When I was on my mission I had a couple of companions that had cassette tapes from TGM (I hope I got the name right). I really don't remember too many facts from them except that I had the impression that if you looked into JS life you would only feel the church was soooo twoo.

So I got back from the mish and started to look into JS life and it wasn't pretty. This was using church sources as well. The con-man came through too strong.

I was curious if anyone remembered these tapes and if you could remember anything that was on them that could have been considered reality or if they were complete fabrication beginning to end.

I hadn't even thought about those tapes. I had a few companions with them. I remember we listened to them on a long drive to Calgary one day, and I was just blown away with how great JS was and amazed at the research TGM had done. You come away with the impression that the more you dig into JS the better he gets.

But looking back with what I know now, how the hell did this genius BYU scholar, after all that research, still buy into this crap!? Or are they paying him off, what's going on!? you don't do that much research on JS and read in that many journals without seeing the bigger picture. Or, maybe he just said his prayers and read his scriptures and all them devil voices in his head just went away!?

Frightened Inmate #2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had a few companions with them. I remember we listened
> to them on a long drive to Calgary one day

Looks like we labored in the same field. It was the Alberta-Saskatchewan Mission when I was there in the early '70s.

BYU church "history" professors are de facto paid apologists for the church, are they not? People have argued with me in the past over this, stating, for instance, that Daniel Peterson is not a "paid apologist," but a professor of Islamic studies at BYU--to which I say, "Right. A paid apologist." Any scholarly studies these professors undertake at BYU must witness of the truthfulness of the LDS church, BoM, etc., requiring apologist-style devotion over pursuit of raw truth. Raw truth is bad news for Mormons.

He wrote a book about B. H. Roberts that painted a completely erroneous picture- declared that Roberts never doubted for a minute about the authenticity of the BoM or Mormonism in general. My parents gave me a copy. I threw it in the trash.

I read that book. If I recall correctly, Madsen said that he'd like to review Book of Mormon Studies, Roberts' (then) unpublished book outlining the problems with LDS scripture, but that doing so would "serve no scholarly purpose." It was stunning at the time and even more ridiculous now that I've read BOMS and learned a lot more about Roberts!

There are some Youtube videos of Madsen speaking in that soporific tone of voice that the apostles use in conference. Truman was not an academic, nor a follower of truth. He was a BYU professor and therefore the religious equivalent of a hired thug.

That's correct. He wrote that analysis of BOM Studies "would serve no scholarly purpose." I have not forgotten that phrase in decades.

What a mendacious man, Madsen was!

I bought the CDs as soon as I got home from the mission! I had a companion that showed me that you could play the Braveheart soundtrack that would align with his speaking if you started it just right... I've been thinking about going back and listening to them again to see where I can find the holes and fill them in.

Irrational hero worship.

I would expect this kind of sloppy work from a disciple of kierkegaard. Bam!

I bought every story hook line and sinker!

I actually heard a rumor/story about how in Madsen's PB it was foretold he'd actually become an apostle. Anyone else hear that?

I guess if you had that in your PB, you'd probably be a staunch defender of TSCC.

Spenny told Quinn he'd be an apostle one day. But Boyd didn't get the memo.

It will all work out in the millennium.

Besides. One can be an apostle without being in the 12.

Likewise one can be in the first presidency without being an apostle.

Yah, if you want to see just how full of CRAP that Madsen really is then just watch this video clip where he uses..... all these nearly endless words and superlative terms .... trying to give a holy MORmON *explanation* for what is really Joe Smith's insistence on screwing every female around in the name of god as
an excuse, when just saying that Joe was a pervert would have been so much shorter, and much more concise as well as ACCURATE!

Truman sure makes all this early MORmON screwing around sound very proper..... IF a person can just completely ignore the most glaring basic facts and totally discount how sick, twisted and tragic that the situation really was, IF a person is a real MORmON!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmhjgaB2Hi8



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 12:17AM by lucky.

TGM is truly nauseating in his revisions of polygamy, polyandry, and pedophilia related to JS

This guy drank an entire drum of the Kool Aid

What an asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With that phony, slow, Moron Cadence

Anyone else remember these?

yah, I heard the tapes that you are talking about on my mission.
Sorry to say, as the brainless TBM I was at that time I thought they were pretty good.

