I'm struggling to understand whether I am being reasonable or if my mormon upbringing is still working against me.

I'm a divorced male in my 40s. My ex guilted me over small things, turning them into big deals that were contrary to the gospel. She did gaslighting, where she changed her argument (denying it) and I often felt like I was running behind her to please her constantly. I finally gave up when it got ridiculous and when I had left the church--she was infuriated over that.

FFwd to half-decade after divorce and dating. I hadn't really met anyone that I felt I could make a long-term relationship with. Trust is definitely an issue. I believe most women I date are going to screw me over in the end. They don't plan it, but it's in their nature. I tend to go after intelligent women who are not overly hung up on big-ticket items and shopping, but are still mindful about their looks.

Last year I found one who really grabbed my interest. I reached the point where I believed I could actually fall in love with her. I felt I had, but then at times I found myself doubting it, having some trust issues, even some jealousy when she went out with friends (and her ex-husband was with them). She was also, at least at the beginning, a bit selfish. I would always go see her (an hour drive through traffic), would accommodate her emotional and even sexual needs above mine. I raised these issues and she would both downplay them a little and try to improve a little. She didn't seem to be guilting, gaslighitng or manipulating, but at one point I realized that I was beginning to feel with her a little like I had with my ex--I was trying to be overly pleasing, accommodating. When I realized that I was acting this way, and that I was sometimes feeling jealous, I analyzed why.

This woman hadn’t dated anyone seriously since her divorce the year before. She was on good terms with her ex, so much, that she hung out with him (usually with other friends), took care of his pets/house when he was away and told me that a couple of times, she stayed over at his house (when he was out of town) sleeping in their old bed, to take care of the pets overnight. Even after six months of serious dating, she was concerned about telling him or her adult children about me. She said she didn’t want them to think that I was the reason she’d divorced him. And once, a little earlier on, we were in town near the place where she often hangs out with her ex and other friends and she purposely diverted us around that café to avoid being seen by a friend (at least that was her story). Never once had she introduced me to her circle of friends. I spent most of the time we had together with her in her apt, but we didn’t go out that often in her downtown area, rather either we would hang out or go to neighboring cities.

Through this, I kept getting the feeling that her reluctance to include me in her friendships was perhaps a bit of her feeling embarrassed to be dating me. And yet, she had told me that she adored me, loved me, wanted to have a future with me. Her reluctance and other signs of selfishness were a concern to me. When I expressed my concerns, she had a way of sucking me back into full devotion. Each time, I found myself deciding that to lose her was worse than dealing with these issues. As this weird sense of secrecy continued, at one point when I was going to be unavailable for two weeks to be with her, she was with her ex and friends the first night I was away, and she didn’t text me all night. The next morning she seemed defensive and made excuses for why she didn’t text.

I had already accumulated concerns over her treatment of our connection regarding her friends and that episode turned me into a jealous lover. I realized then, that the relationship was not healthy. Additionally, because of the slight distance, my weekends were taken with her and my time dedicated to my kids and to running a house were starting to take a back-seat. So, with all of this in mind, I ended the relationship.

It’s been a month and I still miss her and what we’d developed. In my head I think the combination of her and my issues were a recipe for disaster over time. I wondered if my trust issues from being a Mormon aren’t really a big part of the reason it failed. Maybe it’s more me than her. Am I just too jealous and needy, while also not trusting and letting things happen?

I asked a therapist about it, and she told me that I should trust my intuition about the relationship and that ending it was probably right if only because I had concerns that weren't going away. That a truly good relationship shouldn't have all this drama and concern at the beginning.

On the other hand, I am beginning to feel that the chances of finding the right person for me is slim. I've gone half a decade and only felt potential in one relationship of the dozens of women I've dated.

You sound desperate.

Girls don't fancy desperate.

They want man.

