Extract from one of Kay's blogs (I wholeheartedly concur, thanks Kay, we love you):-

"Mormonism will also die. Like the political system that supported the Berlin wall that fell, Mormonism is being exposed for its corruption and will also deconstruct. It is corrupt to its core-- its misrepresentation of its own history, its calculated and manipulative theology, its racism, sexism and active homophobia--all these negative belief systems are being exposed by truth-seekers of the information age. Mormonism will implode. It is just a matter of time."

For more of her thrilling analysis see http://anamericanfraud.blogspot.com/

Tom Phillips

You know, Kay's book didn't really do anything for me. I wanted to like it. It suffers a lot, and it doesn't really do its readers that many favors.

And while Mormonism certainly isn't true, I find that I wouldn't want Kay prosecuting the case, were it that type of situation.

It's certainly my opinion, and I'll own it.

I suppose I'm chiming in to express that by starting a thread that invokes Kay's opinion, I'm taken right back to her strange book, and my low opinion of it. Why does Kay's pronouncement... er, perhaps prophecy? that 'Mormonism will implode' hold any water?

Mormonism is changing, and it will continue changing - perhaps dramatically and quickly in some instances - until it reaches another plateau of complicit vanilla acceptability amongst the majority of its practitioners.

It isn't an analog to the political system that supported the Berlin wall. It doesn't matter nearly enough. Mormonism is a non-thought to humanity. Its insignificance is only overshadowed by the willingness of the gullible few who will always exist to support it.

We've only to wait for the beginning of the Mormon Extremist movement. That, folks, will make the extremists of Islam look like they were doing it wrong.

I guess this is the quote that stood out to me:-

"It is corrupt to its core-- its misrepresentation of its own history, its calculated and manipulative theology, its racism, sexism and active homophobia--all these negative belief systems are being exposed by truth-seekers of the information age. Mormonism will implode. It is just a matter of time."

I just thought the recent emphasis on the Swedish Fireside with their non answers and threats of excommunication are tearing down the 'false wall' they have erected. They are being exposed.

Regarding an actual lawsuit, that will be coming soon.

I'm interested to hear about the lawsuit. Is there more info on what to expect with this?

I am sticking with October for the announcement and just ask you to be patient.

It could have gone quicker but 'moremoney' was needed and I am mainly financing it personally.

I will be at the conference and look forward to hearing everything you have to say!

But this isn't new. Mormonism has always been exposed. It has never been left unchallenged. There has never been a time that Mormonism existed that popular writers and journalists as well as disaffected former members haven't excoriated the religion and exposed it to everybody they could.

People like to cite the internet as some sort of game changer within Mormonism, but that ignores the history of the organization and how well it has dealt with outside criticism and past exoduses of members. This kind of thinking is born out of excitement over new technology, not intelligent analysis, and I think that Burningham, at some level, is playing off of that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2013 11:21AM by snb.

I think you underestimate the power of the Internet. Yes, it's true that all the information I needed was within reach while growing up in the church. But by the time I would have gotten to Volume 10 of The Journal of Discourses, I'm pretty sure that the horrible quote from Brigham Young would have gone right past my glazed eyes.

The Internet is instant research. To do research on my own church in a library would have put me in touch with a lot of church resources, would have taken years, would have involved the occasional "anti" piece of literature, and would have probably bored me to tears.

Remember that the leaders of the church are also that concerned over the Internet.

I'm not trying by any means to be rude or to flame you, but even if you weren't willing to read through the discourses, other people were. When you are passionate about something nothing like that will stop you.

For almost two centuries the dryness of church material didn't stop people from reading or exposing Mormonism. Also, and this is kind of besides the point, instant research (interesting term) rarely produces understanding of any kind. You missed a lot of exmormon gold and actual understanding of the issue by not reading that quote in context. It wouldn't have taken you years at all.

Too many people overestimate the power of the internet. Church leaders fall into the same trap and I wouldn't consider them critical thinkers or paragons of logic.

