It's Thanksgiving this coming weekend up here in Canada.

Church sign I saw yesterday: Dear Atheist Friends: What are you doing for Thanksgiving?

New proselytizing technique: Insult people into the pews!

How can people really think that "all atheists" are amoral? Oh yeah, and ungrateful. (The implied message from such a remark, which is not new or unique).

The ignorance appalls me. Not to mention the discourtesy.

This type of thinking embarrasses me as a Christian. Maybe they think a slogan like that is cute and catchy, or funny.

News Flash: Not really.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 12:27PM by Nightingale.

Except for the fact that (in the U.S.) its mostly associated with the Pilgrims being thankful that they were surviving.

I guess that means they were thankful to their god, but it seems to me that they should have been more thankful to the native peoples who shared their food and skills with them.

Good point, sisterexmo. The origins, from what I've read, relate more to celebrating the harvest, which sounds distinctly pre-Christian. It's often referred to as the harvest festival.

I don't see anything wrong with religious folks "giving thanks" and non-religious also acknowledging their gratitude for our bounty here in North America. No one special group owns the observance.

Here are a couple of sites that outline the history of Thanksgiving in Canada.

http://hubpages.com/hub/thanksgivingcanada

http://www.thanksgivingnovember.com/canadian-thanksgiving.html

It is generally seen as a time to enjoy a holiday meal and be with family. True enough, the proclamation to the Canadian Parliament about the establishment of the current date for the holiday mentions God. I don't think that cements it as a festival only for Christians. I say each one of us can observe the time of thanks within our own cultures and beliefs and to each his/her own.

I am definitely grateful - for the pumpkin pie, and for a day off work!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 12:52PM by Nightingale.

I have no god. But I am passionately grateful to whatever is providing the opportunity for me to exist in this fantastic, beautiful, and dangerous Universe.

Cheers to Canada - I will celebrate your Thanksgiving too!

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good point, sisterexmo. The origins, from what
> I've read, relate more to celebrating the harvest,
> which sounds distinctly pre-Christian. It's often
> referred to as the harvest festival.
>
> I don't see anything wrong with religious folks
> "giving thanks" and non-religious also
> acknowledging their gratitude for our bounty here
> in North America. No one special group owns the
> observance.
>
> Here are a couple of sites that outline the
> history of Thanksgiving in Canada.
>
> http://hubpages.com/hub/thanksgivingcanada
>
> http://www.thanksgivingnovember.com/canadian-thank
> sgiving.html
>
> It is generally seen as a time to enjoy a holiday
> meal and be with family. True enough, the
> proclamation to the Canadian Parliament about the
> establishment of the current date for the holiday
> mentions God. I don't think that cements it as a
> festival only for Christians. I say each one of us
> can observe the time of thanks within our own
> cultures and beliefs and to each his/her own.
>
> I am definitely grateful - for the pumpkin pie,
> and for a day off work!!!

As I understand it, Thanksgiving wasn't a big deal until the Civil War when Lincoln declared it a day of thanks. Since the Pilgrims were extremely religious, I would say there as always been the assumption that they were giving thanks to God.I didn't google it, but if I remember correctly, Lincoln made a reference to God too. However, that does not mean that non believers can't be grateful for the good things they have and celebrate the holiday too.It is hardly an exclusively religious holiday. I don't know enough about the Canadian holiday to comment on it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 03:15PM by bona dea.

... for which I am most thankful!

How awesome and sweet of Canada to grant me yet another excuse to do what I do so well!

I also celebrate the Brit's "Guy Fawkes Day" with equal fervor, although I'm not sure why. Its my understanding that the so-called "gunpowder plot" failed. Not exactly a reason to celebrate, but I takes whatever I can get!

Timothy

Food, beer and sports? You do surprise me Big Tim! :)

Re Guy Fawkes:

http://www.bonfirenight.net/bonfire.php

Apparently Guy Fawkes Night is to celebrate his capture and the saving of the king. I thought it was to lend support to the concept of giving power to the common man, or something like that. Power to the People, Baby! Not that poor Guy was successful in his coup attempt but hey, I guess it's one way to have your name live on. For me, I'd rather die in obscurity than on top of a bonfire. But I guess the call of history, or Fate, has plans for some of us.

It looks like we're going to have a weekend of lovely fall weather to go with our feast, family and fun. I'm definitely grateful, for all of it.

Enjoy your football! Et al...

Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... for which I am most thankful!
>
> How awesome and sweet of Canada to grant me yet
> another excuse to do what I do so well!
>
> I also celebrate the Brit's "Guy Fawkes Day" with
> equal fervor, although I'm not sure why. Its my
> understanding that the so-called "gunpowder plot"
> failed. Not exactly a reason to celebrate, but I
> takes whatever I can get!
>
> Timothy

Yeah! Toffee flavoured beer! That's the ticket!

I'm an atheist, and for Thanksgiving I give thanks to the "Founding Fathers" for laying the groundwork for "separation of church and state."
I also give thanks to the people who deserve it. I don't need a god to give thanks to people, I tell them thanks.

Raptorjesus

If you live in Canada like I do, then unfortunately there is no separation of church and state. Today in Canada there are many state institutions that observe religion.

Many religions (you know who you are) have there hooks in the school system. Which is a total mockery of learning. After holding mass in which they believe literally changes wine to blood and wafers to flesh, they then teach classes. How can you have a serious discussion about chemistry, when in the classroom you just saw a magic show portrayed as fact, which any self respecting chemist could tell you it's complete BS?

P.S. I'm having thanksgiving dinner with my brother who is still a mormon, and we will not be discussing religion what so ever.

Mick,

That's interesting. I really didn't know that about Canada.
In the States we have a different problem that runs very parallel to what you just talked about. Our public schools are struggling very hard to educate our children properly. This causes many parents to home-school their children or put them in private schools. While some private schooling/home-schooling is fine and quite secular, many parents use this option to send their children to very very religious schooling whether it be private or home-schooled.
This clearly shows up as our nation has abysmal stats for math, science, or even knowledge of and "belief in" evolution.
We also have this emerging group of conservatives who don't understand the "separation of church and state" issue at all and don't believe that it is anywhere to be found in our constitution. Of course, these same people only believe that this "no separation" applies only to Christianity.

Mick said: "[In Canada] there is no separation of church and state. Today in Canada there are many state institutions that observe religion."

I live in Canada too, Mick. I don't see this "no separation" that you describe. I would say it's very much to the contrary. You don't give any examples except what sounds like a Catholic school, which would be private, not public (although it's true that private schools receive govt funding just as public schools do - result is that religious schools receive funds, among them the school in Bountiful, run by polygamists).

While that is a connection between govt (taxpayers) and private (religious) schools, it is a long way from denoting Canada as a place where there is no separation between church and state.

I'd need more examples from you to better understand your opinion. However, I am completely unaware of any major or consistent examples that would prove your point on this.

I'd put Canada down as far more secular than the USA, given that religion plays little to no part in our elections, unlike the situation in the US where a candidate's religious views must be included in their platform and may significantly influence the vote. Also, our public schools are distinctly secular. Obviously, in the religious schools (for instance, Catholic in your example) religion plays a part. But it is a parental decision whether to send their child to a private school or not. It is not an unavoidable religious experience against the will of the participants.

Nightingale,

What I meant by no separation or church and state, as apposed to the US, is that unlike the US where it is written in the constitution nowhere in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is there any mention about separation of church and state.

If you would like to read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I have attached a link to the official DOJ webpage. The part regarding religion is found under Fundamental Freedoms. No where does it state that religion and state should be kept separate.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

With regards to school funding, they can call themselves private schools, but they still receive tax payer money which is a direct link between church and state.

Hope this help.

gawd...all you heathens are so ...so..... well.... thankful...but how can you be thankful if there is no deity?? who is there to give thanks to?? HEY.... i know....lets give thanks to the Church of BEER!! :)...WOOHOO!! HEY..is there any football(real) :).... in Au Canada on your Thanksgiving??? inquiring minds wanna know!! :)

I be likin' that CFL and wish the NFL would adopt some of its rules!

IsaythesethingsinthenameofWarrenMoon, amen!

Timothy

Ha. I thought he meant soccer, The Beautiful Game.

In both cases I'm positive we've got it scheduled over the Thxgiving weekend, upcoming.

We watch the international soccer (UK) on one of the special sports channels. I like the speed of it. (North) American football can be quite slow, so many interruptions. It's like watching a TV drama that cuts to commercial every other minute. I do like observing the strategy of the game though, like a living chess game. In a recent game with our home team, in the last few minutes with a close score, it was a case of do we go for a TD, kick a (sure thing) field goal and/or run out the clock, etc. That part I like. And also the Hail Marys.

