Frequent poster here. Going anon so this dude doesn't figure out my handle if he were to look...


Hey, *******

I also saw that article in the New York Times that you posted a little while ago. I also like John Dehlin and I frequent the "mormon stories" podcast now and then. I think it is important to be both intellectually and spiritually honest with myself. I have a degree in biology and have studied evolution and other topics in science with rigor and enthusiasm. I love the gospel as revealed in mormonism, but I have an issue with church culture and presentation of church history.

I think it's silly that a lot of members don't know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist and would be offended by it, yet are perfectly fine accepting Brigham Young (notoriously a polygamist) as a prophet - as well as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I was pleased to see the removal of the word "the" in the introduction of the Book of Mormon: "It is a record of God’s dealings with [the] ancient inhabitants of the Americas".

There have been other steps that I have noticed that show progression toward intellectual honesty. I think we (the church) need to teach the truth, admits faults, and make information readily available to questioning members.

Anyway, the reason I am writing this is because I saw this article and I agree with much of what is said. I'm not sure where you stand with the church, but I thought you might enjoy it as well. I thought I should "introduce" my position a little so you know my intentions are not to chastise, convert, or bring you back; rather, I understand some of your reasons for leaving. Please, don't feel a need to explain your position to me, I'm not prying. I just thought of you when I read this because you had posted about that NYT article.
Hope everything is good.

http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/07/23/reading-as-response-an-introduction-courtesy-of-byu-studies/

Funny thing is, he is the 3rd Mormon who has privately contacted me regarding the NY Times article. People are starting to see the light. I think this guy is only hanging on because of family and social pressures. Sad. He's a decent fellow, albeit totally deluded. Mormonism is the WORST.

Interesting response. I think there may be a lot of TBMs that are starting to put out some sort of Unitarian vibe, at least for their public face.

I've read the "who cares and/or you should have known Joseph smith was a polygamist" line many times over the past few days. Maybe, or maybe not. However, I never knew about polyandry until Rough Stone Rolling. That was most definitely not common knowledge and I say it is still a non public "fit of history" that is incredibly damning.

Hmm. It sounds like he's pretty afraid of being truly intellectually honest with himself. However, at least he was respectful and not pushy. More and more Mormons seem to at least be admitting that church culture, if not the actual "doctrines" of the church, has a lot of problems. Some people are for revolution, some people are for reform, as with all things. As long as people are moving towards leaving or at least reducing the number of people who are hurt by Mormonism through dogma and prejudice, I'm happy about it.

I think the excuse of "God picks imperfect vessels to be his prophets" gets stretched reeeeally thin when all the J. Smith Jr. stuff comes out, and besides, the history of prophets is more about being reluctant IIRC; JS was not only eager to be a prophet, he was receiving custom-made revelations to fit his schemes.

As the Church Lady might say: "How conveeeenient..."

Check out the link. Pretty sane response to the situation.

I would bet the Mormon leaders will not follow the sane approach and will continue hiding their history and doctrines and will continue to ask their members to hide their history and doctrines and not learn about their history and doctrines.

If those arrogant poster that claim they know the true history keep posting that the history is there for all to know, why don't people like Mattson and me know this as we were raised up Mormon, my reply will be.

"Why are you disobeying your leaders, they've told you to only study Church approved literature and use the "Holy Ghost" to ignore the horrible and sinful parts."

WHAT "gospel" revealed in Mormonism? What exactly do they think is unique to Mormonism? And why do they think that when no one ever actually admits to the doctrines in Mormonism?

Interesting response...much better than the shrill TBM stuff I normally see. More honest, at least. Possible the shelf is getting heavy?

They are happy that the church is finally making sense of all these strange beliefs and teachings, because now they can go on being members. Every year the church teaches less of what they seriously taught the year before. People who aren't "old" won't even know the history, and if and when they do find out, they'll just say, "Well, that was back then and the modern prophets have changed with the times. Aren't we blessed to be in such a wonderful church."

Yeah, I saw a TBM friend of mine post this same article to FB a day after I posted the NY Times article.

I don't know if it was coincidence or what, but I hardly see that article as apologetic. BCC seems to be near the line of "apostate" with many of their articles. They certainly are more open minded and discuss issues that most TBM's don't dare.

I will tell you this in Sweden and probly in other countries that don't have english as their native language the church is even less open about it's history. Especially prior to the internet being available to everyone.

I also think it's very unfortunate that the NY Times article doesn't go more in to details when you listen to Hans in the mormon stories podcast you realize it's a lot deeper than Joseph Smith practicing polygamy. As at first glans that's really easy gor a TBM to brush off.

Several commenters on the article got the transcript on there as well as some other key and critical issues. Obviously English only, but there was an effort, mostly successful to get a lot of key deceptions by the Mormon church into the comment section.

Of course it varies, but it would be interesting to determine which ones were the most impactful in general.

Polyandry seems upsetting to most all, along with this for me lying to Europeans about the practice, especially young women that asked directly about polygamy prior to coming (John Taylor's Lying for The Lord)

As a former missionary I was long gone, but furious that they had me running around telling the sanitized First Vision story

Book of Abraham is clearly key, but doesn't seem universally impactful

They try to belittle people like Hans Mattsson for having a simple faith and not knowing issues he should. They have always known these issues and are still firm in their testimonies.

Let me then make 2 points:-

1. Where did they get their information from? Not from approved church sources by their own admission. So, they did not follow the counsel of the prophet. Hans, however, was only aware of these issues as discussed in the 'correlated' approved materials of the church i.e. the false versions. He only found out the truth when confronting leaders with real concerns that they could not address, and going to the internet to do his own research.

2. If these arrogant TBMs, so dismissive of a courageous Hans Mattsson,proudly state they have always been aware of the issues, why are they so unintelligent as to not arrive at the conclusion that Joseph lied repeatedly and made up the whole hogwash.

Therefore, in my view, these arrogant judges are either disobedient regarding the counsel of the church (rebellious) or unable to arrive at the right and honest conclusion. They are either disobedient or lack integrity or both.

The things revealed in Mormonism:

This is a meaningless statement

I don't want to know your position:

Because I might lose my testimony

I don't like the culture:

News flash the culture is the way it is because of doctrine. Identify some you don't like about the culture and you can be sure to find dozens of talks by Prophets, Apostles, lesson in various manuals that all support the culture.

I also keep hearing people say well it makes me happy. The problem with that is that there are a lot of people that aren't happy in the church and they stay because a bunch of people keep saying it's TRUE, when they actually know it's not. Selfish SOBs!!!

I recognize your name from the comments section of the NY Times, if it is the same DJ you were tearing it up! Well done.

One of my friends posted a link to the article on facebook. I don't go on there much right now so there may have been others who have. But in response to the link one friend wrote, "haven't they read the old testament?!"...

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2013 04:34AM by goldenrule.