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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 03:32AM

Is there any possible reason (that makes sense that is) why God would put his words/instructions for his restored church in any kind of Egyptian (let alone reformed Egyptian) if he was planning to leave/place this information (through his representative angel) on gold plates in New York?
Aside from every other insanity that is Mo-ism, why would anyone believe that God would do this?
We don't really need to dig very deep for insane things to come up in TSCC. This reformed Egyptian thing is an example. TSCC has never even tried to hide this but my question is why would anyone believe this? Reformed Egyptian is not now or has ever been a language.......??? Any ideas?

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Posted by: zenjamin ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 03:35AM

verilyverily Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any ideas?

It's made up.
Made-upped-ness drives rational folks nuts trying to rationalize it.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 01:01PM


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Posted by: darkshadow ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 03:47AM

If the nephites where from jerusalem why not use hebrew. Methinks other people can read that so lets make up our own language and call it pig latin. Wait thats call it reformed egyptian.

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 03:57AM

Supposedly God was waiting for a faithful servant in whom he could confide according to the song "the golden plates lay hidden deep in the mountain side."
Once God decided to trust JS as his confidant, he would have put the plates in English since he knew Joey spoke English. God can use any language he wants. He would want to be nice to his confidant.
Common sense would say that God would want his restored church on earth ASAP which means he would want the BOM in the hands of lots of people quickly. God would not hinder his confidant (JS) by using a non-existant language even if he did provide some translating tools, right?
Sometimes I think JS was even shocked at how far his prank went. He knew he was pulling the legs of the people there. He enjoyed it and continued it. But, at some point, I think he was even surprised that it snowballed as it did. He got to a point where he couldn't just say "I was kidding." But really, he probably was thinking "how could these morons really believe this crap......reformed Egyptian, and angel named Moron-i, really?" I mean everything about it sounds made-up so he probably thought that the people were really stupid to buy his prank like a bunch of idiots.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2013 04:01AM by verilyverily.

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Posted by: William Law ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 12:50PM

I just thought of something because of your post.

If God could give JS the ability to translate, why couldn't he just have had Moroni write it in English?

Don't Mormons like to say, "Begin with the end in mind"?

Would have saved problems. Haha.

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Posted by: The Invisible Green Potato ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 04:24AM

The stated reason was to save space on the very expensive gold plates.

The real reason was so that no-one could say "I am an expert in hebrew, let me take a look at the golden plates". Noone could possibly be an expert in a made up language.

As I understand it, if the BOM was written in hebrew on paper, then stored in a good container, it would have lasted the required amount of time. Just sayin'.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 08:49AM

Exactly. If Joseph Smith were claiming expertise in a known
language (Champollion published his "Lettre à M. Dacier relative
à l'alphabet des hiéroglyphes phonétiques" announcing that he
had deciphered Egyptian Hieroglyphic language in 1822) there
would have been the possibility of being confronted with a
sample of that language and a challenge to translate. By making
it an unknown language, he avoided that possibility.

Remember how distraught he became when challenged to
re-translate, verbatim, something he had already "translated" --
the 116 pages. The guy was worried about being found out and
took a lot of precautions.

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Posted by: EssexExMo ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 05:17AM

well - duh - of course moroni wrote the plates in a language that he could understand and its been proven that the predecessors of the mayan people wrote in reformed egyptian [citation needed]

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Posted by: CincinnatusC ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 05:43AM

Reformed Egyptian + rock + hat = English

Duh!!

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 01:19PM

Ditto!

Could it be any more obvious that JS was a backwoods con?!

Made up language.
Rock in hat.
Curtain.
"I can't show you. God said so."
Amateur magician pranks.
Pile of rocks = Adam's alter
Finds a bone = Zelph the white lamanite
Finds a mummy = What do you know. It's from Abraham!
Sees girls he want's to bonik. God demands it.
Sees land he wants. God demands it be given to the church.
Pay no attention to the facts. Just pray about it = truth.

Coincidence after coincidence, bad stunts, poor education and a bunch of credulous people is all that whole religion was about. How can people not see that?

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Posted by: jpt ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 08:04PM

You know, Christmas season and all... but it seems we could put something together like this to the tune and meter of "Must Be Santa."

