Sorry if I'm repeating anything already discussed. I came on to this thread late. Susie Q asked how lawyers would argue this case as child abuse.

(It was a theoretical question people! Raising the issue that many parents punished children harshly in ages past is not the same as condoning it.)

Here's a sample statute (Utah's) on child abuse. The woman's use of hot sauce and cold showers would qualify as child abuse because it is intended as physical torture that does not cause serious injury. The fact it's done as torture, is the child abuse, whether or not the child is injured because the injury is that the child knows he's being tortured through physical punishments that terrorize him.

http://law.justia.com/utah/codes/2006/title76/76_05019.html

Cristina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry if I'm repeating anything already discussed.
> I came on to this thread late. Susie Q asked how
> lawyers would argue this case as child abuse.
>
> (It was a theoretical question people! Raising
> the issue that many parents punished children
> harshly in ages past is not the same as condoning
> it.)
>
> Here's a sample statute (Utah's) on child abuse.
> The woman's use of hot sauce and cold showers
> would qualify as child abuse because it is
> intended as physical torture that does not cause
> serious injury. The fact it's done as torture, is
> the child abuse, whether or not the child is
> injured because the injury is that the child knows
> he's being tortured through physical punishments
> that terrorize him.
>
> http://law.justia.com/utah/codes/2006/title76/76_0
> 5019.html

It depends some on how cold the water was too.If it was icy, I would agree. If it was cool, less so. The kid's screams were horrendous, but I used to emabarrass my mom by screaming bloody murder when she washed my hair or trimmed my nails.Anyone listening would have thought I was being tortured, when in fact, I wasn;t being hurt at all. I was just afraid of getting soap in my eyes or getting cut. Don't even ask how I acted when I got a shot. I'm sure all of that will come into it too.

I just watched it again. There's a rack full of heavy winter jackets right next to them as she screams at him and he's wearing long a long sleeve hooded sweat shirt when she says, "Get undressed right now, you're getting a cold shower." It's in Alaska. I'm betting the pipes were freezing cold.

Cristina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just watched it again. There's a rack full of
> heavy winter jackets right next to them as she
> screams at him and he's wearing long a long sleeve
> hooded sweat shirt when she says, "Get undressed
> right now, you're getting a cold shower." It's in
> Alaska. I'm betting the pipes were freezing cold.

That is likely, but how would you prove it? I have a feeling that will come into it and it will be the mother's word against kid's. Beside cold is subjective. We have a condo pool and people are contantly claiming it is too cold while others think it is great.It will be an interesting case. At the minimum, I hope she gets some ral help dealing with the kid.

The jury can consider her own words to Dr Phil (and to the child on the tape) that he gets cold showers for discipline and can consider his screams and simply chose to believe that it was cold enough to torture him.

It's actually a very easy case in practice though I see how it seems difficult in theory. There are all sorts of admissions from her and there's the reaction of the child. It's not scientific proof. It's only theoretical proof really in any case. Though its proof beyond a reasonable doubt that can mean just the jury believing the reasonable impression given by the video itself (including what the mom says about what she's doing). The audience reaction on Dr Phil is a great sample of what the jury would likely feel.

This will most likely end with a plea agreement. Nobody wants to have children testify unless absolutely necessary. I don't know what the law states in AK, but it is likely she will get probation. I'm sure she has no criminal record since she was allowed to adopt. In my jurisdiction, this case could easily be a misd..

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cristina Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I just watched it again. There's a rack full
> of
> > heavy winter jackets right next to them as she
> > screams at him and he's wearing long a long
> sleeve
> > hooded sweat shirt when she says, "Get
> undressed
> > right now, you're getting a cold shower." It's
> in
> > Alaska. I'm betting the pipes were freezing
> cold.
>
> That is likely, but how would you prove it? I have
> a feeling that will come into it and it will be
> the mother's word against kid's. Beside cold is
> subjective. We have a condo pool and people are
> contantly claiming it is too cold while others
> think it is great.It will be an interesting case.
> At the minimum, I hope she gets some ral help
> dealing with the kid.

