Elder Holland's reply to my letter to him concerning Book of Mormon issues puts in context the strategy of the 'Swedish Rescue'. The non answers by the Brethren and blaming anyone who asks questions. He dismisses the issues, counsels me to be open to the spirit and says my condition is worse than that of a man with terminal cancer (Jeff had delayed going to a hospital to give a terminal patient an apostolic blessing, in order to write to me).

An excerpt from my response to his reply with quotes from him (his statements in quotes):-

"So do what you want, Tom, but don’t embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy or archeology or horses. The discussion about the power and promise of the Book of Mormon went light years beyond that a long time ago."

Again you amaze me with such a statement. When and how precisely did this go “light years beyond science and history”. Jeff, you are either deliberately holding back information vital for mankind to understand the true nature of this planet and the universe or you are blowing smoke in the air. Which is it? Do you have knowledge our scientists would die for or are you mad?


"I love you and pray God you will be open to some spiritual indication of what is at stake here."

I see no evidence in your email nor in your works that you love me. You have refused to help and tried to blame me for some mysterious pain you feel, and you deride me. Which god will you pray to? The one depicted in a facsimile in the Book of Abraham who Joseph Smith said was God sitting on His throne. The figure has an erect penis which is rather a disturbing image of someone you pray to. It is, of course, quite normal if you understand the truth about the image, that it is a fictitious Egyptian fertility god. Don’t bother Jeff, I desire no supplication to such a being.


"I do love you and I will pray through this very night for you, more so than I will for the man who has cancer whom I now leave to bless. Yours is the more serious circumstance."

How offensive! You are saying I am in a worse condition than a man dying of cancer. Have you gone completely mad? How can you say, let alone think, such a thing? I am so sorry for that man, for anyone suffering a terminal illness, particularly a painful one. I have witnessed many friends and family going through such agony. How cruel and offensive of you to say such a thing!. I am in remarkably good health and associate with friends who love me. I consider myself very blessed or fortunate and would hate to have any illness let alone a terminal one which, I understand, could happen to any of us. How awful of you, I cannot believe you capable of such a thought. You certainly are not the man I considered you to be and, in no way, do you demonstrate the compassion you profess that Jesus Christ taught.

The full reply can be read at http://mormonthink.com/tomphillips.htm#response

His final expression of love fell on my deaf ears, as evidenced by my final remarks to him in which I ask him to 'man up', rather ironic considering the 'Manhood Award' he recently received in St. George.

"With immense sorrow but unfailing love,

Jeff"


Your sorrow is self inflicted. I have done nothing except tell the truth. That should not cause you sorrow. The truth should not be your enemy. As for your unfailing love – where is it? You have failed to give me a response, to justify your extraordinary claims and have tried to belittle me with your ravings. How is that ‘unfailing love’?

Jeff, please do not reply to this email unless you have anything of true substance to say. You will be wasting time for both of us. As i said earlier, either put up or shut up. I would like you to be man enough to substantiate that which you claim to be true or stop being a part of the brainwashing of innocent children such as my grandchildren.

Sorry, but unless you are man enough to do this I have lost all respect for you. If I can ever help you to seek truth and understanding I am willing to take whatever time you require,

I mean this in all sincerity,
Tom

I listened to that podcast again on the weekend while on a road trip. I kept wondering about Dehlin's comments how he was suggesting that some of Holland's comments were "sweet". I was a bit confused by that statement since Holland's response was anything but. Do you think Dehlin was perhaps trying to stay in Holland's "good books" by suggesting that Holland was being nicer than most of us interpreted him as being?

Yes. John Dehlin sucks up to Holland. This is why I sometimes sounded 'angry' (I prefer the term 'passionate') during the interview.

John pressed my buttons with remarks like this. I tried to tell myself afterwards that John was just being a good interviewer by playing 'devil's advocate'. Maybe again I am too kind to him and the truth has been borne out by his subsequent actions - suck up to Holland and John's SP. To hang with truth and all the people who are hurting because of Mormonism.

Thanks, Tom for posting and for all you are doing. So grateful for your courage and honesty. Both, your exchange with Holland and the response of the Church Historians at the Swedish Rescue meeting, just seemed to show that the church has no real answers and when they are forced to answer, it's all empty rhetoric, no substance.
There is nothing there but laying on guilt and dodging responsibility. A lot of people and families are devastated by these things and they don't really care. Just protect the bottom line. These developments are opening a lot of eyes, I think.

"So do what you want, Tom, but don’t embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy or archeology or horses. The discussion about the power and promise of the Book of Mormon went light years beyond that a long time ago."

---------------------------------------------------------------

In other words: "Facts don't matter -- feelings matter!"

This man is living in his own magical imagination, not the real factual world. He thinks that powerful, voice-shuddering conviction can conquer anything, even disagreeable and unchangeable reality.

The Mormon promise of power outweighs everything else. He needs everyone to know that he is right, and that he is in charge, and that's the last there is to say on the subject. Anyone who thinks differently is an "embarrassment" to themselves.

He truly is the General Alpha-thority in every room.

I think he is more a bully than anything.

