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Posted by: oldwoman ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 03:28PM


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Posted by: oldwoman ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 03:30PM

Should read Celestial Kingdom. Member says no prophet ever said that polygamy is required for celestial kingdom.

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Posted by: The other Sofia ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 04:06PM

Absolutely was taught that growing up and during my single adult days in the church. Common knowledge in the 70-90's.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 04:07PM

Of course Mormons believe it lasts into CK. That is the whole point of a temple sealing.

Whether it is required is a different question. I suspect there are quotes on both sides of that issue. BY certainly thought polygamy was required. Current leaders seem to mostly dodge the question, or use the Hinckley Weasel Maneuver.

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Posted by: The other Sofia ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 04:13PM

We were taught that while it wasn't technically "required" a faithful first wife would of course give her permission for her husband to take additional wives. I had RMs actually ask about my ability to live that principle, not because they were polygamists, but as a test of my faithfulness. It was taught that it would be restored eventually, at least during the Millenium, if not before. Afterall, it was only discontined due to the "wickedness of man."

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Posted by: brett ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 04:18PM

Sec 132 of the D&C outlines the laws governing plural marriage and that it's part of the "new and everlasting covenant"

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 04:22PM

D&C 132

Verse 1: We are talking about polygamy.
Verse 3: If I tell you about this you have to do it.
Verse 4: Polygamy is the new and EVERLASTING (emphasis added) covenant. Anyone who rejects it cannot enter into my presence.
Verse 5: Do it or I'll fuck you up.

From the horses ass.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 04:25PM

Bruce R. McConkie wrote in Mormon Doctrine in the section "Plural Marriage" that polygamy would come back in the Millennium:

"Obviously the holy practice will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium. (Isa. 4.)"

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 05:36PM

My father spoke dreamily of gathering extra wives in the hereafter. He married a cold, selfish woman for her father's money. So money's what he was really hereafter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2014 05:37PM by donbagley.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 06:26AM

That must not have worked out all that well. You guys were poor.

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Posted by: redpillswallowed ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 06:11PM

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 11, p. 269)

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266).

Section 131 of the D&C has an insert from Brigham Young, in verse 2:
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

Crossing checking this: [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage] that is still canonized, with Section 132 and pre-1900 LDS Church History and there is no question Polygamy was taught as a requirement to go the the CK.


Also, in 1891 the First Presidency and Apostles of the Mormon Church made the following statement in a petition to the President of the United States: "We formerly taught to our people that polygamy or celestial marriage as commanded by God through Joseph Smith was right; that it was a necessity to man's highest exaltation in the life to come." (Reed Smoot Case, vol. 1, page 18)

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 07:33PM

http://utlm.org/newsletters/no66.htm#ABSOLUTELY%20ESSENTIAL

Also:

In a sermon reported in the LDS Church's Deseret News, August 6, 1862, Brigham Young stated:

Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire. . . . Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers. . . .

Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. "And is that religion popular in heaven?" It is the only popular religion there . . . (Deseret News, August 6, 1862)

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Posted by: cynthia ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 06:15PM

I have a friend who has been divorced for many years, she was not sealed to her first husband. She is soon to be marrying a widower and will be sealed to him. That would be a polygamous marriage in the celestial kingdom, if any of this stuff was true.

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Posted by: Saucie ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 07:46PM

Heck yeah it was taught.... that was supposed to be the big


drawing card for making it to the celestial kingdom.... sex

with many women. Of course it was no perk for women... being

pregnant all the ghawd damn time. Like thats a really cool

thing. Right.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 07:53PM

to be accepted in the CK.

The church changed that after the second manifesto.

But it was always expected that every man would have many wives to people the planets males governed as gods.

Someone came up with the idea that the first wife could refuse sister wives she didn't like. I started hearing that one probably in the 1960's.