The help she needs, IMO, is with dealing with her self, not the child.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cristina Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry if I'm repeating anything already
> discussed.
> > I came on to this thread late. Susie Q asked
> how
> > lawyers would argue this case as child abuse.
> >
> > (It was a theoretical question people! Raising
> > the issue that many parents punished children
> > harshly in ages past is not the same as
> condoning
> > it.)
> >
> > Here's a sample statute (Utah's) on child abuse.
>
> > The woman's use of hot sauce and cold showers
> > would qualify as child abuse because it is
> > intended as physical torture that does not
> cause
> > serious injury. The fact it's done as torture,
> is
> > the child abuse, whether or not the child is
> > injured because the injury is that the child
> knows
> > he's being tortured through physical
> punishments
> > that terrorize him.
> >
> >
> http://law.justia.com/utah/codes/2006/title76/76_0
>
> > 5019.html
>
> It depends some on how cold the water was too.If
> it was icy, I would agree. If it was cool, less
> so. The kid's screams were horrendous, but I used
> to emabarrass my mom by screaming bloody murder
> when she washed my hair or trimmed my nails.Anyone
> listening would have thought I was being tortured,
> when in fact, I wasn;t being hurt at all. I was
> just afraid of getting soap in my eyes or getting
> cut. Don't even ask how I acted when I got a shot.
> I'm sure all of that will come into it too.


Along these lines, when I worked in a Free Clinic with babies, it was not uncommon for the babies to cry and scream, and be inconsolable while being weighed and measured and not make a peep when they got the shot sometime later! Go figure!

I remember screaming BEFORE anything happened when I was in trouble.:-) My kids did that also.

NOT CONDONING the discipline of the mother, just commenting on bona dea's comments.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cristina Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sorry if I'm repeating anything already
> > discussed.
> > > I came on to this thread late. Susie Q
> asked
> > how
> > > lawyers would argue this case as child abuse.
>
> > >
> > > (It was a theoretical question people!
> Raising
> > > the issue that many parents punished children
> > > harshly in ages past is not the same as
> > condoning
> > > it.)
> > >
> > > Here's a sample statute (Utah's) on child
> abuse.
> >
> > > The woman's use of hot sauce and cold showers
> > > would qualify as child abuse because it is
> > > intended as physical torture that does not
> > cause
> > > serious injury. The fact it's done as
> torture,
> > is
> > > the child abuse, whether or not the child is
> > > injured because the injury is that the child
> > knows
> > > he's being tortured through physical
> > punishments
> > > that terrorize him.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://law.justia.com/utah/codes/2006/title76/76_0
>
> >
> > > 5019.html
> >
> > It depends some on how cold the water was
> too.If
> > it was icy, I would agree. If it was cool, less
> > so. The kid's screams were horrendous, but I
> used
> > to emabarrass my mom by screaming bloody murder
> > when she washed my hair or trimmed my
> nails.Anyone
> > listening would have thought I was being
> tortured,
> > when in fact, I wasn;t being hurt at all. I was
> > just afraid of getting soap in my eyes or
> getting
> > cut. Don't even ask how I acted when I got a
> shot.
> > I'm sure all of that will come into it too.
>
>
> Along these lines, when I worked in a Free Clinic
> with babies, it was not uncommon for the babies to
> cry and scream, and be inconsolable while being
> weighed and measured and not make a peep when they
> got the shot sometime later! Go figure!
>
> I remember screaming BEFORE anything happened when
> I was in trouble.:-) My kids did that also.
>
> NOT CONDONING the discipline of the mother, just
> commenting on bona dea's comments.


I'm not condoning it either. Just saying that screaming in a child doesn't necessarily mean suffering. I was lightly slapped my nephew's hand. He was just a baby and was doing something dangerous. I barely touched him. He screamed bloody murder. I think he was mad that he couldn't play with the broken glass.He definitely was not hurt.

