I just finished listening to the excellent Mormon Expression podcast series on Mark Hoffman.

I was still in my underoos when the Mark Hoffman deal went down. I have very vague recollections of it being a big deal at the time, but due to my age, wasn't aware of the details. That being said, I'm seeking feedback from the more "seasoned" participants on the board. What were your reactions to the Hoffman affair? What was the TBM response? Did people leave the church over this (due to the obvious imPlications it had regarding the claim of what it means to be a prophet)? Any other reactions/takeaways that are worth mentioning for those of us that weren't paying attention to this in real time?

Failed 'inspiration', but LDS, Inc. knows how to spin Anything, therefore, it was MORE PRACTICE for the PR Dept.

Did any leave? Who Knows?!

Two words should stand out after the incident.

Priesthood Discernment.

For clarity's sake, it was Steve Christensen who was the victim of one of the bombings, not "Steve Sheets." Gary Sheets was Kathy's husband and the likely target of the bomb that took her life.

(Oops, meant as a response to BG)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 04:34PM by flanders.

Sorry if my post created confusion by not adding his last name. I knew Steve growing up and was good friends with others in Mac's family when I was younger. I would add some more detail about this and how I knew Mark Hoffman and his personality if this was a secure site, since it isn't I'll just say Mark was obviously twisted and deceiving as soon as he returned from his mission, he constantly was lying and making up stories, he had no sense of morality.

I knew Mark Hoffman, and his ability to fool President Kimball with his falsified book of mormon characters when I knew Mark Hoffman was a fraud was a major force in making believe the Church was not true. The bombings and murder of Steve and Kathy Sheets and the coverup of the church reinforced this, people did not leave the Church in droves, but it did effect a large number of already dissatisfied members that were already associated with Sunstone Foundation, Dialog etc.

The beauty of being an LDS Sheeple is that when things like the Mark Hoffman scandal happen you're so busy raising children, cleaning the house, mowing the lawn, making jam, preparing your next lesson, getting ready for PTA board meeting, doing your visiting teaching, fixing dinner for your neighbor (who just had her sixth baby), tending the kids of your neighbor(the one with the six kids), hanging wallpaper in your mother-in-laws bedroom, that it is just a news story and you momentarily feel really sad for the Sheets family and kind of scared that bombs are going off in Salt Lake City.

That was my life at the time and that's how I remember the event. I didn't think deeply about the spiritual ramifications of the event, I didn't think deeply about much of anything. I was busy putting one foot in front of the other and making it through one more day.

Same situation for me. I have a faint recollection of it in the news and since it wasn't discussed at church...or maybe it was--I had three little children at the time...I never paid any attention to it. At that time I was sure that whatever the prophet did/said was inspired.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think being so busy trying to be perfect spouses, parents, and holders of callings, makes it easy for many members to ignore hard, difficult things. Life in fast motion inside the church makes problems articulated from the outside turn into a hypnotic blur.

I was a teenager in seminary at the time. My dad was a CES guy and I think of it as the moment we started parting ways intellectually. I don't remember the details, but I do remember him saying something about salamanders simply being a 19th cen. synonym for angels. And I remember thinking, wait . . . really?? If I'd had the internet then, I may not have gone on a mission.

But I don't remember it being a big deal in our ward. I wasn't aware of anyone leaving over it. And it was a much bigger deal than Hans Mattsson.

Maybe its because of my ignorance, but I find it hard to believe that a mormon dad would go around blowing coworkers up with letter bombs instead of the elite in a proven mafia organization.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 02:25PM by homoerectus.

I was on my mission at the time. I was in the UK, so we didn't hear much about it. My MP briefly referred to it at Zone Conference and suggested it was further proof the church was true and satan was doing his best. I believed him of course, hadn't learnt to think for myself then.

Fast forward nearly 20 years and the whole Mark Hoffman saga was on my list of issues that made me realise the church wasn't 'true' at all.

All of your questions and many more can be answered by this fantastic book. YES! many left the church over this topic. Particularly LDS law enforcement who investigated and several journalists.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mormon-Murders-Steven-Naifeh/dp/1250025893



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 02:47PM by whiskeytango.

The whole Mark Hoffman affair was the first chink in the armor that was my testimony. My initial reaction was "Why in the hell didn't any of the first presidency or 12 assholes receive inspiration that he was scamming them"? I even wrote a letter to the first presidency asking that very question, to which I received a form letter that I am sure all questioning members received. It did nothing to alleviate my concerns and this incident eventually led to my disaffection with and exit from the morg.

Of course once I learned all the other problems with the church like the history, Joseph Smith's sexual deviancy, changes of the first vision, and the list goes on and on, I was able to file the Hoffman ordeal in the "That Makes Sense Now" file and move on with my life outside of the church.

For me the Mark Hoffman incident was my first serious question to be later followed up with the BOA.

I would recomend you watch the movie "The sting"
It touches on the same mind set

Sorry, one "ef" please...

FAIR thrives on these little errors by pointing out what dumb clucks ex-Mormons are...

Two other books on the subject are "Salamander" and "A Gathering of the Saints."

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1077652.Salamander

http://www.amazon.com/Gathering-Saints-Story-Murder-Deceit/dp/0671651129

I'm BIC but had never heard of this until an investigator mentioned it to me while I was serving a mission. I (blush) just batted it back to him as anti-Mormon lies!

I'd bet good money that 99% of my fellow Brits, attending sacrament meeting this Sunday will have never heard of the whole episode.

My favorite part was when Oaks spent a conference talk discussing how a salamander was really an angel. This happened after the so-called Salamander Letter was released but before it was shown to be a fraud. So, he assumed the letter was true when it was not and tried to explain away the embarrassment to the church.

