They have a crappy relationship, but have been doing better. His dad patted his forehead because he was patting the dogs too, and he was just next in line. Son jumped off sofa and went and smacked him in the face, to which dad told him to chill out and can't he tell when he is joking.

I was on headphones so couldn't hear it all, but realized when the dogs were crazy and I heard thumps something was not right.

My son had tackled dad, punched him in the face, pushed him down, and then tried to say dad pulled a knife on him.

Dad is 50, son is 16 and bigger. I broke them up, and son left and I talked to dad.

It was my son that lost it. dad has marks on him, eye, couple of scratches on legs, etc. Probably bruises but he won't let me see.

It was heartbreaking. I wanted to call cops but dad said no. I went and got son and brought him home and he has been in his room ever since. He would be in legal trouble if we called, and neither of us want that, but this is really bad.

Son has lots of anger, dad deserted him for a long time, but he was wrong in this. I can't get them to do therapy, but it can't be like this.

warn him next time, the police will be called. I would ask them to talk to him today, whatever gpa says. sorry :(

it will keep happening unless you call the cops now.

That's pure presumption. I think calling the police is what you do when you need someone with a tazer and cuffs to haul someone away, perhaps permanently. It's a last resort.

This is not normal behavior. Your son has crossed a line.

Better get him to a psychiatrist for evaluation and into anger management classes, or you may have to visit him in prison for the rest of your life.

Go see a counsellor, or a professional.
For goodness sakes.
This is your own son.
Its your responsibility, not some idiotic loser with a badge and a gun who will probably taser him, then arrest him.
You either do nothing and lose your son FOREVER, because what mother betrays their own child to the state???!!!
or, you step in, and YOU get arrested.
This is this USA I am presuming?
Ok. If this is NZealand then cool, police there are normal and would talk to the kid.
GPA?
**** me, your kid has bigger problems than that.
Please tell me there is more to this story.
Please tell me you aren't throwing your son to the wolves because you are a **** mother who doesn't know what to do.
Apologies if I am reading this wrong.
Too many LDS parents are ******up inside and outside of the church

I know all that you say. I was ready to take him to vantage point (cool off for teens) and call cops, but dad said no.

I have talked to the both of them and said they have to work this out through therapy or it is never going to change.

It's ok for son to be angry and hurt. Dad needs to own that, but this did cross a line, and I told son that.

Dad is the one who doesn't want to do therapy, but son has before and is going back first thing this week.

I also thought about anger management classes. He is very angry and has a chip on his shoulder for everyone except his "boys". It is frustrating because they seemed to be getting closer again finally.

My son doesn't think his dad has been there at all. He was the first 10 years but then he did break up the family, though the reason why was not his fault, his dealing with his son was.

Making calls tomorrow, and they are not near each other. His dad does everything for him too, but son has no appreciation for it.

Thanks for listening

Not at all, and again, sincere apologies if I come off sounding like a know it all a as.
I never communicated with my dad until i was 23, married, out of home.
He was odd, I'm sure I was too, he worked in the gas fields was away more than half my life.
Being told by my wife that my son and I are exactly the same rock's me to core. No were not. He's a selfish snot nosed lazy know it all kid.
I'm not. (Right?)
Having mum , my wife bis mum, always remind us is something we cant argue with, is it.
Why fight myself.
When wife said its ok. I won't think you are not alpha male and emasculated if you let him win fights and arguments, cos I mean, my old man taught me, no, he showed me, who was the alpha male, and it was the MAN of the house, not the CHILD, right.
But now I let him vent.
This is real, teenage boys are missing a part of their brains. This is biological fact.
It turns them into idiots.
It sounds like your ex was a flake of a dad, but as you say, its gotta work.
My wife got me to do things with my son where_he_"won", where he was the man.
The boy is growing up, and there is a lot going on inside.

An Aussie author called Stephen Biddulph writes great books for dads, made a big difference for me, plus wife letting me know I'm no less the man for letting him think he is the alpha male.
He isn't, I'm sure he knows he isn't, but he has to learn it eventually.

