I haven't seen this posted, my apologies if it was.

This is from the comments at mormonstories, To me, stories like these are the type of stories that surpass any mormon testimony. This is a true testimony of what the church is really about. It also implies what the real purpose and motivation of the Swedish meeting may have been.

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Jonathan Bautista July 22, 2013 at 11:08 am
Hi, I am a friend of Hans Mattsson. He was the stake president that set me apart to become a full time missionary. Birgitta assisted on cooking the food that was served during the reception after I was married to my wife in the Stockholm Temple.

Before and during my mission I developed doubts over some aspects of church practice, principles and history. It never felt good/true. After years of study I also attended the meeting with Elder Jensen and Bro. Turley. They both came across as very caring and genuine people. The big take away for me at this meeting was that the questions I was having were legit. The history that was troubling me were events that really happened.

My conviction is that feelings of satisfaction are based on expectation and attitude. Depending on your expectations of the claims made by the LDS church-you will accept or find problems coming across the difficult LDS history.

I too had meetings with stake presidents and bishops as well as stake representatives. . Overall however I was treated very well.

One comment of the meeting with E. Jensen and Bro Turley was that in many instances we were told that there wasn’t enough time to fully answer the concerns. The paradox was that the Area general authority took almost an hour at the end, sharing the Korihor story telling us not to disturb our friends in the church-and make a decision to stay or leave.

After the meeting I know that the leaders spent additional time in discussing on how to deal with the situation..so from a priority standpoint, providing additional light to some of the questions, wasn’t at the top of the list.

Overall I still appreciate the efforts made by LDS and E. Jensen and Bro Turley for travelling to Sweden and taking the time to listen to us.

For me it was valuable as it forced me to make a decision I haven’t regretted.

Me and my wife have removed our names from the LDS records. We have also removed our children’s name from the records.

After years of internal conflict, and sorrow I am finally at peace.

At the end of the day my reasons for being a member of the church was because I was raised to believe that the claims the LDS church makes are literally true. If they are not, I in fact felt like I was supporting a lie by being a member.

I still am very grateful for all the good the LDS church has brought to my life… But in order to have a credible claim to inner peace, I need to apply my life in harmony with my conscience and personal values-and for me the LDS history, practice and policy in to many aspects create inner conflict…

Thx John for all that you do-and thx Hans and Birgitta for friendship and the example of integrity that you are!

This was just unbelievable:
"One comment of the meeting with E. Jensen and Bro Turley was that in many instances we were told that there wasn’t enough time to fully answer the concerns. The paradox was that the Area general authority took almost an hour at the end, sharing the Korihor story telling us not to disturb our friends in the church-and make a decision to stay or leave."

That was the part that disturbed me most, that they wanted to identify the 'dissidents' and then either walk the line or get out. But most importantly, stop spreading the word, which is the reson I think they came to Sweden in the first place, because they were spreading the word.

What I find promising is that many of the bishops and SP present didn't know about the issues, maybe that will leave next.

That disturbed me too. The Korihor story is written to scare people from question and doubt. It's also ironically a story that portraits exactly some of the very things damning about mormonism. For example mormon leaders (Alma's) unwillingness and unability to answer simple questions, and fake lip service to the principle of separation of church and state.

This looks like him on FB. Seems like an amiable handsome young man. More power to him and his family for leaving the church. They have many happy years ahead of them, now that they are freed from the shackles of the church.

I bet he would be receptive to giving more of his story. I wonder if he could give us a clue at how many Swedish Mormons were approached and asked to resign.

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.bautista.359?fref=ts

He links to a petition asking the church to apologize to black people. (That's a slice of awesome.)

They came to quarantine the doubters away from the believers.

Thanks for posting this! It reveals the game plan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2013 12:07PM by crom.

Sounds just like a Boyd KKK Packer tactic.

I say hurray for the Swedes. It looks like a lot of them are having the courage to do the right thing and walk away from the cult.

Makes me proud to drive my Volvo.

