My son is 9 years old and has not been baptised. My TBM DW was prepared to wait until I was "worthy" to perform the ordinance myself as she thought I would come around but now that she realises, the more I have researched the facts by visiting sites like mormonthink and by reading books such as "No Man Knows My History", the less likely that is to happen. I think she is feeling a lot of pressure from her ultra TBM family members to have him baptised and the subject, which we tended to avoid to keep the peace, is now cropping up more often.

Now my son is clearly not that interested in church and I have always maintained that he would far rather be playing club rugby with his friends on Sundays. A compromise has been reached that he can play club rugby next season and, when it clashes with church, he can attend his cousin's ward which meets at a different time. I have agreed that he can be baptised if he wants but I want it to be an informed decision that he makes. As he has already turned 9, I understand he has to have the missionary discussions first. I have said I would be happy for him to have the discussions but I would like to sit in on them to make sure he is not being mislead by false information and have recommended that his older siblings, who have already been baptised, and my DW sit in on them as well.

I see this as a golden opportunity to help my family get a clear picture of what TSCC is all about but I am conscious of the fact that I could also blow it if I come across as argumentative and completely negative the whole time.

I never went on a mission myself and it has been a long time since I went on split offs with missionaries so am not up to speed on the content of the discussions. I do remember how I used to cringe with the hard sell tactics and the constant pushing of investigators to make commitments which they clearly wanted more time to think about before making but would sometimes agree to so as not to cause offence.

I don't want to blow what is potentially be an opportunity to my whole family to exit as has happened with some good friends of ours. I might also be able to get the missionaries to do some critical thinking for themselves.

In order to make the most of the opportunity, I want to be as fully prepared as possible for each discussion. I would therefore be most grateful if someone could direct me to a link where I might find he latest version of the missionary discussions. I would also welcome any suggestions, particularly from any recently returned RM's who have had to face awkward questions about church history, DNA etc, as to what types of questions I might pose that would cause the most difficulty for the missionaries. I do not want to come across as hostile as I have nothing against them personally. I am inclined to use the letter to the CES director as a guide because it is a succinct and reasonably comprehensive exposé of the issues - what do you think?

It might be best to fake it through the baptism. Just go along with crap and lie to the penisholders in worthiness interviews to be able to do the baptism yourself.

However, you should at the same time explain to the child that this is to keep family unity because they have a mother prone to strange mythology, superstitions, and histrionics.

So, the short of the long is not to worry about correcting the discussions, you can do that starting the week after YOU baptize him so he doesn't have a wierd sense of being passed off to weirdos that have some spiritual relevance to him. Just teach him the first lesson in humoring his mother all the while explaining to him that this is just an action to take until she comes out of her slumber.

Don't have your son baptized into a destructive church you don't believe in.

I hope this works out well for you, him, and the whole family.

I would take it easy on aggressively countering all of this mormon brainwashing. They're not likely to listen and will just be angry and dig in their heels.

Be subtle and accommodating but firm in not having the baptism take place.

Part A:

You mentioned your wife's "ultra TBM family members" applying "a lot of pressure" on her "to have him baptised." She needs to tell them to BACK OFF! It's his CHOICE, not their or hers.

Unfortunately, immature and dysfunctional Mormons (there are SO many of them!) are adept at subtly and overtly manipulating other Latter-day Saints to do what they want through the application of fear, guilt, and/or shame. I'd wager $100 that if your son says that he doesn't want to be baptized, they'll try every way they can to pressure/coerce him.

Does your son even WANT to take the missionary lessons? Has anybody asked him? Does he WANT to attend the Mormon Church at all? Doesn't sound like it. You wrote: "my son is clearly not that interested in church and I have always maintained that he would far rather be playing club rugby with his friends on Sundays."

There's the TRUTH - your son's truth - that you, your wife, and ALL Mormons who know him should be respecting.

Sooner or later, your son's going to have to learn to stand up for himself, speak his mind, and assert his will and desires for his life, whether the authority figures in his life agree with his choices or not. Any competent psychologist will tell you that doing so is a VERY important part of transitioning from a parent-placating boy to an independent and capable young man pursuing his commendable goals and vision for his life.