In my experience, girls are more interested in people who are less available. I received far more attention from girls when I was in some form of relationship than when I was truly single. So, stop fussing about emotions and feelings and all that malarkey. Get yourself a girl, not Mrs Perfect, just a girl you get on with.
It will either work out, in which case great, or it won't, in which case you move on.

If you're fat or boring, forget it. Women want a bloke who isn't a slob and who can make them laugh.

As for those deep and meaningful thoughts and intuitions...who are you kidding, man up!

This approach can work but its weak.

You don't have to play unavailable. Here's what I think. The number one quality I look for in a woman: she has to dig me. A great personality doesn't matter unless she really likes me. Beautiful eyes don't do anything for me unless she really likes me. Hanging out with her friends or her ex doesn't matter to me if she really likes me.

She has to have the number one quality or I'm truly not interested. If you really think that way, they figure it out. The games end quickly. It's way better than pretending to be unavailable. Once I got that going, dating was fun. Having doubts? I understand. Take are. Dating someone unless. Cool, enjoy.

Many women really don't like being referred to as girls. Its insulting. Lose that habit.

I agree, you sound desperate, like a dog craving attention in an obnoxious way. That's irritating.

But they can still keep the judgmental attitude.

Well, your post comes off as a little jealous and needy. I think you probably are holding on to some baggage. Whether that's from your past marriage or from church programming, I have no idea. I'm inclined to think it's issues from your marriage and this has not much (not going to say nothing) to do with the church.

I am very interested in how you define this: "I believe most women I date are going to screw me over in the end. They don't plan it, but it's in their nature."

It was hard to keep reading after that without feeling defensive myself. I hate, hate, hate, hate it when men (women do this too!) make a sweeping generalization about all women in general when they are really just still reacting to ONE person's actions. But let me put that aside for a minute, because your post is not about me.

So, what, exactly, do you mean by "women are going to screw you over?" Do you mean, you think they'll cheat? Do you mean, you think they'll take your money? What is it they'll screw you over about? They'll date you and have sex but not marry you? What is it you want -- what are your expectations?

And the other part of my question is: what, exactly is in women's nature? To screw you over? Because I don't know what that means, I don't know what quality is in ALL women's nature that will always apply to you.

Also, your therapist sounds like that was some crap advice. If you had concerns that weren't going away, why weren't you communicating like an adult? A therapist should be helping you learn to do that and you should be working on things like trust, respect, self-respect, communication, and boundaries.

It sounds to me like the only problem you all had was: she wasn't ready to include you in her circles of friends as a huge part of her life because you just weren't there yet. That was the equivalent of FWB or a long-distance relationship. It doesn't sound like there was any commitment there, so I don't know why you think you should be involved with every little facet of her life. Had you introduced her to your children? Was she spending time with you in your home, acting like a partner when you were together?

I think one of the major hangups I've observed with exmos trying to date is the expectation that one date = committed partnership. Or a few dates = serious relationship. You can date someone for months or even years and still have it going nowhere and that might even work for both parties. Intimate relationships don't necessarily include emotional intimacy. It sounds to me like you put all your eggs in one basket and were expecting her to treat you like a serious BF or even a committed partner and the relationship just wasn't that serious to her. And you both failed to communicate properly what your expectations were to each other.

I am just guessing at this point, based on what little you've written.

Dogzilla,
I didn't write clearly. I meant that I often feel that I will get screwed by women. I know that it's not true. I just often feel it when I start dating a new woman. It's my flaw. I put it in there for context about how I am flawed that way.

WRT my friends, I had in fact introduced her to many of my friends at parties I took her to. We hung out a couple of times with one of my closest friends and his wife. On the few times she did come to my house, she did meet my children. She didn't seem too concerned that I was introducing her to my friends and family, as long as I was all right with it.

As for communication, I did express my concerns with her. She had told me that she loved me, that she wanted a deep and LTR with me. I told her my concerns about her treating me as a secret. She said that she was concerned how her ex would take it and possibly use it as evidence that she divorced him because she just wanted to date. I didn't understand it, but I tried to respect it. I found it hard to respect after 6 months or so of serious dating.