I think TGM's DVD set "On Sacred Ground" is just the last iteration of TGM's insane apologetics and defense of PERVERT Joe Smith.

Oh man, I LOVED those tapes. I must have listened to them 5 times, at least.

It's amazing looking back to see how gullible I once was. I literally had no standards of evidence other than, "is it mormon-friendly?"

Those tapes were one of the first dominoes to fall for me. I heard them on my mission because a companion had them.

TGM mentioned in the tapes that JS had a revolver and fired off some shots. I was shocked because in all my years I had never heard that. I started to wonder what else I didn't know . . .

I've listened to part of those tapes. Madsen comes across as very sappy and fake, in my opinion, and I thought that when I believed. He has partook of the Kool-aid and is in deep confusion. I doubt he knew about many of the things we know about concerning Joseph Smith and his sexual peccidilos.

I had the tapes and as a TBMer once-upon-a-time, loved them. When one of my cassettes became severely damaged, I purchased the CD set. Truman G. Madsen was perhaps the most popular lecturer on the BYU Education Week circuit that would tour during the summer months at a stake center near you, and at the summer Campus Education Week- BYU Provo (back in the 70's). I think this series (has audience noises) is a recording of one of his lectures subsequently copied to audio cassettes and cds.

The audio set referenced in this post was called: "Joseph Smith the Prophet" (5 Cd's)

CD 1
1-6 Lecture 1: First Vision and Aftermath
7-10 Lecture 2: Spiritual Gifts

CD 2
1-2 Lecture 2: Spiritual Gifts (continued)
3-8 Lecture 3: Joseph’s Personality and Character
9 Lecture 4: Joseph Smith and Trial

CD 3
1-6 Lecture 4: Joseph Smith and Trial (continued)
7-11 Lecture 5: The Kirtland Temple

CD 4
1-2 Lecture 5: The Kirtland Temple (continued)
3-7 Lecture 6: Doctrinal Development and Nauvoo
8-10 Lecture 7: Teacher, Speaker and Counselor

CD 5
1-4 Lecture 7: Teacher, Speaker and Counselor (continued)
5-10 Lecture 8: Last Months and Martyrdom

- - - - - -

Madsen also produced another CD set: "The Life and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph" (5 Cds).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2013 01:15PM by jiminycricket.

I listened to the Joseph Smith the Prophet First vision lecture and YES this is the voice I remember so many years ago on my mission.

I was so amazed at these discussions.

Of course, once off the mission and not until later in my life did I bother to research Joseph Smith and found him to be a fraud.

It was these talks that helped me dispel my doubts about Joseph Smith for at least for a decade or so. I haven't gone back and looked specifically all of the claims but it seems to me that Madsen was only presenting the positive stories about Smith who by almost any account was a highly charismatic guy— and then Madsen dials up the stories to super hero levels. Now I have to laugh remembering how Madsen in one tape reads from JS's letter to Nancy Rigdon w/o acknowledging that it was aimed at talking the 17 year old into secretly marrying Smith as a plural wife.

Anyone looks good if you only talk about their good points and then play them up.

I heard these tapes on my mission. I remember having serious doubts after hearing the depiction of joseph's amazing divine revelation regarding tobacco and strong drink after Emma complained about how hard it was to clean up after the school of the prophets after a long night of prophetically spitting tobacco all over her house and drinking booze. Early church meetings sounded so much funner than modern ones. Emma was such a buzz kill.

I remember finding even TGM's white washed description of polygamy troubling. I remember him focusing on how heart broken Joseph was every time he was forced by the lord to take a new wife /rolls eyes.

TGM was my Dad's MP. My Dad told me growing up that TGM had the D&C memorized. That he could recite any section and verse on the spot.

I absolutely loved these tapes as well. I had them on my mission as well. Bought the book version after I got home.

I can cut a little bit of slack to youth leaders, mission leaders, seminary teachers, etc. that propagated this crap. At least they sincerely believed it and weren't deliberately trying to deceive.

Madsen on the hand...he obviously had done volumes of research, was intimately acquainted with the life of Joe Smith, yet deliberately chose to mislead by omitting copious amounts of details that didn't fit his faith building narrative. He knew what he doing.

Madsen was a hack, not a historian.