I also just in general like Men in Shorts in Sports. With all those helmets and padding in American football it's hard to tell the players apart. You can't see their faces - or their legs. Soccer offers greater visibility. I'm sure that's why they call it The Beautiful Game. I agree on all counts. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 12:00PM by Nightingale.

Good to be an Atheist.

HH =)

Getting with as much family as possible, cooking as much as possible, making dishes we make just once a year, remembering people who aren't there, loving those that are.

I don't get that sign, because it's not like non-atheists are going to church services or doing things that we atheists aren't doing. Weird.

I'm an atheist and I am a very grateful atheist, just that the gatitude is generally directed towards life -- I'm probably the happiest, most grateful person that I know.

Cook a ton of food and have fun with my family. :)

News Flash: Thanksgiving is not a Christian holiday.

As an atheist, it is one of the few holidays that I do celebrate in the traditional manner: by gorging myself on rich fatty foods and falling asleep in front of the Lions game on TV.

What the hell else would an American do on Thanksgiving?

When things were so far off from adding up with my beliefs (despite my effort to 'balance the books' with faith), I struggled for months to gain the courage to investigate my Mor[m]on beliefs. Finally, by pure happenstance, my attention was diverted to the hypothesis that the whole Jesus story was myth. My indoctrination regarding 'anti-mormon' ideas held much less sway when it came to the idea of investigating the Jesus story. So that's the avenue I pursued.

The objective evidence is overwhelmingly more compelling for the case of atheism than for God, Jesus and/or Mormonism.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-death-rebirth_deity for the list given below of Life/death/rebirth deities across many cultures and times. The possibility that they all were "counterfeits" of the REAL savior/messiah who god allegedly revealed to Adam and the early patriarchs is as unlikely as there actually being a first-man "Adam" in the first place.

* Australian Aboriginal mythology
o Julunggul
o Wawalag
* Akkadian mythology
o Tammuz
o Ishtar
* Arabian mythology
o Phoenix
* Aztec mythology
o Quetzalcoatl
o Xipe Totec
* Canaanite mythology
o Melqart
* Middle eastern mythology
o Jesus
o Makaveli
* Dacian mythology
o Zalmoxis
* Egyptian mythology
o Osiris
o Amun
o Amun-Min (Amen-Min)
* Etruscan mythology
o Atunis -Also known as "Adonis" (Greek)
* Greek mythology
o Adonis
o Cronus
o Dionysus
o Orpheus
o Persephone
* Japanese mythology
o Izanagi
* Khoikhoi mythology
o Heitsi Eibib [9]
* Native American mythology
o Kaknu
* Norse mythology
o Baldr [10]
o Gullveig [11]
o Odin
* Phrygian mythology
o Attis
* Religion in ancient Rome
o Mithras
o Aeneas
o Bacchus
o Proserpina
* Slavic mythology
o Veles
o Jarilo
* Sumerian mythology
o Dumuzi
o Inanna

... I said bulls**t on that!

Timothy

What is it with ex-mormons becoming atheists? Seems to be all too common, IMHO. It seems that your faith in Joseph Smith was a substitute for a true faith in God, and now that you know Joe Smith is a world class con, you are left with nothing? Have you investigated Jesus with the same vigor that you eventually investigated the Mormon claims? Were you an atheist before you were an ex mormon? How can you say that God does not exist?

Yes. We have investigated Jesus -- don't assume that just because we don't believe in god that we're lazy, stupid or completely skeptical.
You should probably investigate some history and science.

And you probably shouldn't imply that someone knows nothing about history or science if they are a Christian. Just saying that it works both ways.

