I have recently gone through a bad breakup and a lot of other things in my life. I am at a very low point of depression, the worst in my life, actually. People keep comforting me with the idea that there is a reason for everything and that these things had to happen so I could find myself or find the truth or the answers or whatever. I don't feel personally that these things are true, but right now I'm so down I'm not really sure what the truth is or how to find it anyway, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask.

Have you found in your life that there have been answers or reasons for things once you waited, or have you felt that it's just chaos and a big game of chance, or something else? Are there ways to think about things or perspectives that have helped you when you have been depressed or not seen any reason for anything or been at a low point in your life? I take regular steps like exercise, therapy, volunteering, and the like to help myself. My main problem is not my daily actions, but my thoughts and my personal worldview/perspective. Are there things that have served you in your life that have ended up being true for you that you can share?

Personally, I've found that things (usually Sh!t) does NOT "happen for a reason". People have said that to me, and I find it extremely offensive.

My 2-year-old son was killed by a drunk driver. The "reason" that this happened was NOT because of some universal plan or to teach me something - it happened because a young asshole thought he could get drunk, drive an unlicensed, uninsured car down State Street in SLC, and run a red light at 60 mph.

My 15-year-old daughter drowned. The "reason" for this was not because she was "wanted on the other side" (like her mother thinks), it was because her idiotic mother decided to take our children camping along with her boyfriend (to try to get them all to 'bond'). She didn't take the life vests I had bought for them. And never mind all the warnings we had in our home town about not swimming in the irrigation canals - let's just let the kids swim in a wild, deep river (that was deeper than the kids were tall) that had a fast current. What could go wrong? Mother paid her tithing, so her kids would be protected, wouldn't they? And afterwards, this 'mother' told me that our daughter "had a good life!" Hell, she had a goddamn SHORT life!

There is no meaning or greater purpose for experiencing tragedy. Life sucks, and crap happens.

I am so so sorry for your losses.

Omg Ragnar! I am so sorry for your loss and pain.

I would cuss too, more than you did.

I don't know if it eases the pain, but I think you assessment of the how and why are very sane and practical.

Maybe if more lives can be wired from infancy to be more sane and practical less insane and crazy things will happen to people, especially people who are behaving rationally with a reverence for this mortal life, because it is the only one we get.

Ragnar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally, I've found that things (usually Sh!t)
> does NOT "happen for a reason". People have said
> that to me, and I find it extremely offensive.

> There is no meaning or greater purpose for
> experiencing tragedy. Life sucks, and crap
> happens.

+ ∞

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Good grief, Ragnar! I've buried one son and that was more than enough pain and grief for me to bear. I cannot possibly imagine having to do that twice.

Many hugs and much love.

I used to think we were here to learn lessons in life on being human. I've studied Christianity, Buddhism, Wicca, Islam, Judaism and a few others.

When my son died in a car accident at 22 just before he was supposed to go to Iraq I was told he was fighting in God's Army in heaven. This only pissed me off. Of all the billions of people on this planet, God did not need my son who did not believe in him, to fight for him.

Honestly, these days I don't believe there is a reason for anything. We just are. Things happen as a result of human decisions. We are victims and we are survivors.

I think now I just believe in humanity -- some days more so than others.

I'm so sorry that you have suffered so much loss. That you are here and trying to help others says that there is meaning to life. When life sucks and crap happens, if you're lucky, somebody comes along with a shovel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 04:17PM by releve.

I think shit just happens. If you learned something from it, fantastic. Tragedy strikes the good, the bad, and the neutral everywhere, everyday.

What helped me develop a better attitude was accepting that life is suffering and when you can realize this, it's possible to transcend that suffering and deal with it a little more.

"life is suffering"

You got that right.

After son was killed (and before daughter died), I recognized this. I once had someone make a little cross-stitch thing/sign for me (which I framed). It says:

LIFE:
You're Born,
You Suffer,
You Die.

(How's that for depressing?)

I haven't displayed it on my wall very much - I don't want someone to report me and then I'd have to go through an involuntary mental health commitment or something...

My mother wanted a dozen kids. She wanted number 6 along with 7,8,9, and 10. She didn't get her dozen, that this is the reason I'm here.

The reason I don't believe in Mormonism is probably more complex but I like to think it was because I think and do so deeply and in the mists of darkness in existential ontology therefore I am NOT Mormon.

And some truth I've plumbed from those mists is I want my continued survival. It is the simple things that do it for me like breathing in and breathing out. Beyond that there are some nice things like that feeling after exercising or helping someone. A particularly nice sunset is really nice.