I remember his tone when he spoke at BYU and I think he was most comfortable in the stern authority figure role. He is less confident when he uses the other tools of a manipulator.

Anyone remember the "makes me want to throw up" devotional talk at BYU? I think that part has been edited out.

I think he expects people to fall in line when he challenges them. I've experienced this in Mormonism this does work on some people all the time, and on some people some of the time, but there comes a time when it becomes useless--those people most likely leave Mormonism, because the cult doesn't make sense to people who,want to live an authentic, genuine life.

Translation:

JH:Uh, I got nothing when it comes to defending the BOM. And your questions make me have to confess that I have nothing. And that makes me feel like a hypocrit. And that makes me hate you for making me feel like a hypocrit when, in fact, I think I'm a really good person, the kind of person who is asked to bless a dying man. And I know that I've got nothing to give that dying man except fake platitudes and that makes me feel like a hypocrit and that makes me hate him.

The latter day prophets and apostles are afraid to speak, afraid to answer, afraid to take a position which they know is untenable.

They are afraid to be wrong, so they speak in generalities which need no defense and are unwilling to be brave and take a strong position in defending their testimonies.

Why?

I don't know. How do you defend the indefensible?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2013 03:59PM by 8thgeneration.

What is the "promise of the Book of Mormon?" If you can stay awake through the whole book or at least tell people that you did and if you can delude yourself into believing the incredibly inane and absurd stories in the BOM such as the immaculate beheading of laban and the 2000 stripling warriors who miraculously survived 13 years of wars without one dying and the 2500 Nephites who stood in line to thrust their hands into Christ's wounds and on and on, and if you pay your tithing and give the Church your free labor, then some day you will get to go to Mormon Heaven where you have to continue deluding yourself and obeying arseholes for eternity. Praise the Lord and the Man who communed with Jehovah!

Tom,

I read somewhere recently that Jeff Holland's GC talk was the most popular of all the talks given. The irony is that he's lying while folks think they're hearing the truth.

I'm amazed that Jeff has risen to the level he has, ..... or should I say "stooped as low as he has." His "love" for you is obviously conditional.

What a maroon.

*** everybody please note, if you don't know already, that Tom will be speaking at the Exmormon Foundation conference in Salt Lake City in October. He will be flying in from Europe to attend the conference.

See details at www.exmormonfoundation.org

I am looking forward to meeting him then and hearing him speak.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0t2pWUWE1Y8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D0t2pWUWE1Y8

I hope this gives you a chuckle Tom.

I think you've been a reasoned, determined voice. I don't know what it is like to have a relationship with Jeff Holland, but I have a sense through other men of entitled authority.

Sometimes they just like to talk and pronounce. You vex, I think you know you do. I am glad you are the type of man who has the nature to take on the big dog for something you value. I'll take you at your word that you are well, and I hope even better days are ahead for you.

Best.

What I would give to see the full text of Holland's reply...

It's yours for $10,000.

Seriously, I'm thinking of posting it (for free). The reason I didn't originally is that I respected the privacy of the Hollands. In the email, he mentions the location of his wife, Pat. It also shows something of his mental state at the time.

Anyway, I have now learned through experience that to be respectful and considerate of these lying hypocrites is not the right thing. They show no respect or love for us, just disdain. Imagine a bunch of 25 Swedish members seeking answers to valid questions and being given no answers and, instead, being threatened with excommunication?

Come on Jeff, with your 'Manhood' award, and threaten me with excommunication. Let's see how far that gets you. Will you strip me of my Godhood?

I'd like to see the full letter as well.. maybe you could just block out or erase the location of his wife?

I really hope you arrive in Salt Lake with your Godhood intact.

Well, as you all probably know, I'm still no m. Finding a way to rationalise JS was on ac id tr ips and chan neled a lot of our doctrine, and just spun it with a glossy version that the church HeartS ells (tm) to us. Yeah, I can live with him liking sk irt after 1835 etc.

Anyway.

Tom, others. I'm surprised you aren't over HeartS ell (tm) more often.

I'm here is one I struggle with.

This video. (Repair link needed)

24 odd seconds, when he "drops the beat"

Maybe this one has been thrashed to death here. Maybe not.

Anyway, knock yourselves out.

Try this

Sincerity @ 30 seconds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDE54OHRJLc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Tom,
I don't think LDS Inc. would dare excommunicate you. This would be a PR disaster. The seconding anointing would become front and center in a potential NY Times-Mattsson-like article, and it would completely destroy the "secrecy" that Elder Ballard alluded to in your ordinance. I think there are too many temple Morgbots that haven't a clue of the SA and if it were discussed in a highly visable NY Times-like article it would open another can of worms and back-fire big-time on TSCC.

I think the world would seriously creep-out to find that you are given power to "open-the-heavens" in that anointing. That alone would open all kinds of questions from the world as to why the top 15 don't, can't or won't answer questions: your questions, or the Swedes questions.

Isn't the "Swedish Rescue" really the "Swedish Debacle"?

Uhhhh, kind of like MORmON *polygamy* is really MORmON ADULTERY!!!

The magical mystery tour.