Sometimes my brother would scream until he started laughing. I don't know why, but I suppose that if it hurts bad enough while its happening, you just run out of cries. Unfortunately, if you laugh while being whipped, it can get very ugly.

The intent was for the water to be punishingly cold. I don't think the degree matters as much as the intent. A lukewarm shower is not punishing, similarly, a bit of black pepper sprinkled on the tongue is not punishing. I'm going to assume that the temperature of the water was equal in terms of discomfort to the heat of the hot sauce.

Actually, the effect on the child might not necessarily be important. The important thing would be the intent of the mother. Did she intend the child to suffer physical and or emotional distress?

Then if she did, she was using torture.

Two Mormon women in the UK who punished children with hot pepper sauce were found guilty and, I think, given jail time last year, I believe.

Is their a sub-culture within Mormonism of women using hot pepper sauce as a way of torturing children?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2011 08:49PM by matt.

The elements of a crime require the intention to commit the act, but does not require the intention that the act be torture/assualt/murder etc. The intent of the perpetrator only requires intent to commit the act not that she intended the consequences of the act.

That's why sexual abuse, for example, is abuse even if the perpetrator intended it as "love."

If she intended the child to be forced into a cold shower or to have hot sauce forced in his mouth, those are the acts she must have intended to be found guilty whether or not she intended it to be perceived as torture by the child.

The degree of her knowledge or intention to cause the specific harm it would inflict then qualifies for more severe criminal penalties (felonies).

Cristina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The elements of a crime require the intention to
> commit the act, but does not require the intention
> that the act be torture/assualt/murder etc. The
> intent of the perpetrator only requires intent to
> commit the act not that she intended the
> consequences of the act.
>
> That's why sexual abuse, for example, is abuse
> even if the perpetrator intended it as "love."
>
> If she intended the child to be forced into a cold
> shower or to have hot sauce forced in his mouth,
> those are the acts she must have intended to be
> found guilty whether or not she intended it to be
> perceived as torture by the child.
>
> The degree of her knowledge or intention to cause
> the specific harm it would inflict then qualifies
> for more severe criminal penalties (felonies).


Yes, that's the point I was making. It is the intent of the alleged perpetrator that is important.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/28/20110128alaska-woman-charged-after-dr-phil-appearance.html

Thanks for the clarification.

Is the law the same in Alaska as in Utah? I presume so, but I don't know the answer.

So, if it goes to court, would the jury would have to agree on the discipline as torture to find her guilty?

I'm of the opinion that it could very well settle out of court in a plea bargain to save it from upsetting the Russians anymore than they all ready are, but that's just a guess.

I am also of the opinion that this case was not just propelled by the Dr. Phil show, but because the children are Russian adoptions. They may be putting pressure on Alaska to prosecute. Just a guess, of course.

Every state has it's own criminal code but most states are very similar in general terms. Because abused children were often abused in ways that did severe emotional harm (through terrorizing/torture) but did not visible physical harm, states amended their laws over time to include acts that cause severe emotional harm or that are torture. It's likely that the wording is very similar from Utah. I wish the article had cited the exact charges with language from the statute under which she is charged.

I think what the jury needs to find is that the child suffered serious (not even severe) emotional harm. All that requires is one psychologist testifying of the effect this incident would have; especially on a child whose already by rejected or abandoned by biological parents; and that this child is suffering aftereffects of being frightened this way by the parent.

Other options are the jury finding that there were lacerations or burns to his mouth. (the statute says, "any burn, including burns inflicted by hot water, or those caused by placing a hot object upon the skin or body of the child;) or "any other condition which imperils the child's health or welfare and which is not a serious physical injury." Hot sauce may imperil health or welfare simply by causing burns in the mouth or being dangerous because he could have breathed it into his lungs or if accidentally swallowed.