Maybe I was just in a long-distant FWB and didn't realize it, but she had told me she loved me, so I thought it was the real deal.


Stumbling, we just have different styles. I'm athletic and hardly boring. I don't have any problems getting dates or second dates. I just can't find someone I am that excited about.

That's because you're looking. Relax and just let it happen.
You'll wake up one day, look over the other side of the bed and realise "Damn, I'm in a long term relationship, how'd that sneak up on me...."

good luck dude

Perhaps my issue is merely one of semantics then.

Because it sounds like this woman either misrepresented herself, or changed her mind. Or perhaps she had different expectations about what love and LTR means.

In my mind, that is not "getting screwed."

Getting screwed, to me, is when your ex cleans out your bank account and runs off with your best friend, taking your dog with her after she trashed your credit rating.

You are just suffering what all dating people suffer: This is hard. Dating is a numbers game. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your handsome prince (forgive the gender thing there). The reason we date is to determine how compatible we'd be for one another. Most of the time, it doesn't work out. That's not really getting screwed to me. That's just life.

Also, pro tip: LD relationships rarely work out (if they started out that way) because it's fake intimacy. You really bond with people when you are with them every single day and you see them at their best and worst and they see you at your best and worst, and you still keep going. Intimacy cannot happen when you see each other every other weekend or so and the rest of the relationship is phone calls, emails, texting and skype. You don't get a feel for the day-to-day ups and downs. You can't really support each other in a crisis. You can't exactly stop at the store and pick up some milk for her on your way home, right? Can't go walk the dog for her because she's stuck at work? You only see the very best of each other.

Another pro tip: Just because someone SAYS they love you, that does not mean they are a good partner for you. Love, in and of itself, is not enough. Corollary to that, just because someone says they love you, that does not mean you two are "in love." I love my dog, that doesn't make our relationship The Real Thing. Dig?

Most people will be a bad fit for us or have their own emotional/behavioral problems. That's just the way it is. We can't love or be loved by everyone.

Having said that, yes, one's experience in the LDS church can mess up one's ability to have successful relationships -- particularly outside Mormonism. It did with me. But my nevermo ex's history of being beaten by her mother messed up her ability to have a successful relationship. Life messes with us.

But we increase our chances of success when we understand ourselves and pay attention to the dynamics of the relationship.

A friend once told me, after finding her husband (and they've been married almost 30 years now) that she had assumed that all relationships were a constant struggle, because all her past relationships had been struggles. But everything with this man just worked without trying. I think that's possible. But it means dating a lot of people and being constantly aware of what's really going on -- not what we hope is going on.

I thought your story was going to end with finding out she was still married, or that she had another lover who was friends with all of her friends.

I agree with this, regardless of your behavior, hers is completely inappropriate. I dated a girl that was like that for a while, and I continuously found out more and more things that she was lying about, her entire life was based on lies. I connected with one of her friends right at the tail end of our relationship and we started sharing our suspicions and findings, we both found out about so many new lies and were so mad by the end of that one meeting that we both decided to confront her. When she decided that telling each of us (separately) more lies was the way to go (and different lies, we started fact checking with each other), we both decided to cut her off.

Afterwards, I noticed all of the red flags I had been ignoring, ans you mentioned almost all of them.

My mormon parents really skewed my perception of what was normal and healthy in a relationship, starting with people not in a relationship are failures. Better to be in a bad relationship than none at all.

So my first recommendation is to think long and hard about your parents' relationship and how that impacted you. Sometimes the unfinished baggage from our parents or growing up reappears in relationships. And the lds church can be incredibly codependent...which doesn't help relationships either.

So. Figuring out your trust issues with women would also be helpful. Figure out the stuff you can work on ( I recommend a good therapist) and work on it.

