I got this off the Trib comments from the article, "Can Mormons Back Same-Sex Marriage and Still Get in the Temple?" The argument was the disadvantage of untrained bishops over professionally trained pastors:


"Although it is not required that a bishop be a returned missionary, most are. Two years of teaching the gospel full time is equal to the type of training that "trained clergy" get in religious seminaries. Plus, most also have religion classes at BYU or other institute programs. They are instructed to refer members to trained councilors for non-religious issues. Your assessment of bishops is way off the mark."


Reminds me of when Ann Romney told the reporter that Mitt's LDS missionary work held the same status as US military service.

That's like saying having season tickets for an NBA team makes you an NBA player.

Plus, their definition of what constitutes a "non religious issue" is very narrow.

and training to be a minister.

The two experiences are nothing alike.

Once again, Cheryl, I find myself in absolute agreement with you. I also agree with the poster who says it's similar to Ann Romney thinking Mitt's time in France was anything like military service. Now, to be fair, I've never been a Mormon missionary, though I've seen and talked to many of them. But, I did deploy to Iraq. I'm sure missionaries miss their moms, as do many service members. However, the similarity ends there. When the missionaries start walking around in full body armor in 118 F heat, with danger around every corner, they'll long for Cheryl's garden hose!

...well, you could say Mitt's time in France WAS like military service. He ended up killing his Mission President's wife.......

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/17/1110907/-Mitt-Romney-s-Driving-Killed-Leola-Anderson-His-Cover-Up-Tale-is-Proved-Dishonest

Good point.

The Andersons were very good friends of my TBM parents. We were in the same ward in San Bernardino, CA.

It was a sad time for all of us when 'Sister Anderson' was killed.

Myth Romney has been lying ever since.........

Having served as both a missionary and an officer of the American armed forces, I'm pretty sure the accident that killed Sis. Anderson isn't really representative of either experience. Statistically, it's just a thing that happens, with greater frequency when youth and carelessness are involved.

The smear campaign that seems to have followed is much more indicative of elitism and sociopathy than anything else.

Saying it was "like the military" because he was responsible for someone's death is mildly offensive to those of us who actually were in the military.

+ 100

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "Although it is not required that a bishop be a
> returned missionary, most are. Two years of
> teaching the gospel full time is equal to the type
> of training that "trained clergy" get in religious
> seminaries. Plus, most also have religion classes
> at BYU or other institute programs. They are
> instructed to refer members to trained councilors
> for non-religious issues. Your assessment of
> bishops is way off the mark."

"Please pass me another cup of denial fantasy and self-deception."
"Here it is."

> Ann Romney told the reporter
> that Mitt's LDS missionary work held the same
> status as US military service.

"Thanks, Honey."
"You're welcome, Sweetie."

This former poster was quoting his mission president who attended Westpoint for a time and claimed to know what he was talking about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2014 09:11AM by Cheryl.

I think people who have never been exposed to a congregation led by trained clergy just have no clue what it even means. Not only that, they have congregations wherein the congregants have no say in anything. It all comes from Big Brother.

We had a really hard incident happen in our church this past year. I spent so much time thinking about what it would have been like if that had happened in a mormon congregation. It would have just been an excommunication or two, everyone else told to shut up and keep praying, paying and obeying and life would have gone on like nothing happened. And there would have been so much gossip, backbiting, hurt people, disaffections, etc. Not that we didn't have any of that, because we did. But we also had cottage meetings where we could get it out in the open, talk about it, ask pointed questions to our minister and Board president, vote on some resolutions, and most of all HEAL.

There is not a mormon I know, not the prophet, not anyone who could have handled that situation as well as it was handled. The training, education and experience of the minister was so evident. The input of the congregation so important. But I realized that people who think the mormon lay ministry has any kind of redeeming qualities are just ignorant of anything else. As soon as you see the difference you can't understand how you ever could have thought there was anything good about an engineer or teacher or even doctor or lawyer or rich bastard Mitt trying to be a minister.

I won't put it in its own thread, and it is IRL information, but I am proud of my SIL who is, as an "LDS" chaplain (the military actually merely recognizes Mormon chaplains as "Protestant" and makes them frequently do Protestant stuff), is getting a doctorate of divinity right now. No one in the LDS church is as religiously informed and well-trained as its chaplains. How they deal with the cognitive thing is beyond me, but they get to hobnob with the GAs when attending Conference, so maybe that keeps them on the narrow Mormon path.

(Now that I think about it, though, I believe that lying slime ball baseball star wannabe Paul H. Dunn also had a degree in divinity--maybe not a doctorate.)

