based on your conscience.

How would you feel if a scientologist sat you down and talked about the "lies and forgeries" told about L. Ron Hubbard and how Scientology has the "only truth". Granted, it's not based in Christianity, but you get my drift; any cult will have a human at its head and will confer on them nearly divine/perfect/enlightened status.

> This coworker explained that many
> of those early church documents were forged to
> make JS look bad.

First, this coworker pulled it of his/her butt that "early church documents were forged." Is he talking about the Mark Hoffman documents? Those are the only one's that have been forged and "anti-Mormon" books don't use those as their sources.
Most of the early LDS historical documents which "anti-Mormons" cite ARE bona fide, legitimate sources. Even LDS historians and apologists will say they are. Its only the interpretation (spin) which the LDS historians and apologists will differ on.

> How am I supposed to know who is telling the truth?

You do that by using your brain and taking advantage of critical thinking skills. Cults don't want you to use your brain. They just want you to believe what they tell you.

Like I said above, most of the sources used by the anti-Mormons ARE legitimate sources. Most LDS historians and apologists will confirm they are real and credible. You just need to read both critical sources AND apologetic sources. See what they BOTH say, then use your own brain and come to your OWN conclusions.

> Why isn't it enough for me to believe in Christ?
> If I'm not Mormon then should I just give up on
> trying to be a good person and Christian?

Why do you place so much emphasis on what others think? Why don't you have enough confidence in your own beliefs? Believe in what makes most sense to YOU not what OTHERS want. If the LDS church is not God's true church, then don't worry about what their followers claim. Just tell them you don't believe in it and that you have a different religious beliefs.

> When I tell Mormons that I don't believe but am
> still Christian, they dismiss it as if I couldn't
> really be Christian without being a Mormon. One
> person told me,"Well you are halfway there by
> being Christian."

Is God so superficial, that he only cares about people belonging to an organization?

> It angers me that people can dismiss what I feel
> in my heart. But it angers me more that I accept
> what they say - that God truly is unhappy with me
> because I left "His Church."

Don't. These people are brainwashed members of a cult. They can't think outside of the box.

> This person told me that other churches don't have
> the authority and that JC only directs the Mormon
> Church, and that when they say they feel the
> spirit, it really isn't the true spirit.

Well, he's wrong. The LDS church is not what it claims to be.

> I feel so lost.

Like I said above, you are worrying too much about what OTHER people believe and don't trust enough in your feelings and beliefs. Look, all God cares about is if you are a GOOD PERSON. There a million different religions, churches, sects, denominations, self proclaimed prophets, and so on. You don't have to believe all or any of them. Just go with what makes sense to YOU. If it doesn't feel right or it doesn't make sense, then there's probably something not right about it. Why would God want people so confused? He gave you a brain and a conscience and I figure he would want you to use them and not to simply trust what other people tell you.

Thank you. That is what my spouse keeps telling me and I need to listen. I really didn't think I cared so much what others believed about me - but I just don't think I've truly broken the ties with the cult yet.

You mentioned that you have read "anti-Mormon" books before, yet you don't sound so convinced by them. I am not sure you have read the best ones out there.

I suggest studying the following websites. They are very good. If you do, I think you will confidently realize that the LDS church is not what it claims it is.

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.utlm.org/

Why are we supposed to follow unquestioningly what one guy who died years ago said he saw?

If it were that important which religion, if any, people should belong to, wouldn't any compassionate sane diety tell you in person? If he/she hasn't done so, then why wouldn't you be allowed to worship, or not worship, in a way that made sense to you?

Why is humanity condemned or saved on one man's say so? And if so, why shouldn't I believe Muhammed, as opposed t o JOseph Smith? Or luther? Or Calvin for that matter?

Since when does this guy get to decide just what spirit is the 'true spirit'? absolutely no one on earth has the authority of right or ability to invalidate YOUR personal spiritual experiences. What a presumptuous ass. You might want to remind him that he belongs to a church that (theoretically) teaches the principle of personal revelation. Tell him your direct connection to God is good enough for you, and that you're going to follow the dictates of your own conscience, thanks.

oh thank you. I also don't believe that anyone has the right.

I don't think you need to be scared but rather concerned. It took me a long time to realize that the church's stressing of J.S. being a prophet is so that it can convince you that the leaders they have now are also prophets. Without the absolute belief that these men are prophets it is very difficult to make sense out of the contradictions that come out of Mormon doctrine. Today's leaders (they are just men) of the church are changing doctrine and directives at their own desire which conflicts with past doctrine.