Aren't they all? That's why dissent isn't tolerated. The boat is riding low in the water.

You popped in those tapes early in the morning, climbed back in bed, and you could sleep for another hour and count it as comp study.

They don't hold up to any scholarly scrutiny, but they work on naive teenagers who think they are literally God's gift to the world.

I remembered some of the other missionaries in our little piece of the Zion empire had them, and thought they were amazing, marvelous, edifying etc... But I never really got into them.

Anyway, the day came when the man himself, even Truman G. Madsen, came to speak at our zone conference. I mostly remembered being underwhelmed. His talk was mostly a testimony and personal reflection, and the same kind of stuff you would hear from just about any LDS leader.

I remember feeling similarly underwhelmed when we had an event where our mission president was going to present on the Book of Mormon and the "Lamanite" peoples. He was a institute instructor with CES, and had done some work in South America. But the whole thing felt more like a travelogue than a serious examination of native American origins.

Anyway, those were some early items on the shelf. The hope that there were some wise men in the church who could make sense of the contradictions, and provide some solid, or even plausible, evidence for LDS claims began to come into doubt.

I continued to be underwhelmed until I found the critics of Mormonism, who were writing and saying things that made much more sense.

I'll have to check this out. I wonder if is the voice on some tapes I listened to on my mission but never knew or remember who was giving the speeches.

Yep, this is the man that I thought gave incredible stories and presentation on Joseph Smith.

He fooled me.

He was one of the most important people WHO EVER LIVED!!

He did more for mankind than anyone else. He was larger than
life. People criticize him out of hatred and ignorance, but his
work will conquer the world! Everyone will come to know how
incredibly great L. Ron Hubbard was, er Reverend Sun Myung Moon
. er . . . who were we talking about again??

TGM, Richard Bushman, Brian Hales, Teryl Givens... All these guys were using their defense of JS to showcase their talents in a bid to be the next Whitehouse Press Secretary.

Not sure how I missed being subject to those tapes, but I don't recall them. The shit on my mission were tapes from Hugh B Brown, Saturday's Warrior, My Turn On Earth and Paul Dunn. Good times not.

Fire in the hole.

My companion had them. TGM's presentation was so authoritative and certain. It was very impressive to hear about Joseph Smith from such a spiritual and expert perspective.

My companion loved the quote "I feel like saying hallelujah every time I remember I knew the prophet Joseph Smith", said by one of his contemporaries.

I remember listening to them on my mission and really liking them, but the only bit that I can remember was where Joseph promised someone that he would never taste of death. Truman then said dramatically, "And I can tell you how that prophecy was fulfilled!" Followed by a pause. Followed by changing the topic. This always left me hanging. You can tell me how it was fulfilled, but you're not going to?

Anyway, I still liked them so much that when I got back from my mission I tried buying them, but it was some other Truman Madsen Joseph Smith tapes (like there was a sequel? I don't know), and either they weren't as good or they weren't the same. I don't remember really listening to those as much.

Some of the criticisms above rest on the assumption that JS actually practiced polyandry as represented by B. Young and B. Hales, etc.

You might want to take it a little easier on JS until you can be sure that in fact, he was guilty as charged. I have scoured the literature and haven't yet encountered any primary source evidence that he, indeed, did practice it as these others represent.

IF he didn't, at least some of the invective above should be spared.

Arbiter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You might want to take it a little easier on JS
> until you can be sure that in fact, he was guilty
> as charged. I have scoured the literature and
> haven't yet encountered any primary source
> evidence that he, indeed, did practice it as these
> others represent.

You must not have "scoured" very well.

There's more than ample evidence -- "primary source" evidence included -- to show Joe "practiced" screwing any woman he could convince to be his "spiritual wife," and a few that he didn't even bother doing that with (such as Fanny Alger). That he sent existing husbands of women he wanted to have sex with off on missions, then "married" them (of course, it wasn't marriage at all, as it was entirely illegal and entirely "secret") and bedded them, often using excuses such as angels with drawn swords commanding him to do it.

Not sure if he turned the tapes into a book or vice versa, but I'm looking at the book right now - Bookcraft, 1989. I also have a copy of his book Eternal Man. Worth shit in terms of content but probably rare as a Mormon book.

Any takers?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2017 11:03AM by rt.