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 09:00PM

But apologists nowadays say that the new and everlasting covenant only refers to the priesthood's sealing power concerning marriage, not that it meant plural marriage.

Where did they get that idea? Is there anything to back up that interpretation?

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 09:07PM

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the anew and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.


I don't know how you can read this and not understand to to refer to polygamy.

Verse 1: We are talking about polygamy.
Verse 2: Here comes your answer.
Verse 3: If I tell you about this you have to do it.
Verse 4: Polygamy is the new and EVERLASTING (emphasis added) covenant. Anyone who rejects it cannot enter into my presence.
Verse 5: If you have any problems than ask for a laying on of hands.
Verse 6: Do it or I'll fuck you up.

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Posted by: crom ( )
Date: February 24, 2014 09:04PM

“The whole history of ancient Israel was one in which plurality of wives was a divinely accepted and approved order of matrimony ... Obviously the holy practice will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, “Plural Marriage”

Nice SL Trib article on the question.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52412444-78/polygamy-mormon-hudson-lds.html.csp



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2014 09:09PM by crom.

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Posted by: madalice ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 12:14AM

This is a very bad reference.

I was watching one of those plig shows. They made the comment that a man couldn't go to the ck unless he had 3 wives. Don't know where they get that idea. I'm guessing if you read something out of the sermons of the prophets of the past you'll find that said somewhere.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 05:20AM


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Posted by: jdawg333 ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 05:35AM

I was never taught growing up that it was essential for salvation, but rather that it was still an eternal principle. (In the next life, a man can have multiple wives if his first wife consents.)

Although polygamy cannot currently be practiced with two living wives, a man can still be sealed to more than one woman. So he would be married to both in the celestial kingdom. A woman, on the other hand, is required to cancel her first sealing if she wishes to be sealed to her second husband.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 05:45AM

Look no further than Dallin H. Oaks. He is sealed for time and all eternity to two women.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 06:34AM

"Mormons believe that God is a polygamist, that polygamy is and will continue to be practiced in heaven and the Millennium, and is being practiced right now in temples, as Mormon men are sealed to more than one woman. This is why Mr. [Gordon B.] Hinckley’s comment of 'condemning it' and expressly stating 'I think it is not doctrinal' were so surprisingly shocking.

"Would Mr. Hinckley knowingly condemn God and his lifestyle and the order of heaven??? Declare something to not be doctrinal that his very own apostles have participated in—the sealing to more than one woman???

"Dallin Oaks recently said in 2002 'When I was 66, my wife June died of cancer. Two years later--a year and a half ago--I married Kristen McMain, the eternal companion who now stands at my side (http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1...).' . . .

"Joseph Fielding Smith said this in regards to his experience in being sealed to more than one woman in the temple, 'my wives will be mine in eternity.' (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p.67).”

"Harold B. Lee said this, in a poem, of his similar situation of his two wives that were sealed to him, My lovely Joan was sent to me; So Joan joins Fern That three might be, more fitted for eternity. 'O Heavenly Father, my thanks to thee' (Deseret News 1974 Church Almanac, p.17).

"Even former Utah Senator was counseled by former Mormon president Spencer Kimball to embrace the idea of polygamy. Taken from the Ensign article 'Uniting Blended Families', by Robert E. Wells, Ensign, Aug. 1997, p.24:

“'Former Utah senator Jake Garn was reluctant to remarry following the death of his first wife, Hazel, in 1976, but he soon realized that he could not be both a father and a mother to his children. When he began dating Kathleen Brewerton, who would become his second wife, questions soon arose about how his first wife would feel should he become sealed to a second wife. The couple took their questions to President Spencer W. Kimball.

"'He said he did not know exactly how these relationships will be worked out, but he did know that through faithfulness all will be well and we will have much joy. Brother Garn later recalled. Kathleen told him that she was afraid of offending Hazel. President Kimball's demeanor seemed to change. From being somewhat hesitant in his earlier answers, he now became sure and spoke with firmness. He looked right at Kathleen and with a tear forming in his eye, he said, 'I do know this: you have nothing to worry about. Not only will she accept you, she will put her arms around you and thank you for raising her children' (Jake Garn, Why I Believe [1992], 13).'"