I know from painful experience the truth of what I've written. When I was nine, I was the 'rope' in a constant tug-of-war between my never-Mo father, an atheist who strongly disliked Mormonism, and my manic-depressive, ultra-TBM mother, an unquestioning convert to Mormonism in the mid-1960s. How I would've appreciated my parents calmly and rationally asking me: "What do YOU want to do in relation to the Mormon Church and religion?" (I would've replied that I had no interest in either.)

Part B:

Who lists The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on his website as a thought-control organization (cult)? America's leading cult expert, Steven Hassan. Click on "ABC" and go to the church's name for more info. You'll also see JS' face image in the upper right corner of the webpage: http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/list.php

Your son - and 100's of 1,000's of other young people being 'brainwashed' in cultic Mormonism as well as adult Mormons have ALWAYS had the RIGHT to know the FULL truth about Joseph Smith's lies-based religion.

The chronically dishonest Mormon Church won't inform your son that JS fabricated incongruous versions of his so-called 'First Vision' experience (see http://mit.irr.org/joseph-smiths-changing-first-vision-accounts for details).

The misleading LD$ Church won't tell your son that the scientific fields of human genetics, archeology, and linguistics ALONE have utterly undermined the BoM in terms of it being what habitual liar JS claimed, namely, an "important and interesting book" in which "the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era." (Ref. http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/07/the-wentworth-letter?lang=eng)

The money-grubbing LD$ Church won't allow your son EVER to scrutinize its financial records (or have his accountant do so) in order to determine how his tithing (if he pays it) is spent.

Part C:

Here's what Bloomberg Businessweek Magazine reported a year ago:

"According to U.S. law, religions have no obligation to open their books to the public, and the LDS Church officially stopped reporting any finances in the early 1960s. In 1997 an investigation by Time [Magazine] used cross-religious comparisons and internal information to estimate the church’s total value at $30 billion. The magazine also produced an estimate that $5 billion worth of tithing flows into the church annually, and that it owned at least $6 billion in stocks and bonds. The Mormon Church at the time said the estimates were grossly exaggerated, but a recent investigation by Reuters in collaboration with [Univ. of Tampa] sociology professor [Ryan] Cragun estimates that the LDS Church is likely worth $40 billion today and collects up to $8 billion in tithing each year.

"[Dr. D. Michael] Quinn, a faithful Mormon who spent 12 years on the faculty at the LDS Church’s Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, before being excommunicated for apostasy related to research he published on Mormons, has been gathering financial information [about the church] for years. Several high-ranking church insiders told him that the church’s finances are so compartmentalized that no single person, not even the president, knows the entirety of its holdings."

(Ref. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-10/how-the-mormons-make-money)

"Many Mormons see their church’s economic success as a sign of good stewardship, but at least a few I [Businessweek reporter Caroline Winter] spoke to say they are uneasy about the price tag of the new [multi-billion-dollar] Mormon [City Creek] mall [in SLC], the church’s lack of transparency, and its centralized finances. 'The money may be perfectly administered, for all we know,' says Ron Madson, 57, a lawyer and lifelong Mormon who once served as a church bishop. 'But we don’t know.... When we see these expenses for the City Creek Mall, for the hunting preserves, these commercial enterprises, Ensign Peak [Advisors], we don’t know where it’s going.'”

(Ref. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-10/how-the-mormons-make-money#p5)

"According to an official church Welfare Services fact sheet, the church gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid in more than 178 countries and territories during the 25 years between 1985 and 2010. A fact sheet from the previous year indicates that less than one-third of the sum was monetary assistance, while the rest was in the form of 'material assistance.' All in all, if one were to evenly distribute that $1.3 billion over a quarter-century, it would mean that the church gave $52 million annually. A study co-written by Cragun and recently published in Free Inquiry estimates that the Mormon Church donates only about 0.7 percent of its annual income to charity; the United Methodist Church gives about 29 percent."

(Ref. also http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-10/how-the-mormons-make-money#p5)

Part D:

I did posts earlier this year that I suggest you peruse:

"The LD$ Church has misled millions of people & defrauded them of billions.": http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,940751,941377#msg-941377

"I suggest start w/ the July '93 Ensign article by LDS apostle R. Nelson about JS 'translating' the BoM w/ his 'seer' stone and hat (links)": http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,888649,889393#msg-889393

Some additional (and overlapping) info. is here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,750541,751997#msg-751997

Ditto: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,732511,732511#msg-732511

Finally...