Good luck sis. But as an Aussie who sees us police from side on, just don't let them become involved if you can avoid it

Vantage point, is that lime paintballing where he can shoot his dad and get a bit out and then they walk home together, maybe walk to the service station to buy jumper leads because the car battery mysteriously got flat and they needed to work together to solve a problem?

Its not like one of those desert camps where they de gay kids or make them mop floors and line up doing parade?

We see these places on tv here, they always seem to be in Utah or Utah owned. These later thinking someone else will fix their kid in a one month dehydration boot camp

good. get him help for his issues. But don't allow it to get physical again, you don't want it to escalate from today. the cops won't arrest him if you don't press charges.

Kid is lucky Dad didn't kick his butt. When I was 17, working out & bigger (not smarter) than my Dad- I pushed it too far. Mom was in the room. I picked Dad up & dumped him on the couch & yelled in his face. Dad didn't lower the boom on me. I was living at home. The next morning I awoke to Dad sitting on my chest, with his fist in my face. He told me, that anytime I thought I could take him, we could go to the backyard (without Mom around) & we'd see who was the "bigger man" really was. I was younger, angrier & stronger than my Dad- bu he had boxed in the Navy. To this day< I'm thankful He didn't kick my butt.
Your son better wise up before he gets hurt or ends up in jail.

Vantage point is a place in Provo, Utah, that is for teens a place to cool off., He has never been there, but many of his friends have.

Also use it as interim for foster kids if it is a bad situation.

It is only meant for a few days, and it is sort of lock-down but they can still leave.

I have called cops on him before, but they just talk to him and tell me how to mom. This was before dad was around though.

I told him dad could hurt him if he had wanted to but he doesn't want to. son does think he is alpha male and tougher than pretty much anyone out there.

Yeah, I know their brains are n't working either, but his dad does not get any of that. He grew up in a pretty shitty and majorly abusive situation that he has never reconciled and doesn't really know how to be a dad, or at least not once the son turned 10ish. He was great when he was little. Seriously did everything with him and for him. But all the son thinks is all the stuff he didn't do with him. Ugh. Thankss again.

Adult role models and mentors, some direction, some confidence etc
good luck to both of you!

Violence doesn't help. I saw that in new Zealand on my mission. The Polynesian solution "the laying on of hands".

Anything to do with the camps and programs that are in Utah, Arizona, etc., anything to do with ANYTHING that is Mormon, I am really scared of, because from all reports the outcomes are one of three:

1) they "break" the kid (and the kid comes out of it fairly docile, without the practical potential to be a whole, healthy adult)

2) the kid dies (from many different causes, including suicide)

3) the kid comes out of the camp/program at some point, ages into becoming a legal adult, and is unable to function as a healthy adult because he is impulsive and anger-driven for all the rest of his life...putting into real danger his spouse, his future children and grandchildren, animals, and those strangers who happen into his physical orbit

He does need anger management therapy or classes.

My suggestion: Call anyone who knows about domestic violence in your geographical area. Ask what anger management programs are available; which ones do THEY use? Eliminate, to your best ability to do so, any which are "Mormon approved." A very strong suggestion: begin with your local Unitarian-Universalist church. Go over there (physically) and talk to them, and ask them--if they were faced with what YOU are faced with now--what would THEY do. If they give you some referrals, they can PROBABLY be trusted more than the available alternatives in Utah. Even with a referral, check out the referred sources as well as you can (Google them; try to determine if they have had previous BAD results and then try to pick the best alternative available from the short list of the ones left over after you take out the REALLY bad ones.)

Your son MUST get anger management intervention as soon as possible.

The alternatives are not ones you want to have to deal with or live with in the future.

My best wishes go out to you, to your son, to your husband, and to everyone in your family (including your pets).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2013 08:59PM by tevai.

My life's work has been with troubled teens. He needs to be in consistent counseling with anger management classes if you hope to have any positive outcome. This is not typical teenage boy behavior. It is easier to enable the inappropriate behavior by letting things slide until 'next time' ,hoping there won't be one. Don't allow yourself to feel guilty because he had a poor childhood due to neglect or whatever,thinking his life has been so bad that he is entitled to react this way. To react to a tap as he did demonstrates how close to the surface his anger lies. There may also be some things which have happened to him you don't know about causing the anger which may be discovered through counseling and brought to the surface and dealt with. Counseling takes time and consistency. The scary part is that I have seen children become violent quickly with consequences they never intended to happen which changed their lives forever and those they hurt. Good luck. I know the stress you are under.