("Mormons Are Still Polygamists," posted by "shaman channel," 19 July 2007)
_____


Here's another examination, along the same lines, but a bit more expansive:

--Mormon Men are Today Being Secretly Polygamously Married in LDS Temples--

POLYGAMOUS MARRIAGES AND SEALINGS STILL BEING PERFORMED IN PRESENT-DAY MORMON TEMPLES

Despite its efforts to mislead the public and the press, the “mainstream” Mormon Church continues to permit faithful Mormon men to be polygamously married in heaven-sanctioned, temple-performed, secret ceremonies to other women, in the event of the death of the man’s previous wife or in the case of divorce.

Mormon Apostle Charles W. Penrose explained this practice some 111 years ago--one which is still being officially followed by the Mormon Church today:

“In the case of a man marrying a wife in the everlasting covenant who dies while he continues in the flesh and marries another by the same divine law, each wife will come forth in her order and enter with him into his glory.”

(Penrose, "’Mormon’ Doctrine Plain and Simple, or Leaves from the Tree of Life,” p. 66).


Sandra Tanner lists examples of modern-day polygamous marriages that have been present-day sanctioned and performed in Mormonism’s temples:

“This doctrine [of polygamous marriage] was reaffirmed in October of 2007 at the funeral for the second wife of President Howard W. Hunter, the fourteenth President of the LDS Church. The Deseret News reported:

“’President Hinckley affirmed the eternal nature of the marriage between Sister [Inis] Hunter and the former church president, whose first wife, Claire Jeffs, died after a long battle with Alzheimer's disease and is now buried beside him in the Salt Lake Cemetery. Inis Hunter "will now be laid to rest on the other side," he said. "They were sealed under the authority of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood for time and for all eternity," he said, recalling the marriage ceremony he performed for them in the Salt Lake Temple in April 1990.’ ('Sister Hunter's Humor and Cheerfulness remembered as She is Laid to Rest,' in "Deseret News," Oct. 22, 2007).


“Another example of plural sealings is Apostle Russell M. Nelson's marriage in 2006 to a BYU professor. The BYU NewsNet for April 7, 2006, announced the temple marriage of Apostle Nelson, age 81, to Wendy Watson. . . . His first wife died in February of 2005 and this was the first marriage for his new wife. This would mean, according to LDS beliefs, that Nelson has two wives sealed to him for eternity.

“Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth president of the LDS Church, remarried twice after the death of his first wife, and in his book, ‘Doctrines of Salvation,’ Vol. 2, p. 67, he remarked, ‘ . . . [M]y wives will be mine in eternity.’

“Harold B. Lee, the eleventh president of the Church, also remarried after his wife’s death and was sealed to another woman and was looking forward to a polygamous relationship in heaven. He, in fact, wrote a poem in which he reflected that his second wife, Joan, would join his first wife, Fern, as his eternal wives:

“’My lovely Joan was sent to me: So Joan joins Fern That three might be, more fitted for eternity. "O Heavenly Father, my thanks to thee.’ ('Deseret News,' 1974 Church Almanac, p. 17)"


According to cagily-talking Mormon apostle Quentin L. Cook, as recently quoted by the LDS Church-owned news station KSL:

"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often called Mormons, do not practice polygamy, and they have not practiced polygamy for over a century."

Yet, by his own admission and practice, fellow Mormon apostle and eternally blessed multi-wifer Dallin H. Oaks expressly contradicts his colleague Cook, claiming exactly the opposite in Oaks' own acknowledgment of what faithful Mormons currently are up to behind the secrecy-veiled walls of their present-day temples:

"When I was 66, my wife June died of cancer.