Have you read the cracked article about uncomfortable truths? Highly recommend it. search for it on your fav. search engine.

Finally, ppl are really different. When my husband and I got together, it was under a "no games" assumption. Over the years we've had our ups and downs, but the no bs, straight shooting has worked well. I let him know my expectations and wants, and he lets me know his. We give each other freedom. This is anathema to many mormon relationships that are all about passive aggression.

ava Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Better to be in a bad relationship than
> none at all.


Oh man, I heard that when I was a teen. A bad marriage is better than none. What sort of screwed up thinking is that?

This is much more about being married to crazy than anything else. I've been through much of what you describe. The gaslighting was especially corrosive to trust. My lack of trust is amplified by me being the scapegoat of my family due to a narcissistic mother.

I don't believe the church caused any of this, but it exacerbated it and acted as enabler to my abusers. It also perpetuates the lie that any two people can have a successful marriage.

If you are like me, rejection by those whom you loved and trusted may be leaving you desparate for emotional intimacy and once you get that, you drop your guard. Even well-adjusted people do this with rebound relationships all the time.

Whoa, Stumbling, no need for the ad hominem. aninny4this, you're not desperate. If it's anything like what a lot of people feel after leaving religion, there are issues with lingering, latent beliefs.

1. Am I doing this because of who I am? This first approach questions you at your very core. Do you generally want specific aspects in a relationship because you, just you, appreciate those things? Each of us have specific, unique traits we value in a relationship, but sometimes those normal desires are frightening to one's own self if they conflict with...

2. Am I doing this because of how I was raised? Face it. When you've spent your entire life in a church, there are things you didn't even realize you espoused. I say this with utter embarrassment--it took me about a year out of the church to be okay with the homosexuality of others. After I stopped criticizing such behaviors, I now respect those who have come out as some of the most incredible people. However, you can see that there was no inherent hatred toward homosexuality, but that it was simply drilled into me, however unconsciously. Since such changes make one wonder what OTHER false impressions he/she has had, this third point comes into question.

3. Am I doing this because I was raised NOT to? Sometimes this makes life difficult as well. When you realize that one pivotal aspect of religion was wrong, what else could you have been ignoring without knowing it? I agree with Ava that a Mormon upbringing completely alters one's perception of a healthy relationship ("I want to marry an RM!" "Temple marriages are stronger than normal ones" "Just look how happy Mormons always are!"). Be cautious when you take steps into the dark, but do take them.

Now, couple all this with the natural difficulty to be found in any relationship, and you've got what a lot of us found this website for: heartache.

As far as relationship advice goes, if you want it to work, don't let it not work. Otherwise, let it go.

This girl has signs of still married or hoping to get back with her ex or is still relying on him financially or something. Did u check online for her divorce records? Try Utahs right to know website. Anothet thing I need to bring up is the fact that its not that all women will screw u over. Its that u are choosing the ones that will. Your maye picker is broken. It is conmon for people to feel comfortable with ...attracted to people who resemble those from their past. You need to stop looking and figure out why you ate in this pattern and what the red flags are. This goes back further than ypur marriage and intp childhood. You may have had a parent woth certain traits or a personality disordee

Sorry..typing from phone. Without knowing your ex or this other woman, I am guessing it is narcissistic personality disorder. Look it up and learn. Is this what u are dealing with in women u choose? Look at your parents and see which one treated u this way. Could be u are recreating relationships that felt unresolved to you and subconsciously trying to fix what wrong. You cant fi x it and u are not to blame. But you need

you need to understand the pattern so that you can stop repeating it in your life.

OP:

You wrote, <I believe most women I date are going to screw me over in the end.>

Dogzilla addressed this nicely in her response, but I'd like to add some more observations. It sounds like you have some very negative attitudes about women. If you want to have trust, you have to learn how to trust that your dating partner is NOT going to screw you over at some point just because she possesses two X chromosomes and a uterus.