Your son's right to choose for himself in relation to Mormonism, independent of what his mother or father want, is ultimately what matters in this regard. He is an individual, with his own, developing mind, personality, intellect, abilities, interests, dislikes - everything that makes a person unique.

The great harm that cultic Mormonism does to kids is that it:

- Systematically misleads them about JS, the BoM, early church history, and more;

- 'Programs' them to believe that DEMONSTRABLE nonsense is 'true', while SCRUTINIZED/VERIFIABLE facts are not to be trusted if they lead them, regardless of their age, to doubting that the LD$ Church and religion are 'true'.

Here's info. about how cultic Mo-ism 'brainwashes' people and negatively affects their self-esteem: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

The website also explains what people need to do in order to mature psychologically and develop as an individual.

I hope this info. (lots of it) helps. Good luck!

Holy Moses. I just posted below and came back to read this.

Watto, Are you ready for a REAL HONEST education?

Thank you Freeatlast, this is extremely helpful. The only reason I am prepared to let him have the discussions is because I want him and the rest of the family to get the full picture. I am confident that at the end of it he will elect not to get baptised and that his older siblings (highly intelligent girls) will have their eyes opened as to what the early leaders of the church were really like and will be duly appalled.

You might ask why I don't just tell them. If I do try and tell my DW what I have found she is generally of the view that I am giving an anti-mormons distorted view of the facts. By having the missionaries present, I will be able to challenge them when they talk sh*t and expose how much of the truth they have been sheltered from. My DW has read rough stone rolling so even pointing out some of the facts contained in that book will hopefully be enough to make them squirm.

It's like divorced parents who try to prove the other is wrong by dishing dirt with the kid in the middle. Even if the child is convinced and the other parent is humiliated, the kid loses.

I think it all depends on how he conducts himself. People can have informative discussion without getting argumentative. Some people are incapable of that though. Depends on the OP here.

I think its a great idea if he knows how to handle himself.

The missionaries will use the "Preach My Gospel" manual. You can view it at http://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service?lang=eng

Suggestion:

The entire claim of the church rests on the "FIRST VISION". Go to MormonThink and read everything on that topic.

Then prepare a list of questions to stump the missionaries. If they can't answer the questions then tell them to get answers to them BEFORE moving on to any other topic.

Questions:

1. Please tell me who in church history is the famous person besides Joseph Smith to testify when the church was organized in 1830 that they were inspired by Joseph's testimony of the first vision when he saw the Father and Jesus?

Answer: There is no such person. But, make them go and look.

------

2. Who are the prominent early church members to join the church in 1830 who testified of Joseph's first vision?

Answer: There are none. Not even the BoM scribes testified nor did the 3 witnesses to the BoM, nor did JS's parents etc.

------

3. Read from MormonThink the section wherein JS and Oliver Cowdery wrote the first history of the church and published it in 1835. There's a section wherein JS states that in 1823 he was visited by Nephi/Moroni and the REASON he was praying in 1823 was TO KNOW IF GOD EXISTED.

Pause, look at the missionaries. Then ask, "If Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus in 1820 in the sacred grove, why would he publish in 1835 that in 1823 he was praying to know if God existed?

Answer from the missionaries: they can't answer it.

------

4. Tell the missionaries that for over 100 years the church held in its archives (hidden from the public) the only hand written account of the first vision in Joseph Smith's handwriting. It was written in 1832. In it he states he saw one person in the vision. Ask the missionaries: "Why wouldn't that first account be the most accurate since it is the earliest recorded version?

Answer: Who knows what they'll say.

If they try to say something like, "JS wasn't very good at writing and so that's why there isn't an accurate version."

Remind them, that JS did not have to write down the version himself. He could simply TESTIFY bodly as God's prophet of the restoration and repeat that testimony over and over. There are many who would have heard him and at least one person would have written about it. Even the anti-Mormon's, those evil persons that the Devil was using to destroy the church, did not even write about the First Vision account that is known today. Why? Because JS did not testify of it because it DID NOT HAPPEN.