Obviously christians can't be argued with -- it's not worth my time.
But, since you asked, I'll just scratch the surface with it. Besides, the question was for atheist. If you want to ask that particular question of atheists, then start a new thread -- this one was about Thanksgiving, not the impossiblity of virgin birth by the invisible, non-material holy ghost (who happens to pack around a wad of the most high's precious sprem just for such an occassion) or even by an all-powerful god who impregnates a little female ape with himself (as the baby) so that he can kill himself later and ask why he abandoned himself, so he can damn and hold accountable a bunch of apes for his precieved grievences. And he loves them, but he really is jealous of these apes for not believing the word of the "infallible word" of the craziest of craziest, superstitious people in world from the dark ages all the way back (only the abrahamic religions). And if they don't beleive he will sentence them to burn in a lake of fire for not two minutes, two hours or two days, but for all freaking eternity while he sets around on his ass in a big puffy cloud for the rest of eternity and the true believers spend the rest of their eternity monotiously, banefully singing his praises. No wonder he made people for his "glory" -- seems a little egocentric ("don't say that he's a perfect bean" (sic)). Not to mention all the other implausible stuff -- and then you want to aruge that it makes more sense to believe this nonsense than all the other reality we have been observing for thousands of years! Are you nuts? You would have to be -- and dishonest too!
But . . . for one thing, you can't prove a negative -- I know that religious people don't understand this concept because I've seen the arguments too many times on here. In fact, I remember Packman schooling you in some of the ways of logic, as a way of making sure you didn't come off looking goofy (it was a nice gesture from him) and you still couldn't get it.
So from now on, I figure arguing with a christian (or mormon for that matter) is about as useful as trying to raise a bunch of brain-dead cropses from the grave! If you honestly believe it, then it’s beyond the point of honest discussion.

The Motrix Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obviously christians can't be argued with -- it's
> not worth my time.
> But, since you asked, I'll just scratch the
> surface with it. Besides, the question was for
> atheist. If you want to ask that particular
> question of atheists, then start a new thread --
> this one was about Thanksgiving, not the
> impossiblity of virgin birth by the invisible,
> non-material holy ghost (who happens to pack
> around a wad of the most high's precious sprem
> just for such an occassion) or even by an
> all-powerful god who impregnates a little female
> ape with himself (as the baby) so that he can kill
> himself later and ask why he abandoned himself, so
> he can damn and hold accountable a bunch of apes
> for his precieved grievences. And he loves them,
> but he really is jealous of these apes for not
> believing the word of the "infallible word" of the
> craziest of craziest, superstitious people in
> world from the dark ages all the way back (only
> the abrahamic religions). And if they don't
> beleive he will sentence them to burn in a lake of
> fire for not two minutes, two hours or two days,
> but for all freaking eternity while he sets around
> on his ass in a big puffy cloud for the rest of
> eternity and the true believers spend the rest of
> their eternity monotiously, banefully singing his
> praises. No wonder he made people for his "glory"
> -- seems a little egocentric ("don't say that he's
> a perfect bean" (sic)). Not to mention all the
> other implausible stuff -- and then you want to
> aruge that it makes more sense to believe this
> nonsense than all the other reality we have been
> observing for thousands of years! Are you nuts?
> You would have to be -- and dishonest too!
> But . . . for one thing, you can't prove a
> negative -- I know that religious people don't
> understand this concept because I've seen the
> arguments too many times on here. In fact, I
> remember Packman schooling you in some of the ways
> of logic, as a way of making sure you didn't come
> off looking goofy (it was a nice gesture from him)
> and you still couldn't get it.
> So from now on, I figure arguing with a christian
> (or mormon for that matter) is about as useful as
> trying to raise a bunch of brain-dead cropses from
> the grave! If you honestly believe it, then it’s
> beyond the point of honest discussion.

Sorry, I am not a believer. My point was that all believers are not literalists and many are educted in the sciences and the history of Christianity with all its warts. That seems to be something many posters here do not get. There are all sorts of varieties in Christianity and many have nothing to do with Fundamentalism. You might want to study up on it and read people like Borg, or the Jesus Seminar. You might learn something.Many Christians do not buy into any of the problems you mentioned.BTW, My point was that you are as guilty of stereotyping Christians as the poster you were responding to is at stereotyping atheists. Think about it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 01:24AM by bona dea.

Huh??

The Jesus myth doesn't hold up any better than the Moroni myth.

<<Have you investigated Jesus with the same vigor that you eventually investigated the Mormon claims?>>

Yep. And Buddha, and Vishnu, and Zeus, and Thor ad naseum. I was a believer before I applied that same vigor of investigation to the major religions.

<<How can you say that God does not exist?>>

Like this: "God does not exist."

WHAT YOU DONT BELIEVE IN THOR???? Off with his head!! :)..... i like my Sky Daddy....he loves me.... as long as i dont "tresspass" against him!! :)

Badger John Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is it with ex-mormons becoming atheists?
> Seems to be all too common, IMHO. It seems that
> your faith in Joseph Smith was a substitute for a
> true faith in God, and now that you know Joe Smith
> is a world class con, you are left with nothing?
> Have you investigated Jesus with the same vigor
> that you eventually investigated the Mormon
> claims? Were you an atheist before you were an ex
> mormon? How can you say that God does not exist?