If you really, really believe it with all your heart and don't want to let go of that belief, maybe you should date men.

If you believe that women will do you wrong eventually, you will view the relationship through that filter, and you will find "evidence" that confirms your belief, whether it actually exists or not.

Maybe the woman in your post is mature enough to have a decent, friendly relationship with her ex, perhaps for the sake of their children.

In addition, some people don't involve their adult children in their dating life until they make a formal commitment, such as engagement. I tend to err on the side of caution. It's just d@mn awkward to be schmoozy in love with somebody in front of your kids, and then a few months later, when one of the adult kids asks, "Hey, what about so-and-so? You haven't mentioned him/her lately," you must reply, "Um, we broke up."

If she doesn't want her ex and kids to think that she left him for you, that's a valid concern. If they did think so, you could hardly expect those kids to welcome you into their lives with open arms, could you? If they are still dealing with emotional baggage from the divorce, her caution is reasonable.

It sounds like she is taking care to see that her adult children will think positively of you, rather than seeing you as the person who caused her to divorce their dad.

As to why your ex-gf didn't text you while she was spending the evening with her ex and a group of friends: I consider it RUDE to be texting/calling others when I'm out with friends. I prefer to give my attention to those I'm with (since I agreed to spend time with them in the first place). If I was dating a man that expected me to text him while I was out with friends, I would consider that a red flag.

Also, it's not surprising that she didn't want to go with you to places where she knows her ex and mutual friends hang out. Seriously, who WOULD want to go somewhere with a new flame where the ex and former/current mutual pals go on a regular basis? Awkward!!

It sounds like she was keeping her amicable relationship with her ex and their mutual friends separate from her new life that included you -- a wise, considerate, and sane thing to do.

You mention twice that your ex-gf was "selfish," but don't give any specifics; instead, you list what YOU did to be, in your own words, "overly accomodating." The fact that you chose to do those things doesn't make her selfish. It does, however, indicate that you have a tendency to do more in the relationship and then keep score.

It also seems like you had some specific expectations about being introduced to her adult children and being included in her circle of mutual friends she had with her ex, but you don't say if you discussed these expectations openly with her.

<I kept getting the feeling that her reluctance to include me in her friendships was perhaps a bit of her feeling embarrassed to be dating me.>

You relied on your "feelings" about what you perceived and invented reasons/motivations for her in your own mind without doing a reality check (talking honestly with her) to see if you were correct or way off base.

You do come off as jealous and mistrusting. What's more scary though, is that you are assigning motives and intentions to your ex-gf that she probably knew nothing about, and then broke up with her based on those assumptions.

You are right about one thing: that's NOT a healthy relationship.

You may want to find another counselor/therapist who works with you on changing the negative attitudes towards women and on communicating openly about your expectations and desires in a relationship. Maybe when you are able to start trusting "women," you will find you are more attracted to them.

icedtea, you make some good points, as do many here. I want to understand my triggers and red flags.

I do think you make great points about this woman having good reasons for how she behaved. I'll just point out a few things. Selfish--early on in the relationship, she seemed reluctant to drive to me. It was always me wading through traffic, driving and going to her. Sexually, I was always the one pleasing and working for her needs. Emotionally, I was open, she was reserved. I raised these issues with her and she said would try to work on them. To some extent she did. At times we fell back into the same flow--me giving, her taking. I don't mind being a giver, but I wanted something more equal and lasting with her.

As for not wanting to share me with her children, if she is going to say she loves me, then I introduce her to my (adult) kids, and she promises one day she will, but then every time that chance comes, she says it isn't the right time, I begin to get the feeling it is more about me being an embarrassment or something than her concern for her kids.

About texting, she texted with others at times when she was with me. She texted with her friends, her children and occassionally with her ex when with me. I didn't expect her to text me continuously when she was out. I was just asking how her night was going. That was all. I would have at least expected that she text me when she was done for the night. Nope.

