I am really raw about the Ordain Women fiasco this weekend, I already posted of my disgust with the Mormon church over this. The continued fallout from TBMs is in my opinion just as bad, if not worse. I am seeing post after post of women in the church decrying, mocking, and belittling the brave women who stood up for their rights, and their faith. It is making me sick!

Just as an example

https://www.facebook.com/tiffany.lee.barker/posts/10101098276492079?comment_id=12521402&offset=0&total_comments=32&notif_t=feed_comment_reply

Women are often their own worst enemies.

It is a good tactic for the opposition to divide and conquer.

That is exactly what happened to the ERA.

I think that most really TBM women ARE misogynists. It is what the church teaches - some by word and mostly definitely by action. That FB bit was pretty hard to read.

They can certainly fall victim to it if they hitch their whole wagon to the Old Guys in SLC. DW does that. She would say that she doesn't agree with the idea of misogyny, of course, but is willing to believe that whatever the Old Guys say is not actual misogyny--it only appears that way on the outside. So she has gone the last 20 years of our marriage thinking that I was an evil taskmaster when I had her take a job as our kids started attending college and going on missions.

any TBM had to be a mysogynyst, its their core doctrine: Men have super magic powers, women are brood mares. This is ordained of god (a man) and is the only way to make god happy.

If you really believe that, you are a mysogynyst.

WHAT'S THE POINT OF GIVING MEN THE PRIESTHOOD if women can do the same thing without needing all the fancy hand-laying garbage?

I was looking at the Ordain Women Facebook page as well.
My observation was that some Mormons are quick to turn on any member of the church who thinks outside the box. That behavior comes across as very immature.
Telling these women that they are being led by Satan?
That reminds me of people who like to quickly shut down an argument by saying "you're just jealous".

Women can absolutely be misogynists. Spent two minutes at a Relief Society function and you'll see it. That isn't to say misogyny among females is limited to mormons - but they sure make it easy to find.

It's a kind of psycho-cultural Stockholm Syndrome: People identify with and advance the agenda of the oppressor class that oppresses them.

"What does a slave want, more than anything else in the world?"
"Why, his freedom, of course!"
"No, he wants to be appointed chief slave driver."

+ 1000

But it is complicated. Dividing women, forcing them to compete for power is a hallmark of patriarchy. Women respond in different ways. Some do try to get ahead by oppressing other women. It's a tale older than the stars.

Amazingly, many women(and men) fight to change this system. Every time women work together. Every time power is shared. Every time education is promoted for all.

On other fora, there has been a great deal of discussion about how women play into the patriarchal system in the lds church. They do. But men do as well. We're all part of the system, even those who have left. It's up to us to examine our roles and bias and fight for change. Patriarchal brainwashing starts young, and isn't easily shrugged off IMO.

+100

TSCC does not become more true with female ordination.

That is certainly true. On the other hand, we have daughters, friends, mothers, sisters, and wives that will probably always be active members of the church. That is why I support OW. If my friends and loved ones are going to be part of a crazy religion, I would at least like it to be one with more equality.

Phyllis Schafly is one of the most well-known female misogynists. She helped crush the ERA amendment with the help of other female misogynists.

Like Heresy said, women can be their own worst enemies.

My dad would say when I was a teenager, "Women are their own worst enemies." I used to get so mad at him for saying that. Once I began college, then a career, etc., I realized he was right (sadly).

In any culture that disempowers women, the only power a woman will ever have is in the amount of emotional control she can get over her husband or son(s). That said, it is in the evolutionary best interest for women in this culture to undermine/destroy any other woman (who will be pushing for their husband or sons).

Any woman who doesn't submit, or is trying to break out of such slavery (forced and legislated dependence) is a threat to the security and long term evolutionary survival of the women who submit.

This argument, btw can be extended to explain why women have been shown to expose their girl infants (leave them to die on mountains or in garbage cans) feed their daughters less than their sons (if food is scarce) and stone other women.

Oh wow. How Christ like of them...