Then tell them: When I have a spiritual experience or hear words in my mind I can remember EVERY single detail down to the most minute fraction. Ask the missionaries: "Why couldn't JS remember the most awesome experience of a lifetime as the prophet of the restoration?

------

5. Why would God and Jesus Christ appear to JS and then know as only God's can know, that he wouldn't tell the story and get it right from the get go? What kind of God is so incompetent as to choose a guy, JS, whom they knew wasn't going to get the story right?

Answer: Who knows what they'll say. But, you can say, isn't it interesting that God allegedly gave JS many revelations that are in the Doctrine and Covenants on all kinds of topics, but he never told JS the following: "Hey JS, this is God. I came and visited you in 1820 with my son. We took the time to give you the most awesome vision of any man - so write it down - at least get our story straight from the get go."

------

Pretty soon the missionaries will be frustrated. Make them go home and look for answers to PROVE that the first vision took place. Don't just settle for the Preach My Gospel correlated drivel.

Show them the evidence that Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodriff, Heber C.Kimball etc. testified for 50+ years after 1820 that JS saw "an angel" in the first vision. Have the quotes from MormonThink ready.

The point is that not even those early leaders of the church taught the story - so why are you missionaries telling a different story.

------

Show the missionaries how it took 100 years until 1920 for the church to get the theology of the Godhead figured out. That's right. The first presidency had the intellectual apostle, James E. Talmage write it up for approval. IT TOOK THE MORMON CHURCH 100 YEARS TO GET THAT DOCTRINE STRAIGHT.

Ask the missionaries: Shouldn't that doctrine have been perfectly secured in JS's mind and all subsequent leaders from the Spring of 1820? You see missionaries, it has all evolved.

------

You can show the missionaries how the church historian changed the text from the first printing in the church history of the first vision from "visitation of angels" to "first vision". That change was to make the history books that we get stuck with 183 years later look as though it AGREES with today's version of the First Vision.

------

OK. You get my point. If your son and family can see the Elders frustrated at the REAL facts, maybe, just maybe your son will choose not to get baptized - because the missionaries can't even get the story correct.

This might be too much thinking for a 9 year old. But, at least you'll have the missionaries doing cart wheels with cognitive dissonance pinging between the ears. Everyone will be edified with facts NOT FICTION.

Good luck.

EDIT: If you went over the First Vision Story from MormonThink with your 9 year-old and then had the missionaries there, perhaps he'd see that they aren't being honest. Perhaps that would turn him off to going further. Only you know your son.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 03:49AM by jiminycricket.

Thanks for suggestions Jiminy. They are excellent and will be used.

You want to sit in on the discussions so there is no false info presented, but what else is there?

Do you say to yourself that the message was mostly about Jesus and being good, so cheery poo?

You seem to know the con. And it is a con.

If your sons baptism keeps your family glued together, than cool, no need to take a hard line, but I would recommend staying true to your own beliefs/knowledge.

There's a storm brewing....

You are heading for trouble if you start to push information forward. All that will happen is that DW (egged on by the family) will push back and before you know it you will be in a deal breaking situation.

The best resolution/compromise I've seen, for situations like the one you describe yourself as being in, is to agree to put off the child's baptism until they are truly old enough to decide for themselves without it being a tug of war between the parents. This age seems to be sixteen.

Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 05:31AM by Stumbling.

I can understand you wanting to put up a good counter argument of what a fraud the morg is for the missionaries. However, your 9 yr old must be incredibly intelligent if you think he is going to string the complete con man/ fraud system that the morg. is based upon debates with the missionaries. He apparently isn't a forward on his rugby team (oh dog I crack myself up). If you really want your son to make an 'informed' decision, tell all involved that he will come back to this baptism question once he graduates from univ. in Philosophy.

I'm not saying I'm right, but pick your battles. If the key battle is shaking the missionaries out of their stupor then go ahead with debate-discussions. But, If its to get your entire family out at once - buy yourself some time and good will, don't let the morg steal any father role from you, plus get the little rugger to understand he needs to be on your side in pleasing his mom so she can be brought out of it one day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 09:24AM by templeendumbed.