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Posted by: stillburned ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 09:50AM

Of course, JS went as far as to say he could translate what I like to call "REAL Egyptian," and at the time, no one was able to say, "I'm an expert in REAL Egyptian, let me have a look." Of course, eventually someone DID become an expert and DID get to have a look at the papyrus that was supposedly the Book of Abraham. And even with the overwhelming evidence that it's a funerary text far less ancient than Abraham, plenty of TBMs hold the BoA to be what JS claimed it was.

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Posted by: hapeheretic ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 09:56AM

Just for the record, I look "Reformed Egyptian" on Wikipedia.

There was no listing of any such thing on the web.

The internet makes it so easy to refute.

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Posted by: stillburned ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 10:21AM

Yes, of course, it's a made up language. Just like the made up book that was supposedly written in that made up language. Just like Mormonism as a whole...it's made up by Joseph Smith.

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Posted by: armtothetriangle ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 03:50PM

Could be because outside of JS and the BOM, no claims of reformed Egyptian exist, anywhere in recorded history.

The Hebrew language has special relevence to ancient and modern Jews alike. The notion that ancient Hebrews would write a sacred text or history in a language other than Hebrew is absurd, I'm sorry. Hebrew is written without vowels, not sure how much more "short hand" could be needed.

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Posted by: deco ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 12:57PM

It is simply standard Egyptian that has been through rehab.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 02:14PM

The Nephites were Jewish therefore forbidden to associate with egyptians. They would have kept records in Hebrew not Egyptian

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Posted by: BeenThereDunnThatExMo ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 03:17PM

If dear old God wants me to know something he can write it in the sky with clouds in a language i can understand at that everybody else can see.

Otherwise he's playing favorites and i will never worship any "god" like that.

Or so it seems to me...

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Posted by: cynthus ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 03:26PM

lol I think I need to come up with reformed Neanderthal. Yes--

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 07:17PM

I think he meant deformed Egyptian.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 08:13PM

From "Mormonism Unvailed" (1834)

http://archive.org/stream/mormonismunvaile00howe#page/269/mode/1up

It is asserted in the Mormon Bible, that the engravings
upon the plates, were in the " Reformed Egyptian." In
conformity to this, the Mormonite preachers, and others of
the sect, have frequently declared that the engravings upon
the plates were, by some of our learned men, who had a
specimen shown them, pronounced to be "reformed Egyp-
tian hieroglyplics," or " ancient short hand Egyptian." —
Among others, Professor Anthon, of New York, was fre-
quently mentioned as giving such an opinion. This act of
deception and falsehood is only one among hundreds of
others, equally gross, which are resorted to by those im-
posters, to gain proselytes. It being calculated to have con-
siderable weight, when fully believed, we took the liberty
to inform Mr. Anthon of the vile use that was made of his
name, in this country; and to request of him a statement of
the facts respecting it. The following is his reply:

New York, Feb. 17, 1834.
Dear Sir — I received this morning your favor of the 9th
instant, and lose no time in making a reply. The whole
story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscrip-
tion to be " reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" is perfectly false. Some years ago, a plain, and apparently simple-
hearted farmer, called upon me with a note from Dr. Mitch-
ell of our city, now deceased, requesting me to decypher, if
possible, a paper, which the farmer would hand me, and
which Dr. M. confessed he had been unable to understand.
Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the
conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax. When
I asked the person, who brought it, how he obtained the wri-
ting, he gave me, as far as I can now recollect, the follow-
ing account: A "gold book," consisting of a number of
plates of gold, fastened together in the shape of a book by
wires of the same metal, had been dug up in the northern
part of the state of New York, and along with the book an
enormous pair of "gold spectacles"! These spectacles
were so large, that, if a person attempted to look through
them, his two eyes would have to be turned towards one of
the glasses merely, the spectacles in question being alto-
gether too large for the breadth of the human face. Who-
ever examined the plates through the spectacles, was ena-
bled not only to read them, but fully to understand their
meaning. All this knowledge, however, was confined at
that time to a young man, who had the trunk containing the
book and spectacles in his sole possession. This young
man was placed behind a curtain, in the garret of a farm
house, and, being thus concealed from view, put on the
spectacles occasionally, or rather, looked through one of
the glasses, decyphercd the characters in the book, and,
having committed some of them to paper, handed copies
from behind the curtain, to those who stood on the outside.
Not a word, however, was said about the plates having been
decyphered "by the gift of God." Every thing, in this
way, was effected by the large pair of spectacles. The
farmer added, that he had been requested to contribute a
sum of money towards the publication of the "golden book,"
the contents of which would, as he had been assured, pro-
duce an entire change in the world and save it from ruin.
So urgent had been these solicitations, that he intended sel-
ling his farm and handing over the amount received to those
who wished to publish the plates. As a last precautionarv
step, however, he had resolved to come to New York, and
obtain the opinion of the learned about the meaning of the
paper which he brought with him, and which had been given
him as a part of the contents of the book, although no trans-
lation had been furnished at the time by the young man
with the spectacles. On hearing this odd story, I changed
my opinion about the paper, and, instead of viewing it any
longer as a hoax upon the learned, I began to regard it as
part of a scheme to cheat the farmer of his money, and I
communicated my suspicions to him, warning him to beware
of rogues. He requested an opinion from me in writing,
which of course I declined giving, and he then took his
leave carrying the paper with him. This paper was in
fact a singular scrawl. It consisted of all kinds of crook-
ed characters disposed in colums, and had evidently been
prepared by some person who had before him at the time
a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew
letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or
placed sideways, were arranged in perpendicular col-
mns, and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a
circle divided into various compartments, decked with va-
rious strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican
Calendar given by Humboldt, but copied in such a way
as not to betray the source whence it was derived. I am
thus particular as to the contents of the paper, inasmuch as
I have frequently conversed with my friends on the subject,
since the Mormonite excitement began, and well remember
that the paper contained any thing else but "Egyptian Hi-
eroglyphics." Some time after, the same farmer paid me
a second visit. He brought with him the golden book in
print, and ofTered it to me for sale. I declined purchasing.
He then asked permission to leave the book with me for ex-
amination. I declined receiving it, although his manner
was strangely urgent. I adverted once more to the roguery
which had been in my opinion practised upon him, and ask-
ed him what had become of the gold plates. He informed
me that they were in a trunk with the large pair of specta-
cles. I advised him to go to a magistrate and have the trunk
examined. He said the "curse of God" would come upon
him should he do this. On my pressing him, however, to
pursue the course which I had recommended, he told me
that he would open the trunk, if I would take the "curse of
God" upon myself. I replied that I would do so with the
greatest willingness, and would incur every risk of that na-
ture, provided I could only extricate him from the grasp of
rogues. He then left me.

I have thus given you a full statement of all that I know
respecting the origin of Mormonism, and must beg you, as
a personal favor, to publish this letter immediately, should
you find my name mentioned again by these wretched fa-
natics. Yours respectfully, CHAS. ANTHON.

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Posted by: secretnotsacred ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 08:31PM

"The stated reason was to save space on the very expensive gold plates."

Didn't someone claim that Joey and his posse walked into a cave in the hill Cumorah and see rooms and rooms of gold plated records? I am sure that cave and those records existed same as I am sure that reformed Egyptian existed. Wait..I know it is true because someone else told me it was true and I should believe them and state that I know it to be true, even if I really don't know it.

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 10:46PM

Could it be any more obvious that JS was a backwoods con?! - This sentence sums up my questioning. BTW - thanks for all of the responses.
COULD IT BE ANY MORE OBVIOUS THAT JS WAS A BACKWOODS CON? - I guess I am left with the conclusion that people around him back then (the early Mos) were just plain stupid........
and then (as I mentioned) it snowballed and snowballed out of control as more and more people got bamboozled by it.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 12:38AM

I've posted this before but will do so again for inquiring minds who want to know. In 1842, the Rev. Henry Caswell met Joseph Smith, Jr. at Nauvoo, IL and while he was there asked him to translate an antique illuminated psalter written in Greek. This is his firsthand account of his meeting with the Mormon Prophet.