I might be completely wrong here but I don't think your son should be carrying much of the blame. You say the dad, skipped out of/broke up the family for a few years and of course son has a lot of anger about that. That makes sense and I think that's normal and healthy.

What's unhealthy, imo, is dad not wanting to deal with it by not wanting to get therapy, not wanting to take appropriate cop/legal action,

I realize that your son crossed a line with his physical aggression but again, imo, there's probably a reason for that and it just might be that the dad is not dealing with the big elephant in the living room. Dad is in denial about the pain he's caused the son; he's sweeping it under the rug. That's probably just as painful to your son as the original pain. I'd probably lash out too.

Hopefully this rattles the dad enough so that he'll begin dealing with his sh!t and the hurt he's responsible for.

Again, just my opinion.

+1 sounds like son is trying to get the message across that he is fed up, and patting him on the head like a dog pushed his button...... dad needs to man up and agree to therapy.

what is going on between them that could cause this? do you think maybe something more serious than 'a crappy relationship' could be going on?

The violence could mean something reaalllly abusive happened and your son finally snapped. I'm sort of puzzled about how everyone here is quick to judge him as being totally in the wrong. You really need to hear his side of the story or maybe start some therapy.

"Son has lots of anger, dad deserted him for a long time"

Say no more. Time for a/the grownups to stand up and take the blame. Eat the whole carcass. Every last drop falls on the adult. Even if it's only 70/30. Be the adult. Take responsibility. Let the kid know that "of course he's pissed." Let the kid know he has every right to be angry. Let him know someone else made horrible choices. Let him know he's good. His anger is good. He won't be a doormat to a jackass. Be proud of him. Let him know. Then, long after you've complimented him and told him how proud you are - long as in months - talk about channeling the anger productively. Get this - wait months before you encourage him to channel his anger differently.

He's mad. He should be. The true jackass, his dad, needs to take it like a man for a long, long time.

I don't think parents in a situation like this realize the long lasting devastation they've caused.

Shatter a 10 year olds life but unwilling to go to counseling? Father is a sad excuse for a human being.

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Son has lots of anger, dad deserted him for a
> long time"
>
> Say no more. Time for a/the grownups to stand up
> and take the blame. Eat the whole carcass. Every
> last drop falls on the adult. Even if it's only
> 70/30. Be the adult. Take responsibility. Let
> the kid know that "of course he's pissed." Let
> the kid know he has every right to be angry. Let
> him know someone else made horrible choices. Let
> him know he's good. His anger is good. He won't
> be a doormat to a jackass. Be proud of him. Let
> him know. Then, long after you've complimented
> him and told him how proud you are - long as in
> months - talk about channeling the anger
> productively. Get this - wait months before you
> encourage him to channel his anger differently.
>
> He's mad. He should be. The true jackass, his
> dad, needs to take it like a man for a long, long
> time.

Your son needs counseling. My suggestion would be to go through his school counselor. School counselors are well trained and are able to call in additional resources as needed.

In addition, I would want to talk to him about where and how he got the idea that hitting was an okay way to solve interpersonal issues. I would make it very clear to him that hitting is not acceptable behavior.

I would also impose a consequence on him for his behavior. Make it clear that you and his dad agreed on the consequence. It need not be draconian -- perhaps two weeks of being grounded and loss of car driving privileges.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2013 09:53PM by summer.

May not realize that physical freedom is contingent upon one being able to govern one's own behavior.

If one cannot govern one's behavior, there are many institutions that will govern behavior via external physical constraints which are imposed.


Young fella may want to know that.

Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2013 09:31PM by zenjamin.

This is a clear case of domestic violence and should be treated as such.

Violence in a home has a very high risk of escalating. You are living in a potentially very dangerous situation.

Make sure that there are no weapons in the house.