Culturally it appears Swedish Mormons are not willing to play the game and keep issues with history quiet. Culturally they don't appear to be as deceitful and maybe hard for them to understand why facts on history and faith are to be hidden. They appear more direct in their dealings.
I come from Swedish roots and some of their ways have filtered down through my own side of the family. They are less impressed with leaders and they don't like lies. My experience anyway, just in my own family.

Top for Andrew

I listened to the audio of the meeting and I cannot believe how polite that group was with Jensen and Turley. I would have been outraged and insulted by their approach and lecturing about krist's way. J&T's responses were insulting.

I wish it was more clear if Mr. Bautista was given the ultimatum or if he did it at his own pace.

This is what it always boils down to when things start going south for a religion; An inquisition/reformation. Expect excommunications, or in this day, strongly forced resignations. (Excommunications are SUCH bad PR)

They'll still excommunicate if they have to, though. If they can't force them to either resign or shut up, then they're forced to excommunicate them, bad PR or no. Most TBMs won't listen to a word they say once they've been excommunicated.

Yes, this is where I saw that they rushed through the questions with non answers, claiming not enough time, so thy could threaten them or an hour.

Prove you can't disprove the Book of Mormon fraud. Then preach from the Book of Mormon.

I think Jensen and Turley showed false respect to the participants.

Thanks



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2013 12:26AM by gentlestrength.

They never intended to answer anyones questions.
They never intended to soothe or comfort anyone.
They never intended to even politely listen.

They intended to find out who asked questions they didn't like.
They intended to instill fear in anyone who has questions.
They intended to bully members out of the church that had questions.
They intended to do a clean sweep, and keep it all on the down low.

They NEVER intended to have this land on the front page of NYT.

May they be rewarded for their efforts.

They were trying to stomp out the ember before it became a blaze -- but instead it ended up on the cover of the "New York Times".

Who knows how many embers they stirred up with their heavy handedness.

They are losing the battle. The Internet is far too powerful. They never thought things would go this far, and they have no idea how bad it is still going to get.

They are like the communists leaders before the Berlin wall fell -- and when everyone suddenly went into the streets. The people were no longer afraid. The former leadership was vacant inside and everyone saw it at once.

There are too many problems. The church's story is springing leaks everywhere.

You are so right. I've had those same thoughts.

They cannot comprehend the power of the internet. They've underestimated it from the very beginning. They thought they could control it. They thought they could control the members like they always have.

They underestimated the power of anonymity. They underestimated the power of people around the world talking to each other about the ways they've been abused by the church. Some have been abused for many generations. The church has always been able to keep these stories quiet. They've always been able to keep the members from congregating and talking to each other.

The internet is filling a very strong need that members have to talk about their experiences with the church. For the first time in history they can do it on a massive scale and be anon. while talking. The church has put millions into trying to control it, but they can't.

Finally! The members can talk and tell all. All of the stories that have piled up for generations. The internet seems to be flooded with the used and abused of mormonism. The glory days of the mormon church are over. I hope they enjoy their mall.

A Anon

You mention heavy handedness, but am I right in thinking you would feel the term "ham handedness" would be better? I'm not saying it's a necessary change, but these insulting buffoons just aren't getting it right - so I thought I would offer it up.

Isn't all this stuff amazing? I wonder how long tscc thinks they can get away with threatening to toss out honest, thinking people, before people just toss it all in anyway?

It must have been very hard for so many, but as this young man said, he at last has inner peace. I couldn' agree more, that that is worth whatever price you have to pay for it!!

Good on the SWEDES!!!

The Mormon leaders flew all the way to Sweden but didn't have time to answer the questions......

That was following L. Tom Perry flying all the way to Sweden, with all the answers on a document in his briefcase, but didn't have the time to show it to them....

The document in the briefcase is classic :)

I guess Mormons are supposed to take it on faith because if he showed them they wouldn't need Faith?

And if they ask about it then they are asking for a sign?

The document in the briefcase proves the corruption of the Mormon leaders. Why not print it and hand it out in the beginning of the meeting?

The document in the brief case was taken up to heaven by angel Moroni and is sitting right next to the gold plates.

Wouldn't I say something very appropriate to them reflecting my anger & resentment?
(I guess I'm not a very forgiving person)