I still am squeamish about her sleeping at her ex's house in his bed when he's out of town. Just strange. I don't understand why she couldn't introduce me to at least friend. I don't understand why she would be embarrassed just to be on a date with me and happen to bump into a friend. The explanation is that she is simple enjoying some social life with a date. Single women date... So what?

I may be seeing things with a bad filter (and I want to fix that), but I wanted to see if the group here feels that her behavior is normal or not, so that I can see just how out of whack my filter is.

I appreciate your view, as it is the one that makes me think the most outside of my current perspective.

If you are intimate with her then play her game and enjoy the sweet loving.

If she is not intimate with you then you are being played for a shmuck.

If she's a booty call then go with it and date other people like she's doing and just consider yourself fortunate.

If you're being played you need to end it. Emotions can be very debilitating and you need to control yours so you don't seem needy and get taken advantage of.

If you're not in the Endzone then you're in the Friendzone.

You don't want to be in the Friendzone. You will end up with blue balls and a broken heart. I've learned this the hard way.

So saith Diablo.

If she's your booty call, that's cool. As long as both participants understand the rules.

Otherwise:

1) She's reluctant to introduce you to her kids.
2) She still maintains a close emotional connection to her ex.
3) It sounds like she's embarrassed to have you around her friends / former life.

Run! Don't walk.

There's lots of beautiful, intelligent women out there.

I'd say, if anything, your 'picker' is broken. And partially, the church could be blamed for that, by teaching us emotional immaturity and naivety.

And it's very childish to expect another to change, and to maintain a relationship with another long LONG after it should have been given the death knell. Let go and move on, if that's what's needed (and by all accounts, that's what probably needs to happen with your relationship - unless we're missing some vital information from your posts).

Learn how to be a healthy adult, and how to interact with other healthy adults, and how to see the warning signs in other 'still learning' adults, and how to move on (no harm, no foul) when you find yourself in a relationship with an adult that isn't compatible with you.

Glad I could give you another point of view!

There's also this: many books ("The Rules" and others like it) and dating/relationship coaches, gurus, and self-stlyed experts (Rori Raye and her "Have the Relationship You Want" website is one of the more well-known ones) tell women to act just the way you described: to never drive/fly TO a man but always make him do the traveling, to act cool and emotionally reserved, to wait a long time before introducing him to kids (even adult ones), and to play it cool and not gush all over when bumping into a friend while out on a date.

I read all those books and websites, did all the stupid "Rules" because other women swore that they worked. To this day, the nasty voice in the back of my head spews out The Rules and tells me my relationships will be doomed if I call first, if I take any initiative or do any of the work (like driving to see someone), etc. I try not to listen.

Maybe she is selfish and not into you. Then again, maybe not.

I read a little about this. What you describe, in terms of the "game" played, really reminded me of how she acted. It worked on me, but also made me feel frustrated inside. I did feel like there were games being played but I could never put my finger on it.

I haven't felt that way with other women I've dated. With them, however, I didn't feel so into them either. I don't know if that's because they didn't play games or if I just felt more attracted to this woman. I want to untwine this so I can understand myself better.

One thing I know, this relationship is over for whatever reasons--mine or hers. I just want to learn from it and do better the next time it might happen.

Thanks all.

I don't think you're being all that unreasonable. Your ex-wife was terrible, and you don't want to end up with anyone else like that. I think it's also normal to be careful about women with a lot of expensive needs who expect you to fund them. Who wants that?

Just keep dating until you find the right person and don't give up, unless you're really happier single. That's an option too.

"unless you are happier single"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1eAfpekWgQ

Hahaha! I wasn't going to be the one to say it, but since you did..... It's the truth!

yourself in. I was too willing to please (and for others, I was in a LD relationship for a long time and it has worked out). He was the guy I let get away when I was 20 because he wasn't mormon. We reconnected as his wife was about to move out of the house--though divorce had been in the works for about a year.