You make a good point. But it does leave the question, why is TSCC experiencing the biggest wave of defection since Kirtland?

Tom,

The reason mormonism is walking with a limp is because of people like you (and others here - and sweden). To me, it's walking dead right now. I compare it to what I experienced in the 1980's - mormons able to shut down a conversation by simply calling me a liar, tscc growing significantly while its lies went unchallenged.

Today, the conversation is different. Mormons are forced - forced - to hear the issues or hide themselves from the comment sections of newspapers. They are in retreat or on the defensive. To me, that is death.

The more people go public with their identity, the easier it gets for others to leave. So, it limps along as an meaningless organization with a few million members. So what? The door is opening wider every day.

snb - I think you could go back to the comparison about the Berlin Wall and the situation in East Germany. That was always bad. Most people in the world didn't want to live like the East Germans. The problems were pretty obvious to most people. Some escaped but most were stuck. It wasn't until certain things happened that the system all came apart.

The internet is like whatever political forces undermined the East German regime. You are right that Mormonism, like communism, has always had problems, detractors, been known to be bad for most people. But in spite of all of that, some people are still trapped. I agree with you that some people overestimate the power of the internet because the "wall" of peoples' stubborn need to believe they are superior and know the answers to the mysteries of the universe. If they don't want to hear - they won't and Mormonism has brilliantly adapted to tell people what they do want to hear, rather than the truth. This is the biggest sticking point - the best defense they have against the internet and truth. Peoples' pride and the church's ability to manipulate that pride to get what they want.

Nevertheless, the internet is what got me out. I wasn't even looking for problems with Mormonism when I got gobsmacked by it. If enough people, one family at a time, get freed by the internet, the church may not die but all that will be left are the most fanatical, blind, needy folks. So it may live on, but severely handicapped. And that's OK too, as long as they leave me alone.

I am not sure I agree with the comparison, but I like how you made it all fit. :)

That is a really good question. Maybe someone with a better idea of the scope of apostasy in those days could answer it. I'm not sure of the specific numbers back then.

Oh the qoute is golden..priceless. I may have it tatooed on my arm. Tom, Hans, Kay - we love you guys. Tom keep up the great work. You are my hero.

Please clarify. A possible or alleged upcoming lawsuit by Kay Burningham, or the Swedish dissidents?

"Mormonism is changing, and it will continue changing - perhaps dramatically and quickly in some instances - until it reaches another plateau of complicit vanilla acceptability amongst the majority of its practitioners."

When you talk about the majority of its practitioners, I agree. But the "majority of practitioners" excludes those who left. More have left than have stayed. So, the majority of practitioners is a minority.

The majority of practitioners at any given time may accept changes or answers, but as people slough off the majority becomes more meaningless over time. TSCC does not have the grip over members it used to have. So, the prophesy that it will implode - well, it has somewhat. What is going to stop the biggest apostasy since Kirtland?

I agree with the quote.

I have had the same thoughts as Kay whether everything else she says is correct or not I don't know since I haven't read it.

but Mormonism -- as practised by the polygamous/Adam is God/ United Order/fundamentalist groups -- will go on.

If you’re waiting for the LDS church to die, don’t hold your breath. Yes, the days of rapid growth are long gone, and real membership is likely in decline, but it’s not going away anytime soon. It’s naïve to think that facts (no matter how compelling) are going to change all active Mormon’s deep seated beliefs.

People who believe that the moon landing was faked, or that the holocaust was a lie, don’t get dissuaded by facts. Actually just the opposite is a more common reaction. When people who believe in conspiracy theories are shown evidence that contradicts their beliefs, they’re usually more committed to their beliefs. It’s a strange manifestation of human nature that when people dig in their heels, they’ll embrace the one piece of evidence that supports their view, and ignore the 99 pieces of evidence that challenge that view.

+1

I agree with this.