I'm reading Melville's "Moby Dick" and I'm finding it quite a wonderful ride.

Talks and books by Gordon B. Hinckley, reading "The Scriptures", that Utah voice, people telling me how they know their church is true. These things make it hard for me to breath.

So sorry for you Ragnar, but glad to see you've found a way to deal with unspeakable tragedy. You are a strong person.

OP - I subscribe to chaos theory. I don't believe in destiny, divine intervention, providence or any other magical thinking now that I'm post-Mo. My jury is still out on karma because anecdotally, I've witnessed it first-hand many times. If it does exist, it's because humans make it happen subconsciously is my theory.

The one positive I can take away from my time in the church: It cured me of illogical, irrational thinking.

Bottomline: Taking FULL responsibility for your own life, destiny, purpose is very freeing. No more praying to the gods/wishful thinking. Just roll up your own sleeves and make stuff happen. Good stuff.

Sorry you are feeling down right now - life has a way of flowing for you and against you at times. Keep swimming because the tide will turn soon enough...not because it was pre-ordained to turn, but just because that is what it does.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 05:20PM by iflewover.

I do not think that things "happen for a reason" and I would inwardly roll my eyes if someone said it to me. I don't know what you mean by "answers" but I think life as a whole is random, though there may be sub-parts that are deterministic.

I definitely don't believe in fate or in some over-arching determinism to the universe. That is my opinion.

I believe that we ourselves give our lives meaning. I am responsible for me and my life.

I do think that sometimes interesting things happen in life as a result of living through something painful. Sometimes you learn something, or gain a new perspective, or take a different approach to life out of a tragedy.

I guess that's the best way to try to play it, after you've survived the awful lowest part...better to play it that way than to turn into a vengeful damaged psycho, which I s'pose might be another way to play it.

But this isn't spiritual at all. Stupid stuff happens because humans do stupid stuff. It also happens because of nature (like a tornado).

Humanity needs to learn to OWN it's crap. Then we'll be able to do something about it.

What people probably mean is that for the most part, we move on and do okay in life. It's part of the reason our species has made it through hell from time to time. We're optimists. So, after going through hell, we're sitting on some proverbial tropical island in relative peace and we can say, "Wow! If I hadn't gone through that storm, I never would have stumbled upon this island." The jist is that we now BELONG on that island and the storm was simply the means of transportation.

It's a logical fallacy, but I think it's very human.

For someone who has just had a major tragedy I think the intended message is, "I'm here for you, and I'll help you get back on your feet." But the way they say it is superstitious and insensitive.

Thank you all for your kind thoughts and sympathy.

It's been many years since my son was killed and about 10 years since my daughter died, but the feelings of loss and anger (and sadness at their loss) are still there - below the surface.

Although I do have periods when I "turn into a vengeful damaged psycho."

Nine years after my son was killed, my brother called to tell me that the drunk driver involved (who essentially 'got off' - long story) was himself shot and killed during an argument at a drinking/drug party. I drove 2 hours on the day of his funeral to see the grave. I got there after the graveside service, but before the cemetary workers started to fill it in. I had consumed a couple of Pepsi's during my trip, and found it cathartic to relieve myself on his vault at the cemetary.

Good one. There are some advantages to being born male.

I have been through some great losses in my life, including the loss of a husband and my mother, within a very short time of each other. While working full time and raising teenagers, I tried my best to meet the needs of both husband and mom -- who were gravely ill at the same time. I bathed them, fed them and nursed them back to some semblance of health in the 2-3 year they were ill.

I remember vividly rushing them together to the hospital in my small car. I was alone and they were so sick that I had difficulty lifting them both into wheelchairs to get them to the ER.

After they died, I went through a long and lonely depression but I eventually rallied. It was tough economically. I was lonely and alone. But I somehow managed to go through it and reach the other side. Due to the economic downturn/unemployment in recent years, I was forced to declare bankruptcy. I lost my home. These are things I never envisioned or dreamed would happen to me. Never in a million years could this happen to me!

Now that I am older, it sometimes seems impossible to rally again and to bounce back.

When I am in a dark depression, there are few things, besides losing myself in reading or study, that gets me through. I remember words my dad taught me. After my mother died, he said that it was going to be okay because he "had no regrets."

He had been an excellent husband, loving mate, provider, father. They cherished one another. He treated her with dignity and respect.

I always remember that. I try to live my life with DH, my children, and others the same way, without regrets. It also helps for me to remember my mother. She was gentle, never raised her voice at me, and I felt unconditional love.