Her whole wall is so predictable that it's sad, right down to the religious and politcal memes, the Stepford smile and style. Sigh. In another thread, an RfMer asked if we thought of a particular TBM when we come to the forum. She is that TBM. She could be the mascot. Ugh.

The church is 60% women. You can lament the patriarchy all you want, but the majority of the church could easily change things if it truly demanded change.

The flip side of the coin are the men who also promote the patriarchy because "it's what we've always done," or "it's the culture we grew up in," even though patriarchy hurts men too.

Men and women on both sides.

I agree that women are their worst enemies, and in patriarchal cultures including Mormonism, it shows as they attack those who want to be treated as equals. Some of the nastiest comments on the Ordain Women facebook page are from women, and at least one woman said that those in the OW movement should be excommunicated especially if they stood outside trying to get into priesthood.

Those nasty comments on the Ordain Women site really give the impression that the Mormon church has lots of members who will turn on anyone who thinks outside the box.

Especially the man who said that he thinks there are more members of the church who would be interested in petitioning to be able to marry their pets than members who would be interested in what these women are doing.

Where is all that nastiness coming from? It's like these women have really hit a nerve with both men and other women.

I've always found it amazing that there are people out there claim to be God's finest and yet their behavior is horrendous.

from what I've read, most of the tbm women have no idea the issue is deeper than ordaining women. they haven't thought that far. women's voices can't be heard if they are only over themselves somewhat and kids.

When man suppresses women, he does it with other women's approval.

When man suppresses woman, he does with the tacit approval of women.

Can somebody please explain to me how cheerleading is good for women? I can understand competitive dance, or gymnastics, but being scantily dressed and cheering for the boys' activities?

In my town, if I were to even remotely suggest that cheerleading wasn't in the girls' best interests, I'd be run out of here.... Am I missing something?

You're not missing anything. And what's even worse is toddler beauty pageants. I had an argument with a Mormon sister over this very issue.

Can you cut and paste the comment. Not everyone has a FB page and can access it.

Amid all the snark, there is at least one individual posting who has very thoughtful comments...



I wonder what all the ladies in their pantsuits are doing since they didn't get into priesthood session... #imostlyjustwantedtosaypantsuits haha
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50 people like this.

Josh Wilson Probably feeling rebellious at home watching the priesthood session live.
October 5 at 8:25pm via mobile · 4

Mindy Martin Haha! In their "dress slacks"....
October 5 at 8:35pm via mobile · 3

Ashley Sanders Garlock ? Were there Women doing that?
October 5 at 8:56pm via mobile

Mindy Martin Its a huge thing and has been on the news. Their group is called Ordained Women and the petitioned Church HQ's for tickets to the Priesthood session but were denied. I can only image what they have in mind now.
October 5 at 10:27pm via mobile · 2

Hilary Belnap Some women are so funny. There will never come a day that men will petition to go to Relief Society, haha. Some people just don't get it!
October 5 at 11:53pm via mobile · 3

Ryan Holdaway I just wish they would learn that religious meetings are not the appropriate place for political demonstrations.
October 5 at 11:54pm via mobile · 6

Stephanie Leavitt Hartley They gathered together, sang together, prayed together, and watched it together in the park on their phones.

Each woman there has a hope for more equality in some way. Not all want ordination (although that is the end purpose for the organization). Each woman has had very real experiences that has led to their realization of the lack of equality.

The amount of energy someone puts into a cause is their own. No one can completely understand their reasoning except God.

As for the quality of time, I think that should be left up to them. What's important to one person is not important to another, this doesn't mean their wrong. Just different than you.

Lack of understanding isn't bad, it just is. If you truly want to know find someone that is for the movement or even sitting on the fence and ask; Without demoralization. They will answer you honestly if you're really looking to understand their reasoning.

Men don't have to petition to come to Relief Society and never will. They can already go.

When the church was small, there was plenty of opportunity to ask the prophet/presidency questions concerning policy, doctrine, culture. Now there is not. These women are asking in the only way that seems to actually get to the head leaders. And they sincerely want an answer.

Not being admitted to the building isn't a revelation being addressed, it's policy. And asking to reevaluate policy isn't a sin.

