This came up on another thread, that tbms are now saying they know about polyandry, boa, etc and it doesn't bother them so exmos should just shut up about it already. I had a funny fb exchange with a tbm who made this claim. It started with a family member posting about js marriages to underage girls. Tbm gets on and says that it may surprise you (family member), but most mormons know about this and don't care. Then he bears his testimony. He was really condescending. I replied and said that I was never taught about these women, and that they didn't deserve to be swept under the rug. I said that they deserved as much recognition as Emma does. Tbm says that they are not swept under the rug and everyone knows about them. My next response was to suggest that I go to church and give a talk about js polygamous wives or perhaps a lesson in sharing time. At that point, the tbm had to backpedal. He told me it would be inappropriate to teach this in church or primary. I asked why it would inappropriate since according to him, everyone knows anyway and it doesn't bother them. He said that Catholic priests don't talk about the sex abuse scandal in Mass and that there are really bad things going on in this world that deserve our attention more like people having sex and doing drugs. I am not kidding, that is actually what he said. He also said he didn't care what happened 200 years ago. Anway, i told him i thought it was interesting that he is comparing js underage marriages to catholic clergy sex abuse and that he thought the worst things going on in our world were sex and drugs. He is basically calling js abusive, which is hilarious. After that he really had nothing to say other than to try to bear his testimony again. I seriously doubt he will try to use the old "i already know about that" excuse in the near future.

This isn't about what bothers TBMs.

It's about our higher standards and what bothers us.

Very true, but i think that this exchange just proves that they are bothered by these things. Otherwise, there is no reason not to talk about these issues openly. Tbms want us to shut up and go away, that is why they say they don't care.

When I was a TBM, I had an awareness of many of these things. I may even have used these same tired arguments, but I hadn't taken the time think about the deeper implications of polygamy, archeological BoM problems, or how truly disturbing the endowment ceremony was. I wouldn't go there because I was an expert at thought stopping.

That's what bearing your testimony is; it's a thought-stopping technique! In church they always said it was the one thing no one could argue with, and the bearing of it was encouraged. As a TBM, I believed that bearing my testimony was a guaranteed way to win any argument with a skeptic and impress upon them the truly deep and beautiful aspects of my faith.

Now that I'm out, I can see that all bearing my testimony did was to make me look brainwashed to those outside of Mormonism while keeping me from putting too much stock into what other, thoughtful people, told me. It was a thought-stopping exercise, pure and simple. Whoever came up with this method of countering LDS critics really knew what they were doing! It may not convince anyone outside of the religion, but it makes critical thinking down right impossible for the testimony bearing individual.

sstone Wrote:
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> When I was a TBM, I had an awareness of many of
> these things. I may even have used these same
> tired arguments, but I hadn't taken the time think
> about the deeper implications of polygamy,
> archeological BoM problems, or how truly
> disturbing the endowment ceremony was. I wouldn't
> go there because I was an expert at thought
> stopping.
>
> That's what bearing your testimony is; it's a
> thought-stopping technique! In church they always
> said it was the one thing no one could argue with,
> and the bearing of it was encouraged. As a TBM, I
> believed that bearing my testimony was a
> guaranteed way to win any argument with a skeptic
> and impress upon them the truly deep and beautiful
> aspects of my faith.
>
> Now that I'm out, I can see that all bearing my
> testimony did was to make me look brainwashed to
> those outside of Mormonism while keeping me from
> putting too much stock into what other, thoughtful
> people, told me. It was a thought-stopping
> exercise, pure and simple. Whoever came up with
> this method of countering LDS critics really knew
> what they were doing! It may not convince anyone
> outside of the religion, but it makes critical
> thinking down right impossible for the testimony
> bearing individual.


You've nailed it - thought stopping describes it perfectly.

I thought I knew the issues when I was still a TBM, but I didn't think they were real. I thought that blood atonements were a rumour and didn't really happen. I thought that the marriages to other women were just spiritual marriages and weren't ever consummated.

I just thought that the "issues" were actually lies, misunderstandings and misconceptions.

This is exactly what I thought. I told myself that I would stay in the church unless and until I found irrefutable proof of one tough issue. Then I found it, so I left.

There is actually a youtube video where a Mormon Apologist uses this technique, and then an exmormon totally destroys that argument. The exmormon uses actual Mormon sources to show that they speak about these things like once a decade really briefly. Then he goes on to show all the pictures and articles which minimizes these things. It is a good video.