Also interesting was the fact that the Tanners pointed out that the letter was probably a forgery even though it was in their interest to have it be a true historic document. So they assumed it was false even, if true, it would have helped their cause.

So which side had the most integrity? Which side had the "inspiration?"

(Tanner's website)

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no115.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 09:22PM by jpt.

At the time, I was a TBM and didn't pay much attention, assuming that the church leaders were handling it the best they could under the circumstances.

Years later, I spotted the "Mormon Murders" in a used bookstore for a dollar.

I bought it, thinking I had purchased a true cime novel that would show the church helping the police convict Hofmann. WHAT A SHOCK! This book was my first clue that the church was led by a pack of cowardly, self-serving frauds.

I didn't know about it until I read the book. I was REALLY upset by the book, but my concentration was on saving a dying marriage at the time. It wasn't until later that it all fell into place and I went 'AAAAH!!"

It bothered me quite a bit. At the very first I didn't think much of the role Hinckley and others played, I thought maybe the church leaders were victims and nothing more...but with time I read some books about it and it really made me wonder. Why couldn't these spiritual giants see through this guy? The church leaders looked terrible.

It was a chink in the armor for me.

I tried to get some TBM friends to read Salamander but they refused. They figured it had to just be another anti-mormon book.

I never met anyone who left the church over it. I think the leaders learned that people won't leave no matter what happens at the top, just "bow your head and say yes" sheeple.
Oh well.

When I read about the Mark Hoffman scandal, I never said a personal prayer again. I figured if the top 15 - you know,the ones who speak for the Lord - prayed about it and were fooled, then why should I - a peon - ever expect anything different?

Funny thing is, I get the same results now as I did when I diligently prayed every day.

I was in high school when this all happened. I read a book about it in 1988 before I went on my mission. It was always in the back of my head that Hoffman was able to dupe Pres. Kimball and that Pres. Kimball wasn't warned by the spirit that Hoffman was duping him. I thought about this often in the MTC and on my mission. I would waffle back and forth wondering if my leaders did get inspiration from the spirit or if they didn't. I justified the whole Pres. Kimball not knowing Hoffman was a fraud by deciding that the Lord gave Hoffman enough rope to hang himself with.
I remember one interesting thing I read in that book. Mark Hoffman's dad prayed about the whole thing and said he got a witness from the spirit that his son was innocent. Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

At the time Mark Hoffman was in the news, people were talking about Joseph Smith's alleged conversations with a white salamander. It was hilarious. Some church apologists claimed that a white salamander was just a metaphor for a spirit. Then it all turned out to be as big a hoax as The Book of Abraham. Good times.

I think this all came to a head in the autumn of 1985? I was already way, way gone from TSCC by that time.

I remember trying to engage my TBM father in conversation about it sometime later, but he wouldn't allow the conversation to go beyond his stating "it was just one bad guy". His reaction seemed typical to me, of the church sheeple.

1985. MH in a Member's Only jacket. Cruising the streets of SLC in his blue t-top Toyota MR2. Bomb in back. Rolling in LDS money. Jamming to Billy Joel's 'My Life' on the tape deck. "You can speak your mind, but not on my time...boom!"

God I miss the eighties.

The scariest thing about the Hoffman murders is that the church was able to crush the legal system in Utah to avoid the embarrassment of the prophet testifying that he was fooled in an area where clearly he was acting as a prophet.

Reinforcing the creepiness of Mormon Utah theocracy=-the church also prevented embarrassing testimony coming forth in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping trial. They didn't want the defense claiming that if the perp hears God speak, he's no different than claims made by Mormon prophets.

They didn't want an open debate in either case which would shine the light of reason on the whole subject of priesthood keys and revelation, voices from heaven, and what defines one as a lunatic and a rapist, or just a broken person chosen by God to show us that a guy like Brian Mitchell or Joseph Smith can do more for mankind than anyone except Jesus (maybe).

When in fact, they supersede the teachings of Jesus and replace them with the teachings of a pedophile adulterous conman whose teachings are much closer to those of Brian Mitchell than Jesus Christ.

Anagrammy

+1

I Had NO idea that the Church interfered with the Smart case! It was that awful case of kidnap/rape right? Living so far away from Utah we don't get that news. I knew of the case, but that was all! Goodnight, that is AWFUL!!

http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=yAq288Qfb0WUwdS5Yh8Er8$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtSIHnPfqG0jxikw6INOsLKWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

Mark: And these are the characters that Joseph sent to Professorn Anton...

SWK .... Er I'm senile ...er plant a garden Luke ...er Boyd look at these ... quite hiding back there and come take a peek.

I was already out, but I remember being mildly interested when Hoffman found some new "antiquity". It seemed the more he found, the weirder they got. The salamander sounded so folk-tale-ish. I remember seeing a picture of Kimball peering down at one of the great discoveries.

Hoffman began to look like a fraud to me when he kept making these incredible finds. I've studied enough history and prowled enough antique malls to know that incredible things are out there. But the probability of one man finding so many so quickly just didn't add up.

I wish he'd been executed.

Over and over I heard, "It doesn't effect my testimony".

THAT WAS A REAL WTF Moment for me. I was living in cali.,(Bic,NEVER had learned this)Pragnant w/my 4th child. The news 1st was talking about the bombings. I had an aunt who said it was satan trying to thwort Gods work.(even than that sounded wierd)Than they talked about the salamander letter-I'd never heard of,so I ask my H. He quite nonchallantly explained the story of the white salamander!Like it was nothing! TO ME it was like the ceiling was caving in! But like the other women,I stuffed it down!