I sympathize with you. However, I don't see, from your post, that you have an opportunity to exit with your whole family. Of course that would be wonderful, but sounds like your DW is pretty hardcore TBM. Did I miss something?

For my part, I wouldn't allow it. You need to decide what you'll go to the matt for. For me, I let DW know that I was willing to put her to the curb before I ever let my kids join the cult. I may be an a$$hole...and I don't care.

Watto,

I would avoid starting World War 3 with your son right in the middle of the battlefield.

If you want to spread some Truth around, do it in a side skirmish.

Leave DS out of the military...


All the best to you!

Are you sure? Because if that's a rule now, it's not only THE NEW DUMBEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD, but also quite obviously just a way to pressure parents and punish those who don't keep the indoctrination schedule, shore up the membership numbers, and give the young zombie weirdo freak prison inmates something to do. Not to mention a captive and defenseless audience to practice on!

Good luck with that thing where you try to keep him from being misled.

There's a simple solution:

Tell your wife that you will first allow the missionaries to give you the lessons (they don't do discussions anymore).

Tell her that you will require them to provide evidence for every claim they make. Anytime they are unable to provide evidence for one of their claims they must agree to remove that claim from their lessons.

Then, they will only be allowed to teach your son things they are able to prove.

In short, there won't be anything left for them to teach.

This makes perfect sense.

You can avoid the war with your son present and get what you really want - your son not being baptised.

I agree 100% with Cheryl.

Making your child the means to "get" information to other family members is manipulation. I am not blaming you for considering it because a person can feel so desperate when they are surrounded by people they love who are being abused and exploited by a corporation posing as followers of Jesus.

Part of recovery for you is to stop being Mormon. Stop manipulating and playing "the end justifies the means." Start thinking instead about your child and how he would feel being placed in this terrible situation.

Seriously, missionary discussions for a nine year old is a TERRIBLE IDEA. You risk having a stroke as they speak bumper stickers from FAIR for everything you say.

I just had missionaries last night and I found myself becoming angry --

"Sorry your bishop told you the prophet trumps Jesus Christ. He was in error. The church is perfect, the people aren't."

"There are extremists and enemies of the church who have made up those stories about God becoming a Man. They need to get back to the simple Gospel of Jesus, which is what we teach."

"But I do pray to Jesus! I prayed to him just last night and feel I have a personal relationship--whoever told you that was wrong is not a true Mormon."

"Facts do matter, and the important fact is that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us. All worship the same God and Mormons teach that all sincere good men go to the same heaven."

If you counter this with the actual teachings, they will simply say, "Members are free to publish books with their own ideas."

or, worse yet, "If that's a church teaching, why have I never heard it and I've been a member all my life."

on church changes, "The church is simplifying. It is getting back to basics, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Anything else that a prophet said or that was taught in the last century is not being emphasized now. We go by the current prophet. This church is all about family and love."

so I quoted the temple question, "Do you sympathize or associate with any apostates?" and how that had ripped families apart and how the "family" church forced parents and grandparents to sit outside when their children are married in the temple.

The one turned to the other and said, "Is this true?" Her senior companion said, "No."

I am quoting this to show you that your blood can boil in front of your child and your whole family so that you could leap to your feat yelling, "YOU ARE LYING AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT!" You will look like a madman and your child will start crying. The family members will comfort him, saying, "Your Daddy didn't mean it, honey, you know how he gets."

Your child will remember the whole disaster as YOUR fault. YOU put him into that position and your family will pet him and say, "Even you can tell who had the Holy SPirit and who did not."

Please do not do this.

Instead, frame the whole thing as you fighting for the right of a child to choose. If he is accountable and able to choose to be baptized, then he is able to choose NOT to be baptized. I want him to operate under the plan of Jesus Christ, which is that people are free to choose.

You tell your son it's up to him and if he wants to hear why you don't believe, you will be glad to tell him straight up and give him information.

Then tell him about the Book of Abraham papyri discovery that proved that Joseph Smith was just pretending he could translate. Show him Joseph Smith's "alphabet" and then show him the facsimiles and how Joseph Smith altered them. Show him what they really mean.