After 4 years, I quit being so desperate. I had a complete about face when my parents both died. I had lost enough and I didn't feel that losing him would be such a big deal any longer. Before that, I had been desperate. He pulled the same things--like saying he'd call and then wouldn't.

My parents died, I decided my life was a good life and if he wanted to come along for the ride, so be it. Otherwise, he could take a hike. I didn't tell him anything. Four plus years later, he lives with me, he moved to my location, got a job here, is buying a house here. Wants me to live with him full time. I refuse.

I've only met his kids a few times. Can't stand either one of them. He wants my kids to like him. They really don't.

My brother told me--we went on a cruise with him in June--he said, "____ can't get enough of you. He is so afraid to lose you. And you don't need him nearly as much as he needs you."

I think it is in your own outlook. Another thing is she hasn't been divorced as long as you have been. I had been separated 9 years when I got back with this guy. He was just barely separated. It takes time to adjust.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2013 11:51AM by cl2.

Yes, it is.

You do not trust your gut. This is Mormon conditioning. They want you to NOT think for yourself, rather, put your life in the hands of fifteen old guys who don't know you. Let them decide what's right for you based on principle.

"Principles" they make up and constantly change, except for the one that regularly empties your wallet.

Love has to be mysterious or it's not the real deal.

You fell in love (a good thing) with someone who doesn't love you back. Forget what she said, the love is always in the doing not the saying. When speech and action conflict, action is always the truth.

If you married this woman, you might have the experience I did. We had been together five years and married for over a year and I went to a retirement party with him at his work. His coworkers did not know he was married and displayed great surprise.

Another time we went to a dance at his horseback riding club. The women there chatted with me and were shocked to find out my husband was married. They joked, "Why have you been hiding your beautiful wife?"

Why indeed?

Normal people broadcast their status to their friends. If they are in love, they want their friends to know it. If they don't feel the relationship will last, or are in it for the wrong reasons and KNOW it is temporary, they hide it.

It's not about you, friend, it is about them and their character. This woman probably just liked the sex but wanted to keep her options open for other men because

SHE'S NOT THAT INTO YOU.

Most of us who have been older and single know this happens all the time. It is happening to you and after "half a decade", which means only five years, you think there's something wrong with you.

Subtract from the five years all the time you have spent being faithful to this long distance woman. Now subtract the one year after your split where you may have been dining, dancing and screwing, but you weren't really emotionally available.

Now you have left what? Two years?

Going through women by dating is exhausting. You can start to feel like you are the star of Groundhog Day with all these same conversations. PRetty soon you can't remember which one had the uncle who skis and which one has the blind child.

Stop it! Start developing your own interests and a satisfying, full life as a single. Instead of hitting three singles dances a week, spend your time volunteering at the community garden, performing at the nursing home, or walking dogs at the shelter. Get into something you care about, a cause or a population that needs help of some kind. Take a meditation class, go to a new church every week until you find one you like (note - one YOU LIKE not one who has attractive women).

When you become a happier man as an individual, you will naturally radiate a confident, comfortable energy that invites respect. Your girlfriend will say, "I noticed how kind he was with the children at the hospital...."

Your Mormonism has given you bad ideas about women and yourself. The path to fixing the mind that projects neediness is to stop worrying about finding a partner and start thinking about mentoring a young person, planting a tree, fostering an animal, taking maybe an she-free year to firmly plant yourself in happiness as a single person.

I advise you to read Julia Cameron's book "The Artist's Way" and see if you can't find within yourself an exciting landscape to explore.

Then you can realize that with each passing day you are becoming more of who you were meant to be and, as a side benefit, more attractive to the kind of woman you want.

You deserve a woman you love and who loves you back. That does take more time than a couple of years, but in the meantime, create a great life for yourself and do something new every week!


