When I was a TBM I FULLY believed in God, Faith and Prayer. The last several years we have faced some awful times and frankly wondering if it's all part of the Mormon hype or if there really is God, Faith and Prayer. Are all my perceived spiritual experiences just perceived or were they real? Not sure what to think or even where to start to construct my true feelings or beliefs.

If there is a God, he's non-interventionist. What happens to good people and arseholes just doesn't add up.

If there is a God like being out there you can guarantee he doesn't give a crap about religion.

God exists in the saying of it.

Do like the lost sheep. If you remember the parable of the lost sheep and shepherd who went looking for it. Pretend that you are the sheep and God is the shepherd. The shepherd is looking for you, not you for the shepherd. While you're waiting for him, make some bahing (praying, but not desperately) and keep in places where you'll be easy to find.

If you let God solve your problems with God, and take it easy.

Well you get to choose now. That's what is great about confronting all the information and not being afraid. It's your decision to believe or not.

Three weeks ago, at least 1,429 civilians near Damascus, Syria, including 426 children, were gassed to death. There have been several disturbing news reports and related videos on TV and the Internet about the heinous killings since Aug. 21.

Tragically, the larger Syrian civil war has resulted in an estimated 100,000 deaths so far and some two million refugees. Of course, that violent conflict is one of countless during human history that have wiped out an estimated 300 million people.

Meanwhile in the Celestial Kingdom near the Latter-day Saint star Kolob, Mormonism's omniscient and omnipotent Heavenly Father, manager of the universe, has done squat to assist Syrian civilians or other innocent people, including kids, from inflicted harm. Conspicuously, 'He' dispatched no angels to earth to protect the vulnerable or comfort those who have suffered terribly.

Of what use is 'God', really?

If we are to believe LDS doctrine, "the Lord" has been VERY concerned that Mormons wear their 'magical' temple underwear, fork over at least 10% of their earnings to the multi-billion-dollar LD$ Church, attend church services (where they hear the same boring concepts ad nauseum), and otherwise follow the Mormon Church's teachings related to "paying, praying, and obeying."

Clearly, 'God' exists in the minds of believers. If you want to believe in some sort of deity, you can create one with your imagination that embodies all the qualities that you think he/she/it/whatever should have.

Enjoy!

"Clearly, 'God' exists in the minds of believers. If you want to believe in some sort of deity, you can create one with your imagination that embodies all the qualities that you think he/she/it/whatever should have."

Now that is something I can get behind and now that I see it written it's exactly what I have done. No judgmental, silly rule making god lives in my head.

No need to decide, you're definitely gonna' find out at some point.

Hey, God! Are you there? Hello?

Hey, could you do something to let me know that you're there? Drop a penny on my computer desk maybe? Okay, how about a feather?

No? Okay, so maybe let me hear your voice. Whisper something in my ear.

Hello?

Can you flash a little lightning in the sky maybe? Create a rainbow? Turn the lights off in my room?

Okay, so how about you send an angel to tell me?

A relative? You know I've lost an awful lot of loved ones in my life. Surely one of them loves me enough to let me know that they're there and that they're okay.

Hello? Anybody? Helloooooo!!!!!!!?????

Nope. Nobody home.

Basically, I've been asking God if He's there for years. I don't know why it took me so long to give up. Heck, I think sometimes I still stop to ask that question, just in case He's in a good mood.

It was during a few crises in my life that I begged for just a little relief and received none, when it slowly began to dawn on me that no one was listening. A few times I reached such a low in my life that I didn't even want to be here anymore. I begged and pleaded and I cried, "Please, I beg of you, just give me a moment's relief to breathe and to gather my strength." Nothing. Silence.

Then that begging and pleading turned into anger. "Do you even care? Is this what you want? Are you getting off on my begging and pleading? Have I begged enough now? Is this enough for you, you !#%$? Hello? Helloooooooo!!!!!???"

Then finally the thought came one day, as I begged and pleaded, "Oh my god. No one's there to listen. There's actually no one there!"

If anyone wants to know how I became an atheist, that was it.

Greyfort, Thank you. I think you summed it up just right. I won't go into the story, but that is basically the point we are at; nobody's home and the lights have been shut off.

I so agree that the beauty of your position now is that YOU get to decide. There is no one shoving something down your throat or in the other part of your anatomy. You are your own master.

Asking questions of those who are CERTAIN they know there is a god, looking into all types of beliefs that different, colorful cultures have created, studying the history of the world, this is your journey. I hope you enjoy it. I certainly have. I found it enlightening, fascinating, and freeing. Go wherever it takes you. The internet makes it easy, comfortable and inexpensive. Come to think of it, the internet makes a very wonderful, benevolent GOD.