Yes, I expect it would settle mainly because if she pleads guilty she'd get a lesser sentence (and counseling). If she risks the anger of the judge by continuing to believe she did nothing wrong and is convicted she could get some jail time.

I do think Russia has something to do with it. They've suspended adoptions to the US a few times already. But prosecutors had little choice but to bring charges with the video tape..

... it is now which is a sign that human sensibilities have evolved since, say, the Stone Age from whence more than a few posters on this thread obviously came.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 12:11PM by Timothy.

Ohhh, she got arrested? Yayyyy!!!

Ya know what the sad thing is? That she went this long before getting charged. The screams of that child are not to be dismissed. Her is terrified, he is freezing cold, he is in agony. Not only that but she is screaming at him like she's trying to drown out the sound of his cries.
And if I recall correctly, his "crime" wasn't even worth the punishment.

I hope that he is removed from that home and never sees her again. At least then we'll know that his secret prayers are answered.

http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/child-abuse/alaska/

Alaska Child Abuse Laws.

Code Section 47.17.010, et seq.

What Constitutes Abuse Physical injury or neglect, mental injury (injury to emotional well-being or intellectual or psychological capacity of child as evidenced by an observable and substantial impairment on child's ability to function); sexual abuse/exploitation, maltreatment

Mandatory Reporting Required By Practitioners of healing arts; school teachers; social workers; peace officers; child care providers; administrative officers of institutions; paid employees of counseling or crisis intervention programs; child fatality review teams

Basis of Report of Abuse/neglect Have reasonable cause to suspect that child has suffered harm as a result of abuse or neglect

To Whom Reported Department of Health and Social Services
Penalty for Failure to Report or False Reporting Class B misdemeanor



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2011 10:08PM by Rebeckah.

Beagley's husband, Gary Beagley, is an Anchorage police officer. He's not under investigation, said the department spokesman, Lt. Dave Parker.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/28/20110128alaska-woman-charged-after-dr-phil-appearance.html#ixzz1COR27YFe

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

When I watched this on Dr Phil, the husband was shown as aware of what his wife was doing and that he was behind it 100%.

IMO. he is just as guilty or maybe even more so, since as a Trained Police Officer he ought to know that what they were doing to this kid was child-abuse.

Of course, is he were convicted the family may lose their primary means of support...but....He is just as guilty as she is.

All I can say is that was about the most horrible thing I've ever seen, and the mom should have all her kids taken away and spend some serious time in jail.

http://www.adn.com/2011/01/28/1673257/hot-sauce-wielding-mom-went-on.html

She is from Anchorage. She lives in my city! *sigh*

I tested the water temperature this morning - it came out of the faucet at 9 °C, or 48 °F. It isn't much warmer in the summer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 01:07AM by koolman2.

wow.... it really was not the actual cold shower or the hot sauce, although that must not be fun. It was her damn words and his reaction. You are watching this tape and she is screaming at him and she is asking him what happens when scenario A presents itself, and he answers B. He understands, so is there really a need for more screaming and punishment? Why does this crazy woman needs to be repeating this over and over?

You watch this tape and you realize that the kids did something wrong but he understands, and she is the one that is just crazy through and through.

I got spanked as a kid, belt and all. Not once, but lots. I had some very bad spankings in fact, but my parents never acted this crazy. I got spanked when I stole some neighbors toys, then I was made to return them and apologize. I got spanked when I threw a brick on this boys head because he would not play with me (I liked him). Usually I was bad. MY parents always explained why I was going to get spanked, calmly. Then they used to comfort me after wards. I actually believe that it did hurt them more than me.

I never spanked my kids. That is because I got spanked and I don't want that for them. But really, it is not what she is doing, it is her actions, that she feels she is teaching this boy something, thinking she is teaching him some high moral ground on telling the truth, when she is so far off the deep end of crazy it is scary. Does she not see it?

Is this a common Mormon punishment? Im hoping Dr Phil does an update now soon. Get the wife to watch sincw we missed the first part last time

as punishment.. and on kinds a LOT younger than this one.