From "Three Days At Nauvoo" (1844)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36486/36486-h/36486-h.htm

The following morning (Tuesday, April 19th), a Mormon arrived with his boat and ferried me over to Nauvoo. A Mormon doctor accompanied me. He had obtained, I was told, a regular diploma from a medical school as a physician; but since the Mormons generally prefer miraculous aid to medicine, it is probable that his practice is somewhat limited. He argued with me as we were on the passage, and evinced a tolerable share of intelligence and acuteness. The success of Mormonism in England was a subject of great rejoicing to him. I observed, that I had reason to believe that the conquests of Mormonism in Britain had been principally among the illiterate and uneducated. This, he partially admitted; but he maintained that God had always chosen the poor, for they were rich in faith. I replied, that the class of persons to whom he referred, abounded in wrong faith no less than in right faith; and that among the lower class of persons in England, the wildest delusions, of the most contradictory character, had, from time to time, been readily propagated. I further remarked, that the same class of people who believed in Joanna Southcote, might easily be persuaded to credit the divine mission of Joseph Smith. I begged him to inform me whether the Mormons believed in the Trinity. "Yes," he replied; "we believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; that makes three at least who are God, and no doubt there are a great many more." He went on to state, that the Mormons believe that departed saints become a portion of the Deity, and may be properly denominated "Gods."

On landing at Nauvoo, I proceeded with the Doctor along the street which I mentioned before as bordering on the strand. As I advanced with my book in my hand, numerous Mormons came forth from their dwellings, begging to be allowed to see its mysterious pages; and by the time I reached the prophet's house, they amounted to a perfect crowd. I met Joseph Smith at a short distance from his dwelling, and was regularly introduced to him. I had the honour of an interview with him who is a prophet, a seer, a merchant, a "revelator," a president, an elder, an editor, and the general of the "Nauvoo legion." He is a coarse, plebeian person in aspect, and his countenance exhibits a curious mixture of the knave and the clown. His hands are large and fat, and on one of his fingers he wears a massive gold ring, upon which I saw an inscription. His dress was of coarse country manufacture, and his white hat was enveloped by a piece of black crape as a sign of mourning for his deceased brother, Don Carlos Smith, the late editor of the "Times and Seasons." His age is about thirty-five. I had not an opportunity of observing his eyes, as he appears deficient in that open, straightforward look which characterizes an honest man. He led the way to his house, accompanied by a host of elders, bishops, preachers, and common Mormons. On entering the house, chairs were provided for the prophet and myself, while the curious and gaping crowd remained standing. I handed the book to the prophet, and begged him to explain its contents. He asked me if I had any idea of its meaning. I replied, that I believed it to be a Greek Psalter; but that I should like to hear his opinion. "No," he said; "it ain't Greek at all; except, perhaps, a few words. What ain't Greek, is Egyptian; and what ain't Egyptian, is Greek. This book is very valuable. It is a dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Pointing to the capital letters at the commencement of each verse, he said: "Them figures is Egyptian hieroglyphics; and them which follows, is the interpretation of the hieroglyphics, written in the reformed Egyptian. Them characters is like the letters that was engraved on the golden plates." Upon this, the Mormons around began to congratulate me on the information I was receiving. "There," they said; "we told you so—we told you that our prophet would give you satisfaction. None but our prophet can explain these mysteries." The prophet now turned to me, and said, "this book ain't of no use to you, you don't understand it." "Oh yes," I replied; "it is of some use; for if I were in want of money, I could sell it, and obtain, perhaps, enough to live on for a whole year." "But what will you take for it?" said the prophet and his elders. "My price," I replied, "is higher than you would be willing to give." "What price is that?" they eagerly demanded. I replied, "I will not tell you what price I would take; but if you were to offer me this moment nine hundred dollars in gold for it, you should not have it." They then repeated their request that I should lend it to them until the prophet should have time to translate it, and promised me the most ample security; but I declined all their proposals. I placed the book in several envelopes, and as I deliberately tied knot after knot, the countenances of many among them gradually sunk into an expression of great despondency. Having exhibited the book to the prophet, I requested him in return to shew me his papyrus; and to give me his own explanation, which I had hitherto received only at second hand. He proceeded with me to his office, accompanied by the multitude. He produced the glass frames which I had seen on the previous day; but he did not appear very forward to explain the figures. I pointed to a particular hieroglyphic, and requested him to expound its meaning. No answer being returned, I looked up, and behold! the prophet had disappeared. The Mormons told me that he had just stepped out, and would probably soon return. I waited some time, but in vain: and at length descended to the street in front of the store. Here I heard the noise of wheels, and presently I saw the prophet in his waggon, flourishing his whip and driving away as fast as two fine horses could draw him. As he disappeared from view, enveloped in a cloud of dust, I felt that I had turned over another page in the great book of human nature.