You have to ask yourself if these people actually respect or fear the judgement of a just God . Do they think the Grim Reaper isn't going to ever look them up ? And then what ? The price they will pay if in fact Christ is a true entity must be beyond their ability to comprehend . The only answer I have is that they don't believe their own B S .

You know that God distains frauds that claim to be something that they are not! He especially dislikes liars that hurt his children.
So the master of such people is not the LOrd but the father of lies - lucifer!!!!

Wow! Really? "Don't embarrass yourself" by asking about the facts? Just trust in the warm fuzzies we manipulated you into feeling and then interpreted for you as being god telling you, "the church is true."

Jeffery Holland never struck me as a complete idiot, until now.

I know Jeff Holland personally and quite well, that just doesn't sound like him at all. My interaction with him is mostly in person, but I can't imagine that kind of derision coming out of his mouth. Maybe his writing is more acerbic that his speaking. He must have been having a really bad day.

Tom, do you mind if I discuss this with him sometime? I won't if it would make you uncomfortable, but I'd almost like to confront him and ask him why he's taken that tone.

However, since you have your calling and election made sure, just don't shed any innocent blood and you've got the sweetest Pascal's Wager in history. :)

I've got my money on Bilbo's ring.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 12:55AM by SLDrone.

Didn't he offer to meet with people who have issues with the Church in the BBC interview?

Would love to see the video of that meeting! Maybe he can also get a follow up to Hinckley stating that they only share their financial records with the people that contribute.

That's certainly due, I don't qualify anymore, but they can come through on their PR gone bad promises any day.

SLDrone,

Having been a friend and admirer of Jeff Holland I too was shocked at his response. It was not the Jeff I knew, it was as if he had gone mad.

Of course, his actions since (lying on the BBC interview and offering to meet with people then completely ignoring their request for the meeting he proposed) confirms to me he is this type of person. The "Jeff" I knew in the past has either changed his personality or his "nice self" was just an act. Certainly now he relies more on his acting abilities than his academic or human qualities.

Regarding your suggestion his response may have been "ghost written" cannot be true. I know the circumstances of that day he wrote. He went ballistic at me and let his emotions get the better of him. I am sure he was censured by other apostles when they saw what he wrote. It should have been shown at least to another apostle or two, but it wasn't. He wrote it in the evening when he was alone in his office. I think it reminded him that he was part of a con and this is his way of dealing with it, come out fighting instead of admitting he had been wrong.

Also there was too much personal innuendo in the email to be "ghost written". He was writing to someone (me) he respected who had called him on the scam. Rather than be the nice Jeff you and I thought we knew, the real tortured Jeff showed its face.

If I were to receive any response I thought it would have been carefully prepared by a BYU professor, reviewed by others and signed by Jeff. It would have been kind in tone and given me the usual apologetic references.

I think this is what he intended because, when I chased for a response by phoning him, I was told I would recive a reply within 3 weeks. I said that would be too late, i needed a reply now. So, under pressure he personally wrote the rant and probably later regretted it. However, he has never apologised, just not man enough.

Please feel free to speak to him as you wish. Thanks Steve for your integrity and the help you have been to so many people. Glad to see you back on the board.

Tom

"The sting of the reproach is the truth of it."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 05:01AM by steve benson.

I think what we know of it speaks for itself and is what it is.

Personally (and my opinion of him was damaged primarily from that HeartSell (tm) book video he did I linked the YouTube to above), I think the email is just that. In its entirery, confidential, albeit embarrassing.

If you pist it here to satisfy our whatever's, does it just mean they will never engage anyone inn the future?

If you want to keep a door open for cordial communication, holding ontobthe email and not publishing it shows you are who you are.

Publishing it just embarrasses him (even more) but lets him/them fall back on your character as their defensive reply.

I wouldn't give that to them..

But its your businessbwhat you do

Thanks for the advice.He did know I would post (in its entirety) any response he gave, so I would not be amiss in posting it.

However, I hear your counsel and will most likely abide by it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 03:46AM by anointedone.

If these communications are not made publicly available, then the deceit, dodging and manipulation engaged in as a matter of course by the Mormon Cult remain hidden, unchecked and protected.

I therefore applaud "anointedone" for calling Holland out in his correspondence with Holland--and then for publishing that correspondence here.

Hiding facts from people in order to prevent them from making rational and informed decisions in their lives is what abusive organizations like Mormonism do as part of their goal of controlling others while protecting institutional interests.

We can't know if you don't show. Go, Tom, go! :)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 04:49AM by steve benson.

Steve.
Will any one ever writi Another email to another friend?

Strategically, I think the extra 10% we get from the email doesn't outweigh the value of having the ace up the sleeve.

Id sit on it.

Don't let them have anything as a victory- in their own mind.

No LDS is going to read it or pick anything up.

I mean just look at the sincerity moment at 30 seconds in the video.

Things like this do more than a he said he said email that Tom could have edited up as he sees fit.

(Not that he did, but you follow)


Unless he made some admission in it, which is unlikely, and would be denied.

Its preaching to the converted
Hence keep it up the sleeve is more valuable