She thought she was a good mother... But yeah, if her kids or grandkids were having a temper tantrum she'd dowse them with cold water.. I never got that one, but I did get the hotsauce once when I sassed my Grandmother. I don't know if it's more common among mormons, but I can say that my nevermo grandmother used both of these punishmnets.

My mom once threatened to pull my teeth out with pliers because I bit my sister. It was terrifying. I remember her holding the pliers and saying, "Now open your mouth..." But of course it was just a threat, and she never would have actually done it.
This is so much worse...it's an ongoing pattern of emotional abuse. The poor kid knows he's done something wrong, and knows there's nothing he can do to make it better. He tries to hide it because he's terrified of being punished, and he gets punished worse for lying. She doesn't give him any way out, he just keeps getting punished by this woman who doesn't feel any compassion for him. She never even talks to him about what he can do to stay out of trouble at school - it's just punish, punish, punish. It's sick.

A 2005 CIA manual refers to the Transport Canada publication "Survival in Cold Waters: Staying Alive" to set the limits on cold water exposure to reportedly soften up Al-Qaeda suspects.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4035180

I think that if you didn't watch the video, you can't make a comment that has much merit.

This isn't as much about what the mother did, as it is about what the child experienced.

Trying to say things about how it was back in your day. Or that you screamed for attention, is just silly.

If you watched the kid's reaction, it was mental abuse. It wasn't a one time thing. He knew what was coming, feared it greatly, and it was used on him purposely to traumatize him. Watch the video. I can't imagine that you can disagree with that.

So to all who like to excuse the Mom, picture a kid who is greatly afraid of dogs. Now picture this mormon mommy having a kid that is afraid of dogs, hates being near them, and every time he gets in trouble at school, he gets locked in the bathroom with the dog.

Now we can all sit around and say that when you were a kid such and such happened, or we can watch the photos of Guantanamo where dogs are used to intimidate and torture, and think that it is wrong to do to a kid.

Saying that lots of kids like dogs, and dogs aren't so bad, wouldn't be the point. The point would be that a kid who WAS extremely scared of a dog, showed obvious signs of mental anguish near the dog, had a dog used to punish him. That is mental cruelty.

This kid showed so much fear and mental anguish in that shower. Much more than I ever showed at a spanking with a stick on a bare butt. In many states, part of the legal definition of physical abuse is- did it leave a mark. Spankings on a bare butt with a wooden stick leaves marks. Yet that clear sign of illegal abuse was nowhere near as traumatizing to me as this kids shower was for him.

Who knows what it was that he didn't like, it's not for us to determine, just as we wouldn't need to determine exactly why a kid is afraid of a dog. We just have to know that they were terrified, and it was used to mentally torture the kid.

I don't care if you didn't like getting haircuts as a kid, or your finger nails cut. And don't care what made you scream as a kid as retribution towards your parent. That's all silly talk.

What I do care about is if your parent took something that you were extremely traumatized about, and used it for routine punishment on you. Did your mom cut your hair, just to punish you? Or was it because you needed a haircut? If you didn't clean your room, did your mom menace you with a pair of scissors and cut hair off for not cleaning?

It's one thing to be a kid and be afraid of a hair cut, and another thing to have a sadistic mom who uses that against you to torture you.

Watch the video, the kid was tortured. It doesn't matter why he was fearful. It only matters that he was, and his so called mom was using it against him. Over and over, knowing the damage that it was causing.

Fucking bitch.

I was just thinking that fear is a dreadful method to obtain obedience. A lot of parents use fear as a parenting tool but it turns on you -- I know from personal experience. You fear your parent until you figure out how to get away from him/her and then you simply don't care anymore. It took me years to raise myself after I got away from my abusive father because he'd never actually taught me anything except to fear him.

This woman isn't teaching her child -- she's dominating him and I rather suspect she dominates all of them. Poor kids.