Please, if you want to know ask someone who is involved. There is no need for the name calling and belittling of a person or group.

Jesus taught to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort. Trying to understand even a little, I believe, is part of that.

Although I don't particularly have an urgent need for the Priesthood, I do feel a need for a shift towards equality.

And I might have been one of the only women wearing pants. Most were in skirts or dresses.
Yesterday at 10:07am via mobile · 2

Sara Brandon Stephanie help me understand--is the ultimate goal of these women for the Prophet to seek revelation regarding whether or not women can be ordained with the Priesthood? What if he asks and the answer from God is still the same? Is the movement over then?
Yesterday at 12:34pm via mobile · 1

Stephanie Leavitt Hartley The ultimate goal of the organization Ordain Women is to gain ordination. However, every woman who associated with the event yesterday are not necessarily working for the same overall end goal. But their current goal of entrance into the Priesthood session of conference was the same.

I am not a spokesperson for Ordain Women and cannot say what they will or will not do as an organization with answers from the Prophet. My personal opinion is that they will continue to ask. Follow the prophet in the current organization, but continue to ask. Most revelations have come because of questioning and expressing concerns. Some answered in just a few hours or days and other answers took many years.

From my understanding, the desire to be ordained has come from their study of history and study of the temple endowment. There is evidence in the Joseph Smith Papers that Joseph did originally ordain women to the Priesthood. I checked with a family member who is a church historian about the use of that Priesthood. These women did use it. They participated in washings and anointings, and blessings of other women and children. Men when there was no one else. Not all women had it. And it was slowly phased out. Never proclaimed out. I believe that a decisive proclamation is part of what Ordain Women is looking for.
Yesterday at 1:23pm

Tiffany Peterson Barker I have a lot of issues with this whole OW movement. I don't know if Facebook is the best format to get them across but I will go over a few of them.

First off, the world teaches that motherhood and womanhood are weak. It teaches that a woman who chooses to stay home and raise her children is choosing a lesser choice. To have this voice come into the church by its members (especially it's female members) is very upsetting.

Being a member of this church gives me a place. It gives me purpose. Before marrying and having children, I earned a BA degree in broadcast journalism. I anchored the news and loved it. I then moved to Tennessee and became a country singer. I traveled with various bands around the country and sang. It was a blast! I was living my dreams. Though, I always knew I would leave any of it (however big or small "it" was) when the time came to be a mother.

I have found my place. I have found my purpose. Even after pursuing all the other dreams, they didn't provide the peace and identity that motherhood brings. I cannot put into words how grateful I am to be a mother and have my little girls. It absolutely completes me. How anyone could diminish this role and treat is as a "less than" choice is beyond me... Especially from inside the church!
We are to the point that a talk in general conference on the power and importance of motherhood is offensive to some people! Whaaaaat?

I love being able to minister in the gospel. I have no desire to administer. I don't want to count the tithing. I want to serve as the Savior did. He didn't care about titles. He cared about people.

And the most important part of my post is this: the prophet answered. The answer is no. It is a scary thought that that is not enough. When you sustain the prophet and his apostles as the spokesmen for God, then you cannot deny what they say as coming from God. Living prophets will always trump dead prophets. It is not gray. It is black and white.

Aaaand those are a few of my thoughts on this OW thing. Congratulations if you made it this far...
Yesterday at 7:47pm via mobile · 34

Benjamin Ortega im not active in the church but i could not agree more Tiffany Peterson Barker
Yesterday at 8:10pm · 2

Tiffany Peterson Barker Thanks, Benjamin! Now come back We want you back. Conference was so amazing today and yesterday. President Monson said the morning session was the most inspiring conference session he has ever heard.
Yesterday at 8:13pm via mobile · 4

Benjamin Ortega I heard some of it this morning i like elder Scotts talk
Yesterday at 8:13pm via mobile · 4

Stephanie Leavitt Hartley OW isn't the world. Not one OW member I have talked to and certainly none of the organizers I have talked to thinks that mothers and women are weak. They completely understand how motherhood works and its importance.