These are the things I cling to. I never get mad at a non existent God. I am not being punished. I am merely going through a coin toss. Fifty percent of the time I suffer. Fifty percent of the time I have joy. That is the law of averages.

But when the coin is "tails" instead of heads, I cling to my father's words about regret and memories of my mother's love.

Someday you'll understand they were needed on the other side
Someday you'll realize why you had to endure this
Someday you'll be able to see him again
Someday, someday, someday......


I used to take the "somedays" to heart thinking they MUST help; they are PROMISED to help; they are REVEALED to help.

Now I see these somedays as mostly well-meaning religious people trying to find the right words to console, and have come to know that they are their words, not mine, and I don't need to swallow them whole unless I choose to.

I believe that &*%# happens to everyone any size, shape or color, anytime. anywhere for any reason at all.

Yep, as others have said, life it is and the only one we'll have.

Well, my 2 cents: I have been through abuse, rape, death of a baby, and on and on. But I have 3 wonderful children, PTSD is under control and life is good right now. As I look back I see everything boiling down to a decision that I made or someone else made good or bad most of the time.The worst thing, I have found, is trying to explain why things happen in my head when they cannot be explained. That is when my thoughts become garbled and very painful. Once I got over the "everything happens for a reason" explanation I began to move forward and heal. Getting away from the church helped immensely I also realized some things happen no matter what I do or don't do. Just because I did not go to church, or the temple that week did not make my baby die (yes I was told that by an evil TBM).
The statement "we just are" is a good one. I realized that praying and fasting all day is not as effective as a good therapy session, meditation,helping someone else, or a good workout sometimes.

I'm beginning to feel there is just cause and effect, and universal laws that govern us. I'm not sure that God reaches down to tweak anything only because I haven't seen much in the way of proof of that. So I'm with you. I don't know.

Hey Ragnar

Thanks for having the guts and courage to share. It helps to know that others are having to deal with daily grief, which even when old, still brings chest pain and tears--just not as often.

The idea that life is suffering is the first of the Four Noble Truths of Buddhist psychology. The other truths contain the hope that opens the door to true inner freedom because it is the fear of that suffering (death, old age, grief) that leads us to place out trust in people who claim they have the "answer."

So my answer is that there is no answer but there are truths.

The truth that life is suffering or discomfort
Suffering is caused by trying to keep things from changing
Embracing change can end suffering
There is a way to live which replaces suffering with peace

The symbol of the Buddhist philosophy is the water lily which glows with its pristine beauty arising in perfect white splendor from the filthiest of water.

This is the analogy of our lives, which can be steady and beautiful even though we live in the chaos of family drama and the instability of human government, climate change, and most of all, the problem of evil as seen in the suffering of innocent people around the world.

Accepting the fact that we live with injustice all around us seems, at times, impossible. The Four Noble Truths teach us that accepting the fact of suffering and embracing the truth of change gives us the ability to see our lives in perspective.

Accepting the fact of the existence of injustice does not excuse our responsibility as citizens to fight for it, but it does give us the inner peace to be able to go for a walk in the forest and feel that connection with nature. It gives us permission to feel that "all is well" feeling within our own lives, the feeling of centeredness and satisfaction when your conscience is clear and you are doing your best.

The feminists used to say they would never be happy until every woman on earth was free. I choose to be happy even though life is full of suffering. It is also full of wonderful moments of great joy and satisfaction-- in spite of the past.

The single greatest change in my paradigm has been the end of my own preoccupation with myself. Gradually, through books like Sharon Salzberg's "Lovingkindness" I found a way to be in the world that different than anything I ever encountered either growing up or in any of the churches I tried.

Seeking your own "true" path is the natural alternative to finding the one true church as a goal for your life. Understanding and accepting that this path is unique to each person allows the entire world of human history to open up in front of us, full of ideas and thousands of years of human beings who stood at the ocean's edge and asked the same questions you are asking.

Why suffer only to die?

The answer we have all accepted in our past is that we are here to be tested for the better life in the hereafter.

I have learned that a better life awaits me here if I live fully each day in celebration of my life and that of everyone I care about.

Good luck in finding your own path to a meaningful life. It is like art-- no one can sculpt your piece or paint your painting and have it be an expression of you. Only you can do that.

The life that isn't worth living is the one designed by someone else.

Best

Anagrammy

Thanks for this.

A tornado hits the Velvet Spike, a gay bar, the minister at the Bigot Baptist Church claims God was punishing gays.

The next year, a tornado hits the Bigot Baptist Church. The minister claims it is God pushing the congregation because they are not fighting against gay rights hard enough.

You can find what ever meaning, answers or reasons you want in the things that happen.

God is one sick bastard.