I chose this as the best illustration of Joseph Smith's fraud because IT IS VISUAL. This is a very young child and the span of attention isn't that long. (those missionary lessons would be torture). Your little boy will remember the facsimiles long after he has forgotten the word "papyri".

From now on, picture yourself when you were your son's age. Take the time to make your decisions in the future based on real respect for him. Make a promise never to use your children to "further the kingdom" or "defeat the kingdom" but always to surround them with the protection of your consideration for their comfort and well-being. That's real love of family replacing love (or hate) for a church.

I sense you have great strength and as you refuse to be Mormon, or continue to act like a Mormon, you will be remembered by your son as the parent who was a light at the end of the tunnel--the parent who fought for him when everyone else was trying to get him to CHOOSE THEIR RIGHT.

Best

Anagrammy

And do we know if it's a church-wide requirement that 9-year-olds have missionary discussions? I've been out so long, I really don't know.

I think I might have been 9 when I was baptized, and both my parents were inactive, and there were no missionary discussions. I don't even think I had an interview with the bishop. If I did, I don't remember it. The bishop was my neighbor, and I think I'd remember.

Then again, it was 45 years ago.

The reason I ask is, if it's not really a requirement or a rule, then maybe Watto is the one being manipulated.

No, it is a requirement for 9 yrs. & up.

Don't discount what a 9 yr. old does and doesn't internalize. On Sunday, my 9 yr. old (almost 10 yrs.) and I were riding in the car. He told me how last week in Primary, one of the kids asked how come it mentioned wine in the scriptures. He said the Primary Pres. said they were really talking about grape juice and then it wasn't really wine. My son said he almost raised his hand and said, "Hey, what about refrigeration? You know they didn't have any back then. Hello?" The he said it was worth it, so he just kept quiet.

Haha! We had discussed this months ago. I was impressed he remembered.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 01:09PM by Bite Me.

I was the same way at the same age. I wanted out of there so badly!

Very true when i was young, maybe around 9 or 10, I remember finding inconsistencies in the bom and what i was taught on sunday at church. Little kids are smart.

But they haven't had the life experiences to make it fair for them to make adult decisions about life. Nor do they have the wherewithal to stand up to adults with authority over them. Smart as they are, they have a right to be kids, not miniature adults.

Or, in the immortal words of Rachel Jeantel (whom I <3 and expect to refer often to her wisdom): "That's real retarded, sir."

If you can, let your son decide when he's 18 and an adult if he wants to get baptized. Besides, your son could be baptized into the church after he dies, so why bother when he's alive?

Given current health problems in the US, isn't rugby better than 3 hours of church (+ addition meetings) for a child?

Burdening a 9year old with such crap is incredibly irresponsible.

Drive the mishies from your home, forcefully if necessary.

Would you stand by and let the child pick up a rattle snake?

If there ever was a time to make a stand it is NOW.

Your wife needs to decide if she loves the church more than you and the kids.
In the end this is what it will come down to anyway, in each and every case.

Your son will be mislead in the first discussion as soon as they start talking about Joseph Smith and the first vision.

I feel the same way. Starts with a lie and gets worse from there. Your child may say many yrs. later..."Dad why did you sit there and not say a thing when you didn't believe any of it?" Be prepared. I agree with Cheryl and Glo. Don't allow the baptism. He can decide for himself when he is 18.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 01:37PM by honestone.

They ARE called DISCUSSIONS. Talk to your wife and child and explain to them that they will be in a DISCUSSION about the church and that you do not believe in it and that you will DISCUSS what you believe about it. You don't have to win those arguments but it will be an opportunity to layout new information for everything to think about. OBVIOUSLY the mishies are not gonna roll over and accept everything you say. They'll have their shallow rebuttals, which is fine, but at least this is an opportunity for you to offer NEW EVIDENCE to everyone in the room.

These are seeds that are being planted. Go ahead and let them bear their testimonies and claim silly things. They HAVE to say that crap. Don't get in a back and forth. Give your take on their "rebuttal" but then after each response, say "that's how I see it but we can agree to disagree." Then smile and let them move on to the next section.

I suggest using Packham's website below. It pretty much hits on everything the mishies will say.

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm