RfM Community – Please, rip this apart, I know you can. Relative thought is useless.


I would contend that religion is necessary. Here's my thinking:

I have a acquaintance that is severely disabled by OCD. She uses a whole roll of toilet paper each time she visits the bathroom. She scrubs her hands literally raw whenever she feels dirty (the sores are unsightly and tragic). Every shower is at least two hours. She goes through liters of hand sanitizer every week.

Her brain cannot handle the world as it is. She lives in her own reality where germs can be scraped from her body with no regard to her wellbeing. She is a martyr, a saint against the slow march of bacteria. Without her established support system, she would cease to function.

I see this same thought process reflected in the TBMs in my life. Their brains cannot handle anything else besides the reality that they have created (or have been created) for themselves.

The truth would destroy them. They would limp and stumble through life with no direction. They NEED this church and its pre-packaged answers to the most important and beautiful questions that life presents to us.

The world is full of sin and immorality. The germs of truth can be prayed and medicated away.

If I approached my OCD friend and told her that 00.01% of germs still survive after hand sanitizer, or that her own cells are vastly outnumbered by bacteria within her own body, she would be devastated. She would no longer be able to contribute to society. She would be a leech, a handicap.

Some TBMs are the same way. Without this church as a guide, without some checklist to heaven or set of rules, they would be useless.

Some people are just simply ill equipped to find self-actualization on their own. Who are we to pull back the curtain and undermine their belief system?

So my question to all of you:

Is truth worth the sacrifice?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 06:04AM by darksprout.

In a nutshell:

My opinion is that religion has been part of what makes us human, developing the core of the traditional, social, familial community (tribe) for thousands of years: each one constructed to fulfill some of the basic needs of humans, and very often a strong component to the government of each group. It answers the major questions humans have about their world, and how to live in it.

Some people get along fine without any religion at all.
QED, it cannot be "necessary"

He thinks religion has it's place in the world and is necessary, but after my experience with religion, I beleive that it is a harmful lie and should be confronted for what it is, a cultural mythology that should go away.

Unless, of course, you're referring to dysfunction.

Religion has been around for a while.

Take a look at the world.

How's it workin' for ya?

Timothy

Inside religion you live in the darkness but are inside artificial light. But artificial light soon or always break.
All you got left is the universal daylight which aim nowhere and you are not the center of the world.

In the daylight you live in the open world, inside the artificial light you are locked in but you think that all you see are all there is.


OCD. Seen that in kids who live under great control. Have a cousin who censor the world for himself and the kids. He brainwash himself and his kids with soccer. The school even mentioned to him, your kids only talk about soccer in school. Try from time to time to chat with him about the world around us and he do not want to hear so he pretend he does not hear. His kids have developed insane vocal tics and they force themselves to cough loudly to release stress. I sense that he want to conserve his worldview together with them.

Is truth worth the sacrifice?

Well, my personal experience is that once you leave the darkness and artificial light for the daylight, you are soon sacrificed by the ones you earlier knew.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 06:41AM by volrammos.

The value of religion is based in the perception of the viewer. It's PURPOSE is to provide answers to the ultimate question of "WHY". Using the tools offered by the ego, it leads on a merry chase in the hamster wheel, offering tidbits of answers, but each tainted with the rules of humanity, and not the truth at the very core of existence.

Attempting to make "MAN" as the basis for the interlude of humanity, it completely overlooks the bigger picture, which includes the "ALL" in the composition of reality. When the foundation is corrupted by the falsities and desires to exercise control using FEAR, (False Evidence Appearing Real), as the underlying mechanism to sustain itself, authority is brought into dominion and the roots of duality, (good vs evil, right vs wrong, righteous vs sinner), are magnified and roars its presence into the history of mankind.

Something this HUGE, with generations being mislead, tied up in rituals and dogma, the people become "Sheeple", willing to be led because it's such a minefield to navigate the known, (and unknown), supposed threats that lie in the realm of the now, and the future spectrum after death.

Is religion necessary? It was, and still is, the conduit of inquiry for answering the ever present questions burned into our conscious experience of life. Once the view becomes clear and unobstructed by the diversions of the ego mind, the answers are found to have never been very far away at all. We already knew them, but we were so lost in the PERCEPTIONS of life, the answers laid there, like sunken treasure, that has great value if sought for, discovered, and returned to be viewed and appreciated.

Within those discoveries/answers lies the truth. We are NOT the enemy. We are NOT the scourges of a greater power to be taunted, tested, and then sequestered off to eternal damnation because we didn't adhere to the "RULES" of humanity, instead of embracing the core presence of our actuality.

We are.....WHAT....NOT WHO, contributors to the game of life. We are the essence of experiential existence. We are the basic elements of life, a cohesive part of the "ALL". And while our experiences seem to direct us into believing the "WHO" is what matters, the truth; the staring unblinkingly in your face FACT, is that "WE", are but portions of this mystery, with the underlying inquiry to find the hidden truth and return to what was never really lost at all.

THAT is the core of the religion experience. We are seeking the truth, the light of existence, and the ego offers answers that complicate the journey, screw up the GPS, and then smiles at itself for enhancing "IT'S" experience as the parasite of life getting it's sustenance from the host, (that would be US, folks), and ensuring it's continuation at the expense of the "WHAT" we are, which is love, peace, unity, and joy.

HMM, hard to find those in a religion that professes judgments, separation, righteous indignation, and domination.

I've always thought of church/religion/faith as a hobby. It's something you think and do and believe and spend time and money on, but it has nothing to do with real life, and it actually hinders your moral growth in my opinion. Otherwise, why do religious people not accept the more offensive beliefs taught by their churches? It's because they have a higher moral sense that overrides these immoral teachings. Religions teach that they are a moral guide, but actually they are an unnecessary moral replacement for the morality you already have.

I also have a friend who I'm certain would fall apart without the Church. So I leave her alone in her little world, knowing that I'd be doing her more harm than good if I tried to take that away from her.

Having said that, the Church is her support system because that's what she grew up with.

The error is in thinking that it's religion that they need. Society used to have little villages which people belonged to throughout their entire lives. It took a village to raise a child. The people relied on each other.

You didn't have a child growing up and moving to the other end of the country in pursuit of work and a life. I heard a study mentioned on the radio where they said that it was the separation from family which was causing a lot of isolation and loneliness in so many people.

If we as a society came together and created more groups, like more youth groups, or getting more involved with their local food banks, for instance, then we could help to stem the feelings of being isolated that so many people deal with every day.

What if, instead of a religion, each area of a city had a building where they could get together every Sunday with other members of their local community and just be together and socialize? Maybe there could be talks about issues that particular community was dealing with.

My point is that it doesn't have to be religion. I see religion as the cause of way too many problems in the world. My god is bigger than your god and my god wants me to beat up your people. I no longer see it as a good thing.

A support group does not have to involve a religion to be a good thing. Maybe that's why religion keeps surviving in today's modern society. We aren't setting up better alternatives. Especially in today's world, people need emotional support and their religion is where they currently get it.

Its a more elaborate Santa Clause myth. People want to belive for all kinds of reasons, that you have stated very well. Im hoping that maybe as society matures and progresses people will be able to move away from the need for a god figure, and learn basic true principals to live more happy healthy lives.

Trying to point out that there really is no god, to people who aren't ready, is like being the anoying gradeschooler who insists on ruining santa for everyone else. Some people might not be ready..... hey, but some people are.

In my case, it was religion what caused my dysfunction--OCD, in fact (or at least a form thereof: scrupulosity). Without the Church's spurious threats of moral depravity I would never have felt the need to "repent" of the human condition, as it were (i.e., I felt the need to compulsively confess for "sins" I did not commit and was in fact no where near committing that are not considered sins by many in the Church, to say nothing of most of the rest of the world including arousal, unwanted sexual thoughts, etc.).

The Church made my life a living hell for several years starting as a missionary. I wouldn't wish it on but the worst criminal offenders.

Religion is not necessary. Religion and any other superstitious, alternative reality does not promote a realistic, reality-based world view. This imposes hell on the rest of us who simply want to live and let live after an empirical fashion.

Strong stuff: natural selection weeds out those with traits that compromise survival. Your acquaintance is lucky to live in an era we understand this stuff (to an extent) and she can be accommodated. For my part, it seems that we would all be better served by natural selection if it were permitted to weed out those who simply can't handle reality (instead of artificially prevented from its natural course). But I appreciate that this is an extreme position and not necessarily entirely empathetic. I'm just tired of the thousands of years of impositions by religious zealots on the rest of us. I prefer reality to your sick, twisted paradigms, thank you very fucking much.

"we would all be better served by natural selection if it were permitted to weed out those who simply can't handle reality"

Totally agree with this. Natural selection is what weeds out the weak. Ideally over time this would evolve humankind to be the strongest, healthiest, wisest it's ever been. Instead we cater to the weak. And the weak people are breeding!

"Some people are just simply ill equipped to find self-actualization on their own. Who are we to pull back the curtain and undermine their belief system?"

Are you kidding? These people don't learn and grow because they are hooked on a religion that tells them how to be, how they must be. Religion has turned their ability to self-actualize off like a light switch.

The good news? Get religion out of your life and you can turn the switch back on.