"Two years later--a year and a half ago--I married [in the LDS temple] Kristen McMain, the eternal companion who now stands at my side."

(Dallin Oaks, "Timing," speech delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, 29 January 2002)


Determining the maze of multiple Mormon matrimony in the hereafter can be messy, to say the least.

According to the official LDS Church Handbook of Instruction (p. 72), the following living, loyal Latter-day Saints can be polygamously and eternally sealed, or married in Mormon temples:

“Living Women — A living woman may be sealed to only one husband. . . .

“Living Men--If a husband and wife have been sealed and the wife dies, the man may have another woman sealed to him if she is not already sealed.”

Despite the confusing doctrinal problem of attempting to determine, in essence, who’s on first, second or third base in Mormonism’s polygamous marriage ballgame, the LDS Church continues to advocate temple sealings to multiple spouses.

For example, Mormon General Authority Robert E. Wells, in a article entitled “United Blended Families,” gave the example of Mormon and former U.S. Senator Jake Garn, following the death of Garn’s first wife:

“Former Utah senator Jake Garn was reluctant to remarry following the death of his first wife, Hazel, in 1976, but he soon realized that he could not be both a father and a mother to his children. When he began dating Kathleen Brewerton, who would become his second wife, questions soon arose about how his first wife would feel should he become sealed to a second wife. The couple took their questions to President Spencer W. Kimball.

“He said he did not know exactly how these relationships will be worked out, but he did know that through faithfulness all will be well and we will have much joy. Brother Garn later recalled. Kathleen told him that she was afraid of offending Hazel. President Kimball's demeanor seemed to change. From being somewhat hesitant in his earlier answers, he now became sure and spoke with firmness. He looked right at Kathleen and with a tear forming in his eye, he said, ‘I do know this: you have nothing to worry about. Not only will she accept you, she will put her arms around you and thank you for raising her children.’

(Jake Garn, "Why I Believe" [1992], p. 13).


“Family members need not worry about the sealing situation of blended families as it might be in the next life. Our concern is to live the gospel now and to love others, especially those in our family. If we live the gospel to the best of our ability, the Lord in His love and mercy will bless us in the next life and all things will be right."

(Wells, "Uniting Blended Families," "Ensign," August 1997, p. 24)


Sandra Tanner points out the problems presented by polygamous temple sealings—a practice secretly engaged in by the present-day Mormon Church:

“Temple sealings are all-important to the LDS people and designate who will be joined to whom in the hereafter.

“These blended families raise a number of problems for the LDS concept of the eternal union of the family unit. In the case of children born to a mother in a second marriage, but where the mother was sealed to the first husband, would the children be considered part of the first temple marriage? Wouldn't this leave the second husband, the actual father, out of the picture?

“Assuming the second husband has gone through the temple, but not sealed to this wife, would the children stay with the second husband? Would they then be deprived of their mother, who is sealed to the first husband? The LDS Church has no answer.”
_____


CONCLUSION: HAS THE SO-CALLED "MAINSTREAM" MORMON CHURCH REALLY DISCARDED POLYGAMY?

Based on the historical record, both past and present, Sandra Tanner addresses that central issue succinctly:

“ . . . [T]he doctrine and practice of plural marriage has not been abandoned, but only delayed until the afterlife. It seems the LDS Church simply wants to keep it out of the public eye for better public relations and fear of being identified with polygamist splinter groups.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2014 06:38AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: HopefulNOM ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 10:13AM

long-time lurker (nervous to comment...)
I'm BIC and I can at least speak for what I was taught. I don't recall ever being told that we would HAVE to practice plural marriage in heaven. Just that those that already had a polyg marriage (pre-manifesto, sealed and approved) would have their wives in heaven.

Also that those men that are widowed or civilly divorced and then sealed again could have both those wives in heaven. But those situations will be figured out after Jesus gets back.