Anyway this is a common defense by those in Mormon leadership.

emma Wrote:
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> He also said he didn't care what happened 200 years ago.


If TBMs don't care what happened 200 years ago, then I guess we can finally quit hearing about the pioneers, persecution, the martyrdom of Joseph Smith and quite a few other partially true topics.

If the church has lied or misled people or distorted its history, if the church is false, if Joseph Smith was a charlatan - it really does matter.

It means there is no reason for you to:

*give 10% of your income to the church
*pretend that men have the priesthood
*obey the leadership of the church
*give up two years of your life for a mission
*waste most of every Sunday in church
*avoid restaurants, movies and stores on Sundays
*marry too young
*have more children than you want or can afford
*avoid coffee, tea and alcohol
*wear uncomfortable underclothes
*accept callings you haven't any interest in
*welcome home teachers into your home
*believe a Patriarchal Blessing (the "horoscope for Mormons")
*submit to intrusive interviews about your beliefs

And so on.

I'd bet it's a road they're not comfortably walking.... as it allows for further conversation and airing their dirty laundry to the public. While they claim it may be okay for them, most everybody else will find those "little flecks" significant and not so easily tossed aside.

"Oh, yeah, I've known all about it, the church hasn't hidden it, you can find it here." Go for it. Packer's probably already rolling and not even in the grave yet.

Whenever they say it, call bull-sh$% on them. Ask them how many wives of Joseph Smith were married to other men. How many were under 18. Give me the story of one of the wives. Tell me where they found the lost papyri. ASK them questions. This will do one of two things...they will not know the answers and you'll "win the arguement" or they'll have TO LOOK IT UP! And then they may be "on their way out"!

TBM's "knowing about" the issues is akin to someone reading a blurb in the newspaper about a trial versus someone who actually sat on the trial as a jury member.

TBM's only know the issues at a very basic, superficial level. They don't know all the details and arguments. Not enough to make an informed, unbiased decision anyway.

"He always has an excuse, some reason, for things which should have been done right in the first place."

I expect more from God's one and only true and living church claiming prophets, seers, and revelators at the helm. These "tough issues" are reason enough to leave it.

as a nevermo Catholic attending BYU. I distinctly recall sessions around the dinner table in the Cannon center where one after the other my TBM friends would take turns criticizing the Catholic church; quite literally mocking, denigrating and making fun of things that occurred in its history and the doctrines they deemed "ridiculous". If I only knew then what I know now....

and engage them in a discussion of the implications of all these things "they already knew". "Really? You already knew about such and such? Well then, it makes Joe a pervert doesn't it?"

Their only choice now is to admit the "antis" have been right all along and the only basis for their faith is their own, faulty, subjective "burning in the bosom".

I am sorry about that. Mormons whine about people persecuting them all the time. I remember it was especially bad during last year's election. They don't see how hypocritical it is since they badmouth catholics and or christians all the time.

Walking on Calle Andrade in Calexico, CA on the way to my missionary apartment, I distinctly remember thinking to myself: "I have debunked every single piece of anti-mormon propaganda that's out there."

It's humbling to think I had only been exposed to the tip of the iceberg, and it helps me to realize that mormons who say they've "heard it all" haven't heard anything yet..

Yeah. I was talking to a former TBM friend of mine, now an exmo. Somehow the subject of the end days of JS came up, and I mentioned the printing press and William Law's wife. She didn't know what I was talking about. We discovered she never knew why JS was arrested in the first place, she'd always attributed it to generalized anti-mo persecution. The facts shocked her, though it was JS pedophilia that helped drive her out in the first place--so she didn't have a very high opinion of JS at that point anyway. That JS tried to shoot his way out of jail and killed two people made her shake her head. Did it ever stop getting worse? Is there a bottom to the lies and the cover-ups she had so sincerely believed and sacrificed so much for? The combination of anger and impotence she feels at the way TSSC mistreated her is profound. And humbling. When she trusts herself to KNOW something, does she really know it, or is someone making a gigantic fool out of her?

"When she really trusts herself to KNOW something, does she really know it, or is someone making a gigantic fool out of her?"

I think that's the perfect one sentence question to ask a Mormon who claims they already know about these things.

They need to be left with a thought that overrides the thought stopping process. They will shut down if you give them details. A question that's personal and hits home is a good way to do that.

Nobody, not even the truest, bluest, TBM wants to be made a fool of. They may just be motivated to find out if they're being played for the fool or not. After all 9 million ex mormons can't be wrong! (I made that number up, it works for them.)