The trained clegry in my church have the equivalent of a Masters Degree. They all attend a 4 year school and then seminary. They have to intern at a church before graduation. Most are called as Associates before they are called to their own church. Yep, just like a mishie.

I'm still a relative newcomer to this church and keep a low profile, but I had a heart-to-heart talk with our pastor after finding out how much training they have. They not only have to study Greek and Hebrew and be able to read various Biblical texts in those languages, but they are also well trained in how to deal with crisis issues - what they can handle and what to pass along to someone with more professional training.

I made a fairly substantial contribution to the Pastoral Training Fund and told our pastor about the piss-poor requirements for being a Mormon bishop. He had heard about it vaguely, but had no idea that they had virtually NO training, and yet took it upon themselves to counsel people in all kinds of crises. He was genuinely shocked.

Well, I HAVE been a missionary and I can tell you that it's bullcrap to think it trains you to be in a Mormon leadership position, equal to the trained clergy in other religions. You get some training but it's more like comparing what you learned selling Mary Kay to what someone learned at University of Utah, getting an MBA in business. Of course you learn something about sales, you have training meetings, books, real life experience but it's in no way the educational equivalent. Where a pastor learns counseling skills, missionaries learn to listen merely to resolve differences and sell their product. Where a pastor often learns Greek or Hebrew to study early bible translations, missionaries are not encouraged to dig deeply into doctrine but to parrot the surface teachings of the church. It's called milk before meat but that doesn't make it better. If you've been on a mission, you probably do know more about how to run a ward than someone who hasn't but you don't come near to knowing what a trained pastor knows about how to lead a congregation.

It's utter nonsense. Even fulfilling a 5-year assignment as bishop doesn't qualify as clergy training. Unless I'm very much mistaken, professional clergy are trained not just in their own church's doctrine, but in interpersonal skills like conflict resolution. I imagine they are also schooled pretty thoroughly in legal issues that can affect their interactions with their congregants (confessions, political activism, etc.).

Absolutely. What they don't get is that the important part of the training isn't the theological portion.

Mormon missions seem to be all about making converts out of anyone you can get to listen to you. Quantity over quality, and most of the time it seems its all about how to sell, persuade, evade, backpedal, omit, or forget. It's a race to the baptismal font, first and foremost, many times. I am neverMo and I have never served a mission, but I have sat through several sets of discussions with other people who have thought (and some who did) convert to being Mormon. Under extreme pressure, healthy does of guilt being thrown about and with urgency/time limits being set to do so, it seems to me.

Religious degrees and lengthy theological training and even what I call "real" missions where you are doing service in a hospital providing care to all, as part of a church group, for example, are about loving the people who come to you to teach them what you have studied, and also about loving what you studied. And many times it is all about the other person, not you, and is about medicine or education or doing good in the greater world, not to please your mission president or to make yourself look good to others, versus what can be seen in some religions with their mission groups.

Now, I don't happen to believe any version of the Gospel and believe an awful lot of hooey is taught any time religion is being bandied about, and I make no claims for the truthiness of either side's version of the truth.

But, I can say that a 2 yr mission with the main goal of selling as many baptisms as you can, to rope as many tithe payers in as you can, and some high school seminary classes taught to teenagers is in no way equivalent to the serious, dedicated, long term study of any religion, anywhere, by anybody else.

Additionally, being a trusted councilor and a good community/group leader requires some skills which are the polar opposite of those which are necessary to be a successful door-to-door saleman.

I imagine any Mormon bishop who is a trusted councilor and a good leader must divorce himself from those skills he learned as a missionary while in those roles.

Credentials for a bishop I once knew:


Education-12 grade (1947)
Farmer/construction worker
Never taught a religion class
Mostly a scout leader
Never read BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP
Abused his own kids
Used wife like a servant
Vile violent tempered
Knew nothing about how a family should function. Grew up in orphanage, was never home for his own kids.
Racist, sexist,no respect for anyone who was educated. Especially DR's

A bishop's "Church experience" is almost useless in counselling. All that is taught through the Church as a missionary, ward underling or even as the bishop himself is that any problem can be resolved through more Mormonism. Because Mormonism preaches salvation through works and ordinances, the only tools the bishop has is to prescribe ever greater intensity of Mormon practice. Few of life's challenges are coped with by diverting attention into irrelevant works and ordinances.