Book recommendations both pro and contra

Atheism:

The God Delusion by Richards Dawkins

The End of Faith by Sam Harris

God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens

Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett


Theism:

Modern Physics and Ancient Faith by Stephen Barr

Surprised by Meaning by Alister McGrath

The Last Superstition by Edward Feser

Atheist Delusions by David Bentley Hart


Not really in either category (both authors are atheists, but not of the reductionist Dawkins type):

Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False by Thomas Nagel

The Mind of God: The Scientific Basis for a Rational World by Paul Davies


Enjoy!

It's not really a matter of deciding whether a god or gods exist; rather, deciding whether the available evidence is sufficient to justify belief in such a thing.

Maybe my standards of evidence are too high, but I don't see any good reason to believe in the existence of any gods.

The closest anyone has come to convincing me a god exists is Alan Watts, and his premise isn't that there exists a being separate from reality that created everything except itself, instead that everything is actually one thing dreaming itself in different ways. And that's not really theism.

Both The Fancher Party and the Mormons prayed for success on this day in 1857. Guess who won?
How was it won? By the use of deception, evil intention, and by the battle cry - Gentlemen, do your duty!

Religious leaders killed many innocent people at the witch trials in early America, the land of religious freedom set apart by God which made the founding of Mormonism possible.

It's kinda hard to answer such deep questions.

You have been brain washed since a young child to believe in a gray haired, old white guy who sits on a cloud and watches you do the nasty things you must as you plunder through life.

You need to reprogram your subconcious and exorcise the christian control dynamic embedded in your brain.

I have been using this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvRpcvp6TjE

If anyone else knows of some good reprogramming sessions on utube let me know.

Disclaimer: I know this is unsceintific blah blah blah but I am going for the placebo effect which has been proven to work so :P.

Good things happen to good people.
Good things happen to bad people.
Bad things happen to good people.
Bad things happen to bad people.

Gosh and golly, it's just like god isn't there.

If there is a God no one knows anything about it, and if they claim they do know they are just making it up.

What we do know is the Biblical God drowns babies and animals because the adults do not love him enough. He watchs pedophiles rape children and does nothing about it. He had his own son killed and he is looking forward to burning a bunch of his childred to death for not loving him enough.

Screw that guy.

There is plenty of proof that man invented God. That is why God's attributes change to match the beliefs and mores of each civilization, each sect. God is exactly what each group wants him to be--custom made.

There is evidence from scientific research to back up this assertion as well. Nicholas Epley from the Univ. of Chicago did experiments that show that what an individual attributes to their God is essentially a reflection of what the individual already believes - the two line up fat too well. When a person changes their position on an issue, the God they believe in makes the same shift.

The link below is to an article from 2009 from New Scientist. It's worth looking at.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18216-dear-god-please-confirm-what-i-already-believe.html

Thanks Puli, I loved reading that.

Science has pretty soundly debunked prayer through rigorous testing as not having any effect on the real world, other than a scientific psychological effect. There is so much conflicting and differing faith in the world that it can't be leaned on either for anything other than a personal sense of well-being. And God, apparently, is so elusive his existence will probably never be confirmed if he even does exist. Keep having faith and keep praying if it improves your mental state, but be analytical if you're going to make any reality assessments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2013 11:48AM by kimball.

And then what did God do? He sent me to work for His church, where morale was so low that I hit rock bottom and it destroyed any testimony that I had left. I screamed, "Why did you do that?!"

I realized that I'd been promised in church that we would never be pushed beyond our limits. He'd lied! I thought, "People get pushed to to the point of suicide every day. He outright lied!"

That's when I decided that He must be a real SOB, just before I finally realized that He simply wasn't there.

For some reason this got moderated earlier:

I spent the first few decades of my life trying to build a relationship with a being that was supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing, but somehow invisible and mute and unable (or unwilling) to communicate clearly with me.

I didn't hear the "still small voice". If I prayed for answers and thought that MAYBE I did feel something in my heart, it would fade away and the next day I'd feel the opposite. It left me confused and indecisive. And I felt that surely it must be all my fault for not trying hard enough or not being worthy enough.

There came a point in my life when I questioned if God was there at all. Long story short, I was done begging and pleading. 30+ years and I was done. If HE wanted to talk, He could talk. Otherwise, I would live my life as if he wasn't there, because if I couldn't see him, hear him, or even verify if He existed at all, I wasn't going to waste any more energy on Him. The ball was in HIS court and if he wanted to contact ME, then that was His option. Most importantly, I decided that I wasn't going to waste any more effort on some being who plays mind games.