From all you have said, your son has more problems than just with his father. The parents are responsible for what they have done, but the child is also responsible for he does, particularly when the behavior is criminal.

I strongly caution you to stop making excuses for your son. His behavior is dangerous and must change or he will go to jail.

I would have called the police.

Oh my gosh. I know it is hard to call on your child. But it could be very much worse next time. He must learn to control himself because it will happen more than just at home. He does need therapy. I feel badly for Dad. So he left for a bit.....he is back now. And the boy will hold a grudge forever??? He needs to grow up. He can be angry without actions. He is choosing the wrong way to deal with anger. The boy needs to be told by police and CPS that this is not allowed and you telling him seems to have no affect. Please do not ever let this slide again. If Dad needs to fess up to some stuff and hasn't then he is going to have to so son can ease some of his pain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2013 10:42PM by honestone.

is abuse. He didn't say anything before he touched him? He thinks he can reach out and touch his head or face with no warning after touching an animal without washing his hands? Well its like walking along a line of dogs patting them then patting your head last signifies you matter even less. Plus, the dogs are sitting or standing there and you are sitting down the man is treating you as a dog. This is very demeaning, its disrespecting, and its emotionally and socially unacceptable- expect in movies, where they show someone being raised as a dog, and demeaned and treated by their grown ups treated less than human.

Grant him his humanity.

This is beyond school counselor who sets up classes for people- he shouldn't have to live with this.

This adult is baiting him, and setting him up. What else has he done if he is capable demeaning someone- then, expecting, them, to submit to being demeaned and treated like an animal?

No one else sees anything wrong with this?

I respectfully disagree that this is beyond what a school counselor can handle. They are trained counselors first and foremost, and they deal with problems like this every working day. And if additional resources are needed, the school psychologist can be brought in, or referrals can be made to additional resources such as a psychiatrist or an inpatient program. I once saw a student placed in an inpatient program the same day that he was deemed a danger to himself.

Regardless of what you think about the adult's actions, the boy needs to be taught appropriate ways to handle and talk out his anger.

"the boy needs to be taught appropriate ways to handle and talk out his anger."

Maybe, but long, long after the boy has been told how appropriate his anger is. Long after someone told the boy they are proud of him for standing up to a bully. Long as in months. Someone needs to celebrate this boy. I would.

paintingintheWIN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> is abuse. He didn't say anything before he touched
> him? He thinks he can reach out and touch his head
> or face with no warning after touching an animal
> without washing his hands? Well its like walking
> along a line of dogs patting them then patting
> your head last signifies you matter even less.
> Plus, the dogs are sitting or standing there and
> you are sitting down the man is treating you as a
> dog. This is very demeaning, its disrespecting,
> and its emotionally and socially unacceptable-
> expect in movies, where they show someone being
> raised as a dog, and demeaned and treated by their
> grown ups treated less than human.
>
> Grant him his humanity.
>
> This is beyond school counselor who sets up
> classes for people- he shouldn't have to live
> with this.
>
> This adult is baiting him, and setting him up.
> What else has he done if he is capable demeaning
> someone- then, expecting, them, to submit to being
> demeaned and treated like an animal?
>
> No one else sees anything wrong with this?

I agree with you. This little "joke was ABUSE of the worst kind. I think "dad" knows this or he would have called the police. He doesn't want to face his own cruelty and he doesn't want a counselor calling him on it either.

Call the cops, lose your son. Do you think minor tussles between father and son are uncommon? They're not. Fathers and sons are like rams butting heads. It's not unheard of for them to come to blows.

Do you really want your son to have a criminal record? Do you want him to hate you for the rest of your life- don't kid yourself: that will permanently scar your relationship with him worse than it is with his dad.

It sounds like you've only got your husband's side of the story. Sonny boy, a 16 year old suffering typical angst at that age, wrestled the guy down. No punches. No chokes.

Cops are filth. Your wont to involve them will make a bad situation worse.

Your husband at least knows what it is to be a 16 yr old male. You don't and are overreacting.

It's called domestic violence, and it is NOT normal or healthy. You should seriously re-evaluate your position.

Blows ain't 'normal.'