In fact, yes, I did investigate Jesus and the bible with the same vigor with which I investigated mormonism. I deconstructed mormonism first, and remained a sort of generic christian. Then I realized that I couldn't make sense of the atonement. The more I read and studied, the less sense of christianity I could make.

So no, I wasn't an atheist before I was mormon and I never said god doesn't exist. I've said I don't believe in god. Asserting the existence of a thing is not the same thing as saying you don't [i]believe[/i] in the existence of a thing. God may very well exist, but I don't believe that it does.

Wow, people really believe Thanksgiving is a religious holiday. Unbelieveable.

So answer me this:

What religious event does Thanksgiving celebrate?

Take your time, think it over.

Easter celebrates the resurrection of Christ. Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ. There's a bunch of other holy holidays, but pretty much only Catholics acknowledge them.

So which event in Christianity, exactly, are we honoring by celebrating Thanksgiving? Why is there a turkey? (Are turkeys mentioned in the bible as the One True Bird to eat for dinner?) What are the rituals we participate in on Thanksgiving that have religious significance?

If you still think Thanksgiving is a religious holiday, you are sadly ignorant.

"What religious event does Thanksgiving celebrate?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States)

As President, on October 3, 1789, George Washington made the following proclamation and created the first Thanksgiving Day designated by the national government of the United States of America:

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God...

michaelm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "What religious event does Thanksgiving
> celebrate?"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_
> States)
>
> As President, on October 3, 1789, George
> Washington made the following proclamation and
> created the first Thanksgiving Day designated by
> the national government of the United States of
> America:
>
> Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to
> acknowledge the providence of Almighty God...

That is a secular event! George Washington was not a prophet, nor religious leader or figure of any kind.

Easter celebrates the resurrection of Christ.
Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ.
Thanksgiving celebrates... what part of religion?

Thanksgiving was historically a religious observation to give thanks to God.

michaelm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanksgiving was historically a religious
> observation to give thanks to God.

That doesn't make it a christian holiday. I can't believe some of you can be so obtuse as to not be able to distinguish between a secular holiday and a christian holiday.

Again. Which Christian event, specifically, does Thanksgiving celebrate?

If it was historically a religious observation to give thanks to god, might I point out that the America's indigenous peoples were mostly pagan in nature? And that many, many religions have a god, to which they can give thanks, without that god having to be christian.

That makes it a secular holiday.

:: slams head against brick wall ::

I'm not sure what doG has to do with Thanksgiving, but as an atheist I have gratutude for a great many things-like 'the goldy locks zone', 'the thin blue line', my planets magnetic feild, the N. American continent and all the time and vast forces it took to shape it into the geographically varied and resource rich place it is today.
Then there would be primordial soup and the wonderous marvel that is the evolutionary process, and the one in a google chance that a sperm and egg of an advanced species of primate came together to create the self-awareness I call me.
And of course, the chance to have another moment in the vastness of time and space with which to experience good food, good drink, and the company of those closest to my heart.
I'd be hard pressed to find any church that could top what I already have planned for my Turkey Day.

I didn't see it as an insult.

@Matt, if this was a question asked on this forum by one poster to the rest, I wouldn't consider it an insult either.

But in the original context that this was a question displayed on one of those signs in front of churches, I do take it as being very condescending, ignorant and holier-than-though. Like, "This is OUR holiday as Christians, you don't have the capacity as atheists to appreciate or enjoy it."

Of course, this is only a step above "nanny-nanny-booboo" in terms of maturity, so I do derive some Jerry-Springer style entertainment from this type of stupidity :)

See:
http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=iemanja&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=nROtTPTRNsGYnAf87aS6Bg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDkQsAQwAw&biw=1010&bih=757

She actually has a pretty good following in Brazil. I wouldn't be surprised if she weren't a bigger draw than St Joe de Mormon.

I find it nauseating that some think that the only thing we can give thanks to is a "God".

i am a mix of goldenRule/likin Jesus style/agnostic, hubby is nonreligious christian but our entire lives (his Methodist upbringing my Mormon upbringing) religion never entered into Thanksgiving.

make giant meal while listening to/watching parade/ eat giant meal, fall asleep because of either giant meal or listening to boring relatives, look at sale papers for Black Friday, stay up late watching movies together after relatives leave, sleep in on friday...that's what Thanksgiving is all about!!

My inlaws and my parents will be at our place for Thanksgiving.