I disagree...as has been referred to many times, Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the First Quorum of the Seventy showed up at a religious studies class at Utah State University in Logan, Utah in late 2011. He openly admitted that attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years, i.e. not since the 1837 failure of the Church-owned Kirtland Safety Society Bank in Kirtland, Ohio, have such a high percentage of Mormons left the church.

You'll be surprised. This is just the beginning of the end.

Yeah, but we are taking one man's general comment. What did he REALLY mean? An exodus of 10k, 100k, 1,000k each year? We don't have any hard stats, and from I can, sure there's more people leaving, but there's also just as many or more die in the wool members who keep popping out babies. The church was exponentially growing just a couple of decades ago, so anything less than that could be considered troublesome for Jenson, it hardly means the end is in sight for the Morg.

True...but I think we need to look at the totality of the evidence, circumstantial as it may be.
*Jensens Statements
*Increased in number of ex-mo blogs, traffic, cites, etc.
*Actual observations of activity/retention rates around the world.
*Closure of missions world wide.
*Lack of success of PR campaigns
*Probability of a PR night mare occuring
*3rd Q of 70 members coming out (surely more to come)

During the Kirstland period, I believe there close to 30% membership loss due to apostacy..so if we take Jensens statements litterally, well..I dunno.

Mormonism requires a lot of sacrifice, in time and money. Unless someone is a true believer, they will eventually throw their hands up in the air and decide the sacrifice is to worth it, or they become MINOs. The church can't survive without TBMs.

A few more scandals like Paul Dunn and Mark Hofmann, and another misstep like Prop 8, and it will crumple like a cheap umbrella. It is already hemorrhaging members.

What do you think are the odds that there will be a major financial scandal in the next 30 years? I think it is almost a sure thing.

The young people who are going on missions and even those who are back from missions, marrying, having families and filling important callings don't know who Paul Dunn and Mark Hoffman are. It will take another high profile scandal to get their attention, but I'm not sure that they will react anymore than my generation did when the scandals you mentioned occurred.

When you are in the thick of thin things, you don't have time for research. The church keeps people too busy with nonsense to actually study the doctrine, the history, or even the current events of TSCC.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> A few more scandals like Paul Dunn and Mark
> Hofmann, and another misstep like Prop 8, and it
> will crumple like a cheap umbrella. It is already
> hemorrhaging members.
>
> What do you think are the odds that there will be
> a major financial scandal in the next 30 years? I
> think it is almost a sure thing.


Mormonism has a get-out-of-jail-free card for scandals involving one or two even senior leaders: They were acting as men, they are imperfect.

Barring a major scandal involving multiple members of the Q12 or FP, I don't think anything changes much.

I think they are in a slow steady decline. Oh how I wish I could see it fold up, but I doubt any of us will.

All I really hope for is constant humiliation and watching the so-called "Brethren" react in their predictable fashion of tightening the wagons and kraal, bringing out more guns, and tightening the control even more over their faithful. I want to see the control tightened so much that their faithful begin to pop.

It will constitute a sort of collapse, but not one that the faithful will consider a collapse. Mostly there will just be a sort of melt-down for which the faithful will be blamed. More temples will have to be built, more lies told. The church has painted itself into a corner on this one, so there is no other way.

I've often thought that in my lifetime I would see the church basically become a cultural thing in the Intermountain West. There will always be Mormons because there is enough of a heritage to be proud of if you're from that area. The foundation of the modern state of Utah is Mormonism. But anywhere else? Nah.

I don't see a sudden death. But a slow one, yes. How slow? A hundred years and all that will be left are a few scattered congregations. In a hundred years alot of thinking will be different and the results of that will be manifest everywhere not just in Mormon land. Organized religion, as we know it today, will consist of shrines, museums, national historical markers, but empty on Sunday. There will be spirituality, and some new groups, but by and large people will be skeptical to hostile towards any religion. Mormonism will exist, but the numbers will be in the hundreds of thousands, not millions.