I took the agnostic stance that I could not know if he was real (or not), and I was okay with that. It was such a relief, after all the insistence that you have to KNOW the in the church.

I have since decided that I do not believe God exists. If such an amazing being existed, I think there would be some evidence.

I'll be a lone voice

My whole life revolves around my belief in God and Jesus. I've had many spiritual experiences both as a mormon and as an exmo. In spite of anything that happens in your life, you just have to have faith.

As far as bad things happening on earth.... I heard this somewhere, I don't know where, but after we die, we will be very gratefull for the difficult things that we endured. In this life we don't learn from a textbook, we learn by going through stuff. And I'm saying this from a time in my life where just about everything sucks BIG time.

When life sucks, it helps knowing that God and Jesus are there, and if we have faith and patience, good things are just around the corner.

A major subplot to the bible is that God will test our patience. In fact it has been my experience that our patience will be tested beyond what you thing is fair. In fact way way beyond what you think is fair. Welcome to planet earth. If nothing else, we can at least learn empathy.

People can complain about God but look at this, there are so many joys and pleasures on the planet. God created the female body! And there is beer and coffee lol

"In spite of anything that happens in your life, you just have to have faith."

Well, not really. Whether I have faith or not, the world keeps spinning.

Have you ever noticed in your life that pretty much everything that gets accomplished, gets accomplished by you? Yeah, me too.

Those invisible hands never seem to want to paint the deck, take out the trash, mow the yard, feed the homeless, remove the tumor. Nothing. Nothing at all from God. It's just people doing things and helping one another.

Heavenly Father is an absentee parent at best.

I like to think that the real God is like the laws of the Universe, and maybe a collective of all beings in the universe. That version of God (pantheistic) is a God of cause and effect. Good and bad things will happen, plenty and famine, health and sickness, pleasure and pain.

Imagination can be powerful. When you run a race, don't you want to visualize yourself crossing the finish line? Imagine even winning the race? That visualization can help motivate a runner to train harder and run smarter in the real race.

I don't discount imagined Gods, in my opinion we just need to make certain we know what is real and what is imagined. So I do not need to decide whether there is or is not a God, there is no way for me to know that, but I can imagine greater powers that can help motivate me to do better, even if I don't win the race, at least I tried...

See, if someone has a wonderful experience with God, then they have a solid belief system, and that's great.

But then it leaves me wondering why God loves them and not me. Or all of the people who are in very desperate situations across the world, who are praying for a miracle, which never comes.

Something's wrong there. How does God pick and choose who to help?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2013 02:17PM by Greyfort.

If this life is nothing more than an amusement park , why would you want the operator to shut off the ride at midway ? That would ruin the experience , no matter how rough the ride .

You may find this helpful/interesting:
http://www.theamateurthinker.com/2011/02/how-can-we-find-truth-part-4/

This is what I think I believe.

God is love, and family, and friends. When I realized that TSCC was a lie, I evaluated what it was that I wanted out of life. And all I want, as is what all anyone wants, is to love my family and be kind and accepting of everyone unconditionally. And that felt right. I felt the peaceful affirmation of a still small voice when I made that decision more than any time I had prayed over the BOM.

It's a tough journey. You'll never really know what truth is, but that's okay. You'll figure out whatever is right for you, and you'll find peace doing it.

For me it wasn't a case of "deciding" , it was more like recognizing that there was no god.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.

As a never-mo and an atheist since I was 12 (and I'm 54 now so I'm in my Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything year of atheism ;) ), I don't see a reason for any. What with science marching on and all that and the Law of Parsimony and Occam's Razor, why would one (or more) be necessary?

I think most people have a religious faith because they were raised in one. I think that most that go looking for one are needing/wanting a comforting lie--that they won't die, that there's the possibility of a Deus ex Machina saving them or a loved one in a moment of need and that they needn't be afraid of the dark because someone/something is looking out for them. If such things make them happy, then it's no skin off my nose, *provided* they stay out of my business (looks at Mormons), stay out of my schools (looks at fundamental Christians), avoids cults of personality (looks at North Korea), keeps their grimy mitts off my body parts (glares at the fundamentalists, the Catholics and the Mormons), knocks off with forming or attempting to form theocracies (stares and Christianity and Islam) and keeps their disgusting paws off of my Constitution and recognizes the human rights of all people (glares hard at all of the above and all of the rest as well). *hops off of soapbox and considers a Guinness*