Anagrammy

If a woman is not introducing you to her circle of friends after six months of dating, there is something wrong. I think that you did a wise thing by cutting your losses with her.

Anagrammy is giving you some good advice, above. Never forget, you get to choose. You need to develop confidence in yourself that you can make good decisions regarding your friendships with women.

A. What Anagrammy said. As usual. Great advice.

B. I wanted to just add one thing: When someone is really, really into you and they WANT to be with you, that person will close the fucking deal.

I have seen people go from flitting about in polyamorous relationships to married and monogamous three months later. Why? The poly people were just playing around.

I confess, years ago, I was right where you are. I'd get dumped (or do the dumping, didn't matter) and would spending months Monday-morning quarterbacking the entire relationship, telling myself I was only trying to learn about myself so I could do better next time. It was all bullshit and I was wasting my time, spinning my wheels over dudes who just weren't all that into me. Every once in a while -- maybe once a decade or so -- I meet someone with whom it just clicks. There's no games. There's no wondering. There's no doubt. There's no second-guessing. Dude just makes it clear and obvious through action (not words) that he's into me and wants to be with me. And when both people feel the same way about each other, it's freakin' magic. When they don't, it's what you ended up with: Two people who liked each other well enough, cared about one another, but just weren't really committed. You know what lack of commitment is? That person just isn't all that into you.

So stop it. Stop grinding yourself down about this. You probably didn't really mess it up. It's probably not about you at all, or not nearly as much as you might think. You never really know what other people have going on in their lives that are mitigating circumstances. So, please take Anagrammy's advice and go be awesome at some interest of yours and stop worrying about dating and building up a long-term relationship. Focus on being the best you that you can be and maybe try to make some new friends here and there. Those friends will know single women and your hobbies/interests will put you in front of like-minded women. One day you'll be having a perfectly normal conversation with a platonic friend and five minutes later, you'll be ripping each other clothes off. And it'll feel right. And natural. And normal. As if you BOTH want to be with each other and you BOTH feel like you are better people when you are with the other.

Also, remember that there are many men and women who like to play games, and there are many that don't like to play games. You get to hold out for someone with similar values and world views (especially about game playing) as you do, they do exist. There are plenty of women out there wondering when they will find someone who won't play stupid games.

Take time for yourself and really heal.

When you realize that the relationship that is the most important for you is the relationship between you and you, then you won't hold others (even strangers) responsible for your happiness. It isn't selfish, it is about knowing that you can handle anything that comes your way.

Make note of what knocked you off balance in that relationship. Those are the things that your subconscious mind had held onto for your "protection". Your subconscious mind is all about keeping you safe, but some things need to be let go of and no longer serve you.

I hate to disagree with Anagrammy and Dogzilla, since I usually love their posts -- lots of experience and wise advice.

It's entirely possible that your ex-gf wasn't that into you. It's also possible that she was trying to play things cool or follow some (bad) dating advice like "The Rules." The point is, you'll never know because you never honestly discussed your feelings, expectations, or perceptions with this woman.

Whatever you decide to change about yourself to make your romantic life more successful, I hope that open communication is high on the list. Also, I've learned that a person can make himself/herself crazy and miserable by interpreting/assigning motives or intentions to another person's actions or behavior. If you keep doing so, at least do a reality check with your partner to see if you're correct.

Re: Anagrammy's advice about "exploring landscapes" --

I found that when I focused on other things like volunteer work, hobbies, and service, I did just great. I was having a great time "becoming who I was meant to be" -- but as soon as I started to get involved with a dating partner, all my problems came roaring back because I hadn't addressed them. It's a very good thing to develop yourself by trying new things. Just don't expect it to fix your trust issues, jealousy, or whatever. Those things don't change unless you work specifically on them.

It's like Mormons who expect all their romantic issues to vanish because they pay, pray, and obey. Until you work on the real problems, your dating life won't get better.