I knew that I had found the truth about Joseph Smith's behavior when I found a book that had copies of the actual hand written journals of Joseph Smith's plural wives. I saw photostatic copies of letters written by early general authorities that questioned J.S.'s morality and behavior. I fully understand your desire to know that your sources are valid. I made certain that mine were and I was astonished to learn what J.S.'s true character was and how much of what the church relayed to members was false.

Ask yourself why any organization would restrict your search for truth and knowledge to only sources of their own making. If you wanted to know if an investment opportunity was legitimate would you trust only the people promoting it or would you look outside the company to learn more? You are making a rather large investment in Mormonism with your membership. It is worth the time and effort to find out if J.S. was what he said he was or if he was something else.

You might also ask yourself why a loving god would make it so difficult to know his will and follow him. Jesus said that we were to love him and love one another. That is a very simple directive that does not require intervention from others. If Jesus was who he said he was and your heart is with him he will know it and will not require others to tell him.

Good luck with your search for truth. I wish you well.

"Jesus said that we were to love him and love one another. That is a very simple directive that does not require intervention from others. If Jesus was who he said he was and your heart is with him he will know it and will not require others to tell him."


Cali Sally, I'm in tears right now. Thank you so much. The funny thing is that my coworker spent most of the time trying to convince me of the truth of the "line of prophets" so that I had to believe in the current one, no matter what he said. He also mentioned, "If you want your car fixed go to a mechanic." Meaning that I shouldn't look outside of the Church.

Can you tell me please where you found this book with hand written accounts? I want desperately to read it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 03:50PM by blindednomore.

CS was probably referring to "In Sacred Lonliness" by Todd Compton. Also check out

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

And some mechanics don't even know what they are doing and some are even dishonest.

That's why we don't just have faith in the first mechanic we go to. And if something they say or do doesn't seem right, we SHOULD question them.

When I first began to question the morg and its authenticity, the thought occurred to me that just about every religious person on this earth, no matter what their religion, believed their religion was/is true and that their God or deity is the one and only true God. How many religions are there on this planet and how many different Gods and/or deities are worshipped?

Not every one can be right but that does not mean that all of them are wrong, either. It just means that what is right for one person or group of persons to worship is not necessarily right for another person or group of persons.

The real joy here is that you get to choose what rings true for you.

That guy at work? He was completely out of line. Your religion or lack thereof is absolutely none of his business.

Here's a link to Uncle Dale's site:


http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2006/09/uncle-dales-old-mormon-articles.html

I enjoyed reading some of the old newspaper articles collected there. You'll have to search around a bit for what you're most interested in, but there are some eye opening eye witness accounts from the 19th century.


I also love Grant Palmer's work. Look him up on mormonthink, he has his own page. The story of William and Jane Law in the last year of Jo Smith's life is linked from a mormonstories podcast.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 04:49PM by 2+2=4.

Thanks.

As others have basically said: You don't have to leave the church to leave the church. All you really need is those three facsimiles at the beginning of The Book of Abraham in The Pearl of Great Price. Take them to an egyptology department at your local university. Tangible proof.

Good point. Elegant proof right there.

QED

Easy one...fair and farms are proof something is wrong. The mormons have a living prophet that uses those apologist instead of giving an account of the full true history of the church. they are not explaining pure unedited doctrine.

You have prophets that don't speak to the concerns of the latter day people.

End o story.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
JS did polyandry and that is against the 10 commandments.
"And you shall not commit adultery"
"And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife"
Zina Young had 2 kids by her husband and 2 kids by BY.

blindednomore: The radical members of this church dont wanna know and will not know the actual truth. They can't handle it.

So they make up whatever B.S. about forged documents, and they believe 3 nephites stories, and they make up and pass along unverifiable stories of ppl who wore their garments and were not shot or burned.

I should know, cuz I bought these stories at full price.

40 years later, I tested my brain and exercised it by reading the facimiles in Pearl of Great Price and found out the church was officially debunked in 1966 publically.

Why in the hell did I not see this before I decided to go on a mission????

Because I never challenged anyone in the church to bring forward verifiable proof to give credence to the 3 nephites stories, garment stories, or stories about ppl making up doctrine and documents to destroy the LDS faith. Never once did I do my research.

So, I envy your intelligence blindednomore, I wished I was smart enough to had done what you are doing now. www.mormonthink.com