I remember once visiting a new family in our ward with my elders quorum president. They were experiencing some challenges. We learned that the husband was a "prospective elder." The EQP immediately began making plans for him to be advanced in the priesthood. This was his entire mindset: if the husband receives the Melchizedek Priesthood his life will improve. The notion of helping him improve his life might lead him to desire the priesthood was inconceivable.

If a bishop acquires wisdom through life experience, professional training or family life, he could impart that just as effectively as a "friend." His professional advice could even be impaired by restrictions of his calling. A TBM member may reject a bishop offering practical advice in his professional capacity because it doesn't conform to their LDS prejudices.

Two of my past bishops were lawyers. When they advised us on legal matters each explicitly noted that they were not advising us as bishops. My wife (now ex) flatly refused a lawyer's advice because it contradicted her impression of what an LDS family should do.

To be sure, there is a wide definition of "trained clergy," depending on the sect.

You will find that mainstream Protestant and Catholic clergy have a minimum of Master's degrees or the equivalent. Many have doctorates. Their education typically starts with a bachelor's degree which includes a thorough grounding in the social sciences and psychology. Grad school is not limited to divinity or aspects of religion by any means, and will almost certainly include upper level courses in counseling, conflict resolution, family dynamics, etc.

But Mormons aren't the only ones lacking in trained clergy. There's a host of "independent" denoms across the face of the land that send their pastors to Bahble Schools to git eddicated to deliver the gospel to their congregants. Most of them are no better trained than Mormons.

I play music with a young woman who goes by "Reverend," but she just preaches the good word once a month at a back lot church. She's never been to college. But this is Georgia.

Yeah, for sure, there's a pretty wide range of education and training among non-Catholic, non-LDS Christians (I don't like the word "Protestant," as it is historically inaccurate to describe some groups as Protestant...but I digress). That said, most medium-sized (say 500) or larger churches want their senior pastor to have a Master of Divinity (at least), which they gain from a SEMINARY (in the real sense of the word).

That's typically a 90 to 96 semester hour program (as compared to 36 semester hours for a typical MA or MS). As as mentioned here, there is deep training on Greek, Hebrew, counseling, Bible, preaching and public speaking, and theology. There are also several solid courses on Christian history...and any seminarian will see that the LDS lie their asses off about Christian history.

I'm sure most Mormons would be disappointed to know that seminaries don't spend their whole time teaching students how to debunk Mormonism. Some offer courses in Cults...even there, Mormons don't get a lengthy treatment (not when you have Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongism, and so many others). Comparative religion or apologetics courses might mention the Mormons, but the treatment there is even shorter. Some (optional) courses on the history of Christianity in America mention Mormonism...again, very briefly.

So, a couple paragraphs is all Mormonism rates in a Christian seminary education (outside the Morridor, at least)...but a whole lot of time spent learning how to minister to people in spiritual, emotional, and physical need.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2014 09:15AM by stillburned.

If you are having serious issues that are tearing your family apart, do you rush to the dentist?

If your husband is abusive to your daughter, do you seek the counsel of the garage mechanic?

If someone in your family is suicidal, do you immediately call your accountant?

If you rush to the bishop in a time of crises, who are you really asking for help? Because the Bishop for most of the time is your dentist, or your accountant, or the guy who sold you your car.

So what is their training now to guide you spiritually? Not a ministerial education. No. Not a tutorial in crisis management. Not a course in psychology? No. They have something even better. The Bishop has a handy dandy manual and the Holy Ghost himself. That actually sounds good to Mormons probably, that don't realize that the Holy Ghost gives a different answer to the same problem every time he uses a different Bishop as a medium.

And being an RM as qualification? Hmmmnnn. I'm trying to remember on my mission when we were educated on counseling those who were facing difficult life decisions or terrifying emotional ordeals. Let's see . . .I remember something about numbers, meeting your quotas . . . no, wait. That wasn't it.

Oh, now I remember. We were taught the one size fits all answer to everything. Obedience.

You forgot the second law....sacrifice!! The two great laws of heaven (in Mormonism)

When I was a mid-twenty-something RM, BYU grad, temple-married to an eternal companion who was starting to physically assault me (after throwing her diamond wedding ring down the garbage disposal one day), in desperation I went to my bishop for advice. He noted that we had been married fours years and still had no children. His advice was that we should have a baby and things would be better.

We almost followed his advice. My eternal companion got pregnant accidentally and got an abortion as absolutely as soon as absolutely possible. The violence got worse and worse.

Other than that, the bishop's advice was pretty solid ... solid like a constipation turd.

Perfect illustration of the problem. I enjoyed reading that although I doubt you enjoyed living that.