The proof? Look at all the stories right here on RFM. Poster after poster illustrating with their stories how after years of doing as were commanded, doing things against their own best interests, having their families destroyed, they finally TOOK. THIER. LIVES. BACK. They will tell you how life is still hard, but its honest, and it is their own again. And, suddenly they understand the reasons why they do things. They become involved in critical decision making processes. They live in reality. They love reality.

How many times has someone left religion and the first thing they say is, "I got my brain back."

No one needs religion. Your description would also work very well describing drug addiction.

If you want to understand the world, master social interactions, form strong bonds with family and friends, answer life's tough questions,'s, build a strong moral base, and be the best you can be-------get an education and an open mind.

Good observation--classic chicken and egg problem. Is it need that creates religion, or religion that creates the need. I tend to think it is the latter...

We have what we need! We are all drawn inherently to love, truth and beauty. That is our inborn guide. And we all have a conscience, common sense and compassion. Those are the tools we were born with. I think religion tries to make us not trust ourselves so that others can control us for their own power and gain. That's my take on it anyway.

religion poisons everything

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0ec45831bbc9de910a43652da7edbc66/tumblr_mh9npgBZ3J1s2z7hqo1_400.jpg

It's a lot like the Matrix, after a certain age pulling people out can have serious negative effects. Not that it happened with all people, but there are some who cannot handle their whole world being turned upside-down.

I think it probably impacts mormons more than most religious people, because if you're an easter/christmas Catholic and you figure out that religion is bogus, you shrug and stop attending twice a year. If you attend three hours every Sunday, as well as go to the temple weekly, take your kids to YM/YW, go home teaching, etc. then the church is your life. You're not putting away a tradition, you're changing a paradigm.

I am the type who likes things spelled out--like, do this and this will be the consequence. When I do my job, I hate it when they leave any part of my job without direct instructions.

I needed the structure in my life. All is well and good UNTIL they throw something your way that they have no answers for, let alone the wrong answers. Have your boyfriend be gay in 1983--talk to the leaders, the LDS SS therapist. Talk about a total mind fuck. I tried for YEARS to make it all fit. I struggled with severe suicidal depression trying to make sense of it. I had to let go--for my own sanity.

That is the problem with religion. It is all well and good as long as things go well or they have some answer for you. They offered me NO HOPE and whatever answers they did give me went against everything I believed in--including their religion. They broke a lot of their own rules.

When you run into a brick wall like this--and with the gay issue--pretty much any religion, then you either let go or die.

It is right up there with sex for money as one of the oldest businesses on earth.

"Give me money(resources) and as the power-in-the-sky's authority on earth I will stop (bad thing) from happening!
"Oh you think _I_ failed? Power-in-the-sky thinks you did not have enough faith and is punishing you. Next time, believe stronger or punishment will be twice as bad!"

Oldest trick in the book. Tell your followers they have a problem they didn't know about and then sell them the fix. If they are still bothered, blame them and charge more money!

"Some people are just simply ill equipped to find self-actualization on their own. Who are we to pull back the curtain and undermine their belief system?"

I agree that some people are ill equipped. Some are not dealt any winning cards in life (health, intelligence, opportunity, etc.). Some have lives of nothing but suffering, struggle and no hope other than their religion.

So, on one hand, religion is the opiate to keep people free from the pain of reality.

Maybe it is all someone has to cling to. They do not have any concept of what religion really is. It just is.

Maybe they don't have the potential to get off the pain med because the pain is too great.

Maybe not having answers or facing mortality is too much for some people.

Maybe many can't handle thinking there is no one out there steering our existence and that life is not fair.

However, on the other hand I have to ask if religion is the best thing humans can come up with to deal with these issues? That's pathetic in this day and age. If people were focused on education like they are on religion they would be better served. If people were given critical thinking skills instead of Holy Writs, the world and their lives would be better served. Of the few good things that religion is associated with, why do we need religion to do them?

The bottom line for me is that my hope for humanity has decreased over time. There is a reason religion arises practically in every culture. Most humans are wired to want easy answers, and crave robotic rituals. Humans on religion don't waste a lot of time in existential angst, however they do waste a tremendous amount of time on their religions.

If someone has a disease that really warrants a pain med, maybe that's the role of religion. However, in human history it has become a recreational drug and IMO is not a good thing. Recognizing how repetition and memes work in the human brain, religion is bound to thrive in one form or another. It's a human invention. It's harder for the brain to make new trails with new information all the time than it is for the brain to utilize well worn neuron pathways. It's easiest and reaffirming if everything in the person's life fits the patterns already set in his brain.

This is a topic I've read about often and I go back and forth. I've lowered my expectations for humanity and concluded that religion is the preferred coping mechanism. I like to think that humans will find better substitutes without the BS and reason-damaging baggage that religion provides but I'm not hopeful.

One example of where it is likely a needed medication is in the book Unbroken, which I highly recommend. It is a biography.

The subject if the book survives a Japanese POW camp but is left a damaged man, drinking, without direction, focused on revenge.

When all else fails, he discovers Christianity, forgives his abusive jailor, and finds new purpose as a camp leader for troubled youth.

Now that is the exception, the useful medical purpose for what is a recreational drug to most, but for that man, it was necessary.

I am not talking about Mormonism here. Why? Because cults are not necessary. They are chosen.

I feel religion offers individuals a place of solace -whether it be a mountaintop or a church- to find peace and to pray for peace. It is an imperfect world. Without the many religions of this world there would be so much more poverty. Groups gather to provide food for the poor, suppplies for poor children for school, get them medical help when needed, go overseas to start schools and hospitals. Yes, it can be done also with caring citizens but not as many groups such as that would provide as is done with church groups.I am not referring to American church groups only. No one should be ridiculed for attending a church that has outreach programs and who teaches about Jesus or some other loving person who is in their belief system. What is the harm?

Honestone wrote:

"Without the many religions of this world there would be so much more poverty."

Just curious but what evidence do you have to that effect?

Timothy

So you don't feel that people affiliated with religions all over the world do more for others than most people. Not all - just read my post and ou will see I never said indiv. citizens didn't do very good work on behalf of people. In my community I do not know organizations that have the numbers that we have regarding churches. And all our churches do things for the people locally, nationally and around the world. As for specifics I wouldn't hve that....this is anecdotal evidence seen by what I see practiced and in the news and TV. Simply don't know of any groups that do as much. Perhaps you do. I would like to know if you do.

"Religion" is a useful social mechanism to keep the lower classes content to be trampled on, while awaiting their "reward in heaven" and for the rich to be assured of forgiveness by the priesthood for "faith" (and money).

"Sex at Dawn" has a clear diagram of the rise of the "upper class" along with a male priesthood, and marginalization of women and the poor. The phrase "the divine right of kings" was religion proping up the power structure of the day.

With some exceptions (those brave souls that ACTUALLY tried to follow the example of Jesus) organized religion has enabled an abusive and dysfuntional social, political and econonomic system.

In my own life, the TSCC has done more harm than good. Had my parents taken me every Sunday to the library, I would be a happier, more confident person.

Religion is the greatest hand sanitizer known to man.

~ Good one ~

http://www.aeonmagazine.com/world-views/troy-jollimore-secular-ethics/

You don't need the promise of Heaven or the threat of hell to
be a good person. If you need religion to do that for you, then what does that say about you?

I agree that religion, like alcohol, seems to be a necessary crutch for many people. I personally do not need it. Some say it provides answers, but I think it provides false ones, and if a person can delude themselves into believing those "answers," fine. Whatever it takes, I guess. I see no need to attempt prying someone away from their cherished beliefs, or the system of delusion they have fabricated to get along in life. Boards like this are all about helping those who realize it's BS. The trouble with religious people is that they want you to have their virus.

Religion is a man made device that is all about power and control. People see the false God, Jehovah, in the Old Testament and they are scared to death of him. They don't want to piss him off and so when a priest/pastor/bishop says: "No problem, I'll tell you how to act, what to do, etc., so you can stay on his good side. People are grateful for that, but they give all their power away, because religious leaders can tell them ANYTHING and they will do it. The Mormon church is a great example. They tell you how many earrings to wear, what underwear you can wear, what pictures you can hang on your walls and how to donate all your time, talents, money...

Spirituality is different. It's just you and God. And the God I pray to doesn't care about all my stuff. He just wants me to accept his love. That's it.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, depending how stupidly the humans act who are infected with the disease of religion (As RIchard Dawkins observed, "Religion is a virus of the mind").

Religion operates something like this:

--Religion provides a sense of community, identity, security and purpose for individuals within a given group.

--Religion further serves as a means to identify perceived threats posed by those not of a particular religious group, which leads the group feeling threatened to flee from the outsider group, kill the outsider group and/or steal their stuff.

--Religion is, thus, a means by which species pass on their genes to the next generation--where, ironically, at some future date their offspring will be annihilated in a world-destroying nuclear holocaust fought in the name of god. Amen.

Truthfully, the only effective way to defeat the insanity of religion is through continuing education; unfortunately, what one learns in terms of bodies of knowledge is not passed on genetically to the next generation. Fortunately, however, the power to critically think and reason past all the religious nonsense is.

H.G. Wells noted:

“Civilization is in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.”



Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2013 10:23PM by steve benson.