I've only met one TBM that was hardcore pro polygamy. He was sure we'd all have to live it one day. I remember most everyone in my ward (even TBMs) thought he was weird.

Also, if Bruce said we'd have to live the law of plural marriage in The Miracle of Forgiveness, I'm not sure that means as much to modern TBMs. A lot of TBMs I know now distance themselves from that book.

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Posted by: HopefulNOM ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 10:15AM

p.s. I'm really scared to comment because I fear that I'll be "found out" because I'm still active. But I've been reading this forum for a long time and really appreciate everyone here.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 10:45AM

...whether they were inquiring about 19th-century dogma or modern-day. The documentation Steve provided shows that modern-day Mormon men who are sealed to multiple wives expect to continue those relationships in the celestial kingdom. Thus, the church still teaches and practices polygamy; but because the physical practice is illegal, they can only practice the "for eternity" part, rather than "for time and eternity."

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Posted by: HopefulNOM ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 11:05AM

I think "for eternity" polygamy is one of those beliefs that's still official but a lot of TBMs choose to ignore it or just don't think about it. But then I also wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot men that hope they'll get to have a bunch of wives in the CK one day.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 08:06PM

"I think "for eternity" polygamy is one of those beliefs that's still official but a lot of TBMs choose to ignore it or just don't think about it."

Yep, it's not discussed much anymore because the men don't want their wives to get upset.

"But then I also wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of men that hope they'll get to have a bunch of wives in the CK one day."

Yep, that concept still exists in Mormon culture, but men have to be careful about who they repeat it to. I've heard some Mormon men half-jokingly---or, more like it, longingly---say that they would like to have such-and-such single woman as a plural wife in the CK. Of course, what they really mean is that they think the woman is attractive and they would make an advance on her if it wasn't for modern social taboos.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 08:11PM

"Also, if Bruce said we'd have to live the law of plural marriage in The Miracle of Forgiveness, I'm not sure that means as much to modern TBMs. A lot of TBMs I know now distance themselves from that book."

Bruce R. McConkie's book to which you're referring is "Mormon Doctrine." "The Miracle of Forgiveness" was published by Spencer Kimball.

Regardless of what most modern TBMs believe, what matters more is what church leaders have actually taught. The statements cited in this thread make their teachings clear. It doesn't matter if modern church leaders never repeat those teachings again; they can't escape their earlier prophets' teachings which were repeated for half a century.

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Posted by: rgg ( )
Date: February 25, 2014 08:20PM

I haven't any quotes to share but do remember being taught this in the 1970s. I was grossed out by it and my MIA teacher told me that men have stronger sex drives than women and that was her reasoning, I guess. Stupid cult.

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Posted by: AnonNow ( )
Date: February 26, 2014 12:53PM

Though not a reference, I'm going to include the following. This I write without regard to religion, ethics, morality, right vs wrong, or anything else. It is just a simple, and mathematically provable, statement of fact.

And, it might get me in trouble, in multiple ways. But who cares. :-)

***************************
For any society that:

1. Has (roughly) an equal number of boys and girls born each year, AND...
2. Has (roughly) equal mortality rates between boys and girls, AND...
3. Has very few, if any, divorces, AND...
4. Everyone gets married, AND...
5. Girls, on average, choose a husband who is older than them, AND...
6. The society is growing, THEN...

For such a society, plural marriage must exist.

If it does not exist in that society, then it means one or more of the above six items is false for that people.

This must be the case because *if* the above six items are all true, it means that a larger set of girls from a later generation is marrying, on average, a smaller set of boys from an earlier generation, due to the growing population, and the fact that the girls (on average) are marrying men older than themselves.

Incidentally, most of the developed world has shrinking populations right now, and this would cause the opposite problem. To see this, Google the birth rate of each country. Many countries are not reproducing at a sustainable birth rate, and their populations will (eventually) shrink as a result. This causes the opposite problem.

Nevin

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