What they are concerned about is the comparisons the church is making. Motherhood=Fatherhood, not Priesthood. Priestesshood=Priesthood. It clearly talks about women being Priestesses in the temple. And they want more of their responsibilities.

Continuous revelation doesn't mean that things will never change. What's wrong with letting people hope for something that is important to them.?
Yesterday at 8:18pm via mobile · 1

Benjamin Ortega I ain't getting into this I just agree with Tiffany Peterson Barker
Yesterday at 8:20pm via mobile · 2

Tiffany Peterson Barker We do not decide what is equal and what is not in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Lord does. And temple covenants are eternal. Very little of the promises and covenants made in the temple come to pass in this life. It sounds as though the OW women are ...See More
Yesterday at 8:35pm via mobile · 16

Shauna Black Boyce Tiffany Peterson Barker I love your insight into this matter! Thank you for sharing and being an amazing example of motherhood and womanhood!
23 hours ago · 5

Laura P Barker Wow Tiffany! Well said! Let's keep all these sweet sisters in our prayers
23 hours ago via mobile · 3

Nicole Greene I don't really think motherhood equals fatherhood, they are completely different. Both are amazing but different. Just as the priesthood blesses both men and women differently. I think that we need to remember that the priesthood is the power of God, it i does not belong to anyone. Our differences as man and women should be celebrated not minimized.
23 hours ago via mobile · 9

Ryan Holdaway I don't like to pick fights on other people's Facebook statuses, so I apologize in advance Tiffany if this post ruffles some feathers. I've been thinking a lot about this topic due this weekend and have decided a couple things.

Coveting what others h...See More
23 hours ago via mobile · 9

Jared Macknight Stephanie Leavitt Hartley..... I wish you understood the gospel.
23 hours ago via mobile

Jared Macknight Too many people worshiping Hillary Clinton.
23 hours ago via mobile · 2

Stephanie Leavitt Hartley I can't believe you're accusing me of not understanding the gospel. Just because I understand/view differently than you.

I don't even want the priesthood.! I just happened to take the time to find out why others do. I can understand where they're co...See More
23 hours ago via mobile · 2

Allyx Moedl Tiff I love you! You are such an amazing example to me and I look up to you so much.

Being a mother is the greatest calling. I love it and would never ever ask for anything different. We have the opportunity to create life alongside God. What a high ...See More
22 hours ago via mobile · 2

Tiffany Peterson Barker Allyx, love it and love you. I couldn't agree more. Stephanie, you are one of my good friends. We grew up together. We have so many fun memories as pitcher and catcher for the good 'ol Diamondbacks. I am sorry that this thread became a little hostile. ...See More
22 hours ago via mobile · 3

Jared Macknight The priesthood has Nothing to do with male superiority, read the scriptures, everyone has their place and responsibilities, thou shalt not covet.
22 hours ago via mobile · 2

Jared Macknight There is a, dangerous movement trying to divide male from female,......even the very elect will be deceived.
11 hours ago via mobile · Edited · 4

Mindy Martin If we understand the endowment; we understand that as women we are able to wear the garment which is the Garment of the Holy Priesthood and gives women all the power that comes from the Priesthood yet not the Authority to bear it. My prayers are no les...See More
21 hours ago via mobile · 7

Mindy Martin Sorry ...typos...stupid phone
21 hours ago via mobile

Tiffany Peterson Barker Mindy, beautiful. Thank you.
21 hours ago via mobile · 1

Mindy Martin And can I just add...we never need feel oppressed because Jesus Christ is THE greatest champion of women and we are in His covenant.
21 hours ago via mobile · 5

Mindy Martin Ok...sorry, one more thought. In regards to the Joseph Smith papers and women being ordained. I thought of polygamy. Same kind of thing...it was at one time practiced but is no longer authorized. And while Joseph Smith is the prophet of the Restoration, Thomas S. Monson is the prophet of our generation and he leads the church under the direction of Jesus Christ.
21 hours ago via mobile · 3
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Many good comments in this thread.

Mormon female mysogyny case in point: Sherry Dew.