The police are not our friends.
Period

+1

Geeze, does no one read the news anymore ... So many comments about calling the police ... take a few minutes and search out some youtube videos on parents who called the police on their kids and see how well that worked out for them.

This isn't something you can wish and hope away, so it's very positive that your son is going to therapy. Anger management should be top priority.

Blood isn't that much thicker than water. If dad and son don't live under the same roof, it might be best to limit how much time they spend together for the time being. They have some serious issues, and trying to make son love dad won't help. It's tragic, but not all parent/child relationships go over well, and this may be one that is beyond repair, at least for the moment. It's better that they don't see each other and stay out of jail, than that they be obligated to spend time together and it results in someone getting hurt/arrested.

Like your son i hate to be touched

Just to clarify-son did punch him in the face.

It is so complicated, and we all live under the same roof (though dad is in another part of the house_)

Son is very angry, but I have never seen him do that. I have also never seen dad so hurt and shocked. He had just been pushed and jumped on and punched, so maybe he was really physically hurting at that moment.

I still don't think he gets what he has put my son through though, and that is really frustrating for my son and I. He grew up with paretns that would have never tolerated that, and they beat him even when he did behave.

Even though dads father was a sex abuser who raped all his sisters and beat the boys, he still respected him. I never did get that.

But no, my brothers never attacked my dad or came to blows. I have always told this son he can DEFEND himself but not start it.

Thank God dad didn't fight back, cause he would have held his own too. At least I think he would have.

It is valuable to hear from you all though, whether I agree with it or not. Looking at it from the outside is tough, and while you don't know everything, it would take a book, it helps to have someone else look at it.

No, I don't want him to have a record. But he also has to know he can't get away with that. So where do you go with that?

Thanks again!!

Hard to improve on the multitude of superb viable suggestions offered - many well short of calling der polizei.

Good luck.

I think calling the police is a last resort and almost always makes things worse so it should be because there is no other option.

Are you back with the father after he deserted you and the son? I'm not following that part. If he's angry at his father for deserting him, he's probably feeling some anger at your for taking him back?

I think the whole family needs counseling asap and if the father won't go after that scenario, he should be out of the house and you and the son go.

I do not agree that what dad did was the least bit abusive. I was sitting right next to him (son) and it was pretty normal with their banter. I guess you would have to be there to have seen it and the way it was meant.

Yes, they both have major issues. Son was in therapy but therapist said he was done unless he needed to come back in. I was not fond of her, and I don't think he was honest with her, but I will try again with addressing this situation.

I think dad does just not believe in therapy. he has been in and out for many years, and for him, or him and I, it hasn't done much.

I could go into so much more detail, but dad has been making an effort. Son is spoiled somewhat. Dad does everything around the house, clean clothes, home cooked meals, etc.

Son expects cell phone to be paid, clean clothes, rides (no license yet-next month-though I told him if he gets like that then he is not going to be able to get it)

I would never send him to one of the survival camps either.

It's hard for me because I want to back up my son, but I never taught him that violence was ok. Never.

He was kind of mean to the dog the other day too, got really really angry that dog took a shit in the boys hang-out room.

I just realized that. He has never been like that.

And no, dad is not abusing him in any other way. I know that for a fact, as they are never alone together anyway.

Yeah, his dad really fopoiupo up. I dont' think he has ever said "I'm sorry I'm )))))" I'm sorry what this has done to our family, etc. I know I have, but I am pretty sure he never has.

Ok, well, all is quiet now, has been the whole rest of the day. I'm tired, so gotta go. Thanks for your time again!!!

Your son is a ticking time bomb.
Get him a psych evaluation stat before he kills someone.

Mental illnesses often start to show up around that age but there are NO excuses or mitigating circumstances for such behavior.

If he is a danger to himself or to others he NEEDS to be locked up.

Something few boys know is that a single punch can kill someone. They see too much tv and movies to realize this. It happens all the time. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2505111/Boy-17-killed-man-street-single-punch-going-friends-house-play-games.html

Look it up and educate him that he is a man now and people can be killed doing this and if it happens he would face life in prison even if he didn't mean it.

Every boy needs to understand this.