As much as I would love to see the LDS Church collapse and cease to exist, I just don't see it happening. The Catholic Church has some aspects of its past that are rather sordid. It could be argued that the Catholic Church is based on fraud, though certainly Mormonism's fraud is much more blatant and easily proven. But the Catholic Church continues to grow, and it's percentage of world population has remained rather constant.

I see a continued slowing of growth and eventual decline in LDS Church membership, if that hasn't started already. But I think the decline will be gradual and could last hundreds of years.

I love the Berlin wall comparison because that is the situation I would want. That came about because the world had changed, had moved ahead.

The world is still changing, and even if the Mormon church is not crumbled by sledge hammers with people grabbing bits for souvenirs, an increasingly enlightened world with its access to information is not going to allow the Mormon church leaders to continuer their lies and cover-ups. The rise of atheism is certainly a marker of this trend.

The 'saints' are going to have to have more gaul than ever in order to market their gullibility as faith. They will need to become more extreme, forcing them to be more cultish than they already are, and ultimately ending up a ridiculous
curiosity to the educated of the world.

If there is any kind of lawsuit, I sincerely hope it is a credible challenge of the Mormon tax exemption status.

sic transit gloria

It took a world of political maneuvering, intense media pressure and change in public perception to get the Soviet Union to allow the wall to be torn down and it took a couple of years to get the government to dissolve (sort of, Old Russia is still very much alive, the culture never really went away).

Mormonism doesn't merit this kind of response. It is also much smaller. I'm not sure that this is an honest comparison and not just well meaning hyperbole.

If we are waiting for Mormonism to go away I think we'll be sorely disappointed. It'll be here far longer than we will.

I enjoyed Kay's book. It was an interesting perspective, and had lots of facts about the government and the church being in bed together in Utah. I love that quote, anointedone! I think the church is now dying, and it's beautiful to watch from the outside.

I read her book. Good read and surprisingly paralleled many of my experiences, times and places.

I am basing my remarks on the quote only.

She apparently doesn't understand the generational nature of the religion nor the value of the beliefs by faith and how powerful they are.

If what she claims about Mormonism is likely to happen, so will many other much larger religions! People who demand religion be factual, in some physical manner, miss the point of the faith.

I find her analysis rather humorous, actually.

How can you make your assumption of what she does/does not understand on the basis of her "qoute only." She may very well have a very thorough understand of the generational nature of TSCC, etc.

What makes mormonism difference is the blantant fraud and abuse of it's members. True, there are a few others out there that will fall too.

Susie you say "People who demand religion be factual, in some physical manner, miss the point of the faith."

The whole point of Mormonism is its claim to be factual, based on truth claims of events that actually happened and people that actually lived (Nephites and Lamanites).

Religion or faith per se do not have to be based on fact, so they can live longer than an obviously falsifiable set of doctrines and history.

In the long term I think all religions will diminish and possibly die. Just as we no longer give credence to Zeus etc. there will eventually come a time when Chrsitianity etc. will be turned into humanitarian and community charitable enterprises. Doing good for the sake of doing good, not because some imaginary being commanded it.

But is it in human nature to let religion die?

I would say, no.

People like to believe in something greater than themselves. They like to think that if they follow a certain set of divinely inspired rules, that a supernatural force will guarantee their safety and happiness.

When push comes to shove, facts and historical integrity have nothing to do with it!

Just look at how quick people on this board want to predict the demise of Mormonism. We are all more prone to predict things that are friendly to our world view. When I was a Mormon, I thought the BoM would one day flood the earth. Mormonism was destined for success because God was at its head.

Now that I'm a non-believer, I see the same kind of certainty in some of those who have left the church. They think Mormonism will implode because it is a fraud, and because this is becoming more and more obvious to the general public. This last part may be true, but religions don't rise and fall on the number of skeletons they happen to be hiding in the basement.

I mean, look at the Catholics. They are the big cheese in the Christian world, and they have A LOT of skeletons!

So, anyway, to sum up: religion may very well be in a gradual decline in the modern world. But I wouldn't bet on it imploding anytime soon.