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Posted by: elbert ( )
Date: December 27, 2013 11:43PM

1)The Hebrews never wrote in 'reformed' or any other Egyptian
2) The Hebrews didn't let 'families (Laban) hold onto whatever it was that they called scriptures---only temple priests or the king (in this case, Josiah) had them; and I venture to say very, very few copies of them, if that.
3 The Hebrews never wrote in 'plates'. If so unimportant a 'family' as Laban had plates, then everybody in authority had plates. Nobody has unearthed plates. Ergo??
something that has always bothered me: why "abridge"? ?That is, taking one set and coying it into more condensed version. there are not enough plates to go around, why bother? But that's another story.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 12:03AM

Egyptology was the big buzz word when Joseph Smith was alive. Scientist who studied ancient civilizations were making a lot of exciting discoveries in that part of the world. Unfortunately for Smith, they were making these discoveries a lot faster then he appreciated, so a lot of the best proof that he was a false prophet, comes from his hilarious attempts at being a self proclaimed Egypt expert.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 12:21AM

Strangely, even before I had my epiphany right before I turned 9 that the cult was all bs, I somehow knew that "reformed Egyptian" was just made up bs. I would have been about 6 or 7. I knew about hieroglyphics, & had watched documentaries on ancient Egypt. The only place I had ever heard about "reformed Egyptian" was at church, & it just didn't make sense to me at all. Especially when written Hebrew already existed. & also because "RE" didn't look anything like hieroglyphics.

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 01:04AM

Anybody - thanks for posting that written account. I have not seen it before and it explains it some, but I still think the people must have been somewhat stupid. According to this account, there is nothing in it that should make them feel MORE confidant in their profit.
Speaking of profit, I wonder what would have happened if the Mos would have been able to purchase the document for 900 dollars in gold........TSCC would have yet another book of lies to go with the 3 they have now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2013 01:07AM by verilyverily.

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Posted by: Davo ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 01:33AM

If the Gold Plates were delivered to Smith exactly as he claimed, every bit being true, Joseph Smith "translated" nothing.
He merely copied God's words from the peep stone. If anybody did the translating, it was God. Smith simply read the English
words, which wondrously appeared there, to his scribes.
Smith's job description should be (if it were all true):
Joseph Smith. Prophet, Seer, Revelator and TRANSCRIBER.
"Translator" = yet another lie.

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Posted by: Davo ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 01:34AM

If the Gold Plates were delivered to Smith exactly as he claimed, every bit being true, Joseph Smith "translated" nothing.
He merely copied God's words from the peep stone. If anybody did the translating, it was God. Smith simply read the English
words, which wondrously appeared there, to his scribes.
Smith's job description should be (if it were all true):
Joseph Smith. Prophet, Seer, Revelator and TRANSCRIBER.
"Translator" = yet another lie.

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Posted by: Yaqoob ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 02:52AM

The "reformed Egyptian" was just the writing system - the alphabet if you will - that was used to transcribe the Hebrew that Lehi spoke.

Hebrew belongs to a totally different language family (Semitic) than (any form of) Egyptian.

This means that Lehi's family fluently spoke and wrote a Hebrew dialect that utilized an updated descendant of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

So, that's the deal with the Reformed Egyptian used to write the ancient Hebrew in the Book of Mormon.

Ignorance is bliss, no?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2013 02:54AM by Yaqoob.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 04:01AM

That's what I meant about it being bs. Because there was already written Hebrew. No need for some made up "RE" crap.

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Posted by: buddyjoe ( )
Date: December 28, 2013 05:01AM

If U have money and don't realy ask, I speak reformed egytian very well.

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