Re: "President Monson has no plans to attend the Court" - Oh Really? (This post was by Anon for this. I tried to cut and paste that info.)
This is a joke post, right?
Do you really think that the US would extradite an 80+ yr old US citizen who leads a group of 5+ million other citizens? Really?
Do you think the UK would even ask? 5-6 US senators are Mormon (if memory serves) and several Mormons are in the House of Representatives. Senators wield a lot of power and Cameron knows this. Do you think he would risk doing something so politically foolish?
Regardless of the merits of the case, let's not go to fantasy land. Monson isn't showing up and nothing is going to come of it. I'd bet $500 on it and would be happy to pay up if I'm wrong.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2014 05:52PM by Susan I/S.
Anon -- you totally rock. EOM.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2014 02:02AM by janeeliot.
If the conman Monson cannot turn up at court, although he can travel 1500 miles to and from Arizona, do walkabouts in the pouring rain, gesturing wildly to the deluded, that's just fine. I am sure the UK judge will deliberate on Monson's absence based on his recent travelogue. The question I have is this. Why don't the hypocritical High Priests in SL not obey their own standards that they arrogantly impose on the fawning flock? Not only do they conveniently ignore their own articles of faith, they treat an official summons from a sovereign court with arrogant disrespect. The Mormon church and its financial conmen of a celestial nature, may be in for a rude awakening. The bigoted and socially divisive theocratic laws in Utah, just don't apply in the UK.
Don't over-estimate the "influence" that senators -even Mormon senators- have on the leaders of other countries. It's none. Zilch. David Cameron has far far bigger problems just now than a court case concerning an elderly American.
The issue of accommodating the "we believe in honouring upholding and sustaining the law" is the one which intrigues me, as well as that raised so well a previous thread: why would a Prophet of God need a lawyer? That's the area to concentrate on. Missionaries abide by the law in the areas to which they are called. Roll on Friday!
Hmmm... I'm sure David Cameron cares a great deal about what portion the UK receives in military spending bills.
Is he interested in getting UK companies preferential tax treatment in the US?
And let's be crystal clear. Every US president is just as concerned about maintaining good relations with UK politicians as well. You bet the US wants to stay in the good graces of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and wouldn't risk it over an insignificant legal matter.
If you think British courts wouldn't prosecute an old man because he's famous, you should google Rolf Harris, Dave Lee Travis, William Roach & Max Clifford. They are all tons more famous than Tommy is in Britain.
Remember "A Man for all Seasons"? - 'However high you are the law is above you'
I believe the Mormon Corporation and its cabal of dutifully endowed lawyers, are busy contorting all credulity and throwing everything they possibly can in halting the forthcoming court process. The "church" and its followers, no doubt, would far prefer to do their shady deals behind closed doors, than defend their financial shenanigans in full view of the public glare. The Mormon Corp. has been summoned by HM Justiciary to answer serious charges of major financial fraud. Yet the so called especial witnesses and prophets of God, it seems, would rather send their overpaid professional "advisers" to defend their Celestial asses. So much for being valiant in the testimony of Jesus! What a disreputable bunch of whited sepulchres.
The question shouldn’t be, will Monson appear? But, what will happen if he doesn't?
I have no wish to offend anyone & I say this with the greatest respect for everyone posting here (apart from the trolls) but it gets a little tedious having to constantly correct the views of people whose knowledge of English law is sometimes almost non-existent. I’m not pointing the finger at anyone in particular so if I do cause offence I apologise in advance.
Monson has been 'summoned' to appear at a hearing to determine if he should be sent to a crown court for trial. This isn't a polite request from some 3rd world dictator it's a summons from the highest Magistrates court in the UK, a country with one of the oldest & most respected judicial systems in the world.
I have no idea whether Monson will turn up, I have no idea if the court will allow a representative to appear for him, it seems unlikely unless the LDS can provide a reason acceptable to the court. I have no idea if there will be an adjournment & a date set for another hearing, again it’s unlikely but possible. The one thing I do know for sure is that if Monson doesn’t appear without the prior permission of the Judge the hearing will most likely go ahead in his absence.
As to the ‘impossibility’ of extradition, the view among many of our US friends seems to be that UK courts stand in awe of US politicians. It should be understood that if a UK court issues a warrant for Monson’s arrest the UK government will have no choice but to apply for extradition. Yes that’s right, over here the government is subject to the law administered by UK courts.
Everyone in the UK knows that the current treaty between the US & the UK isn’t working as it should & many are angry at the cynical way the treaty is applied. I’ve said this before & it’s true, at the moment it’s all one-way traffic & the UK electorate is getting rather tired of seeing our citizens being extradited to the US while we wait in vain for one of yours. "How dare they try to extradite one of our citizens" seems to be the watchword at times. The US government doesn't hesitate to apply for extradition of those they want to see in US courts so please don't imagine that we will continue to bow the knee to a few US politicians no one over here has ever heard of, especially when the man before the court is accused of defrauding UK taxpayers out of tens of millions of pounds. Remember there's an election coming along next year & even if Cameron was able to make a choice between the wishes/demands of US senators or the wishes of the British electorate, guess which he will choose.
And I think that's the point. Even if the UK requests extadition, the US will never comply. Whether the church uses a first amendment argument, or just its political connections, ther's not a snowball's chance in hell that Monson will appear in the UK against his will.
How will the magistrate respond to this? I have no idea. My guess is that, because it's a corporate matter and Monson is being summoned because he runs the corporation, that the magistrate will accept the appearance of legal representatives instead, and that the church is working right now to make that happen.
" Remember there's an election coming along next year & even if Cameron was able to make a choice between the wishes/demands of US senators or the wishes of the British electorate, guess which he will choose."
Depends on what energy and/or defense contract interests that Senator has sway over. I can't imagine the London headlines would be great if UK companies were to lose a big contract due to some pork-laden appropriations bill. "Cameron bad for UK Business!"
If Brits are unhappy with the current treaty -- which I agree they have every reason to be unhappy with it -- then its time to renegotiate. But let's be real. Extradition treaties are intended to catch violent criminals or leaders of organized crime. They aren't really designed to geriatric men -- especially geriatric men with political influence inside one of your largest trading partners and economic allies.
"Even if the UK requests extadition, the US will never comply..."
A very simple questions in response
Why not, does your Government believe that US citizens or corporations can break with impunity the laws of countries outside the jurisdiction of the US simply because they are US citizens or corporations? Such arrogance is simply breathtaking.
If that is the case then any treaties between your country & ours might as well be torn up as they're not worth the paper they're written on to us. How many UK citizens are doing time in US prisons thanks to a totally one sided extradition treaty?
I don't thing the US government would see thing quite the way many people one the RFM bulletin board would. I think they'd comply with the treaties we have between our governments.
Unfortunately, IO, the general attitude is AMERICA, FUCK YEAH! I'm afraid realpolitik would trump if an extradition proceeding were issued against TSM. I think, however, that is irrelevant in this case for the simple reason that realpolitik cuts both ways. How many ££££ in land, building and bank assets are essentially hostage upon his good behavior? And that makes ALL the difference.
I thought that if Monson doesn't turn up (which we know he won't), then they might send out an arrest warrant, which means he (and possibly any future prophets) will never be able to come to the UK again, and possibly other countries as well, since some might send him over to the UK if he went there.
What are these prophet conmen frightened about. They possess the full authority and power of the almighty. Why don't they follow the great Captain Moroni and cloaked with the armour of truth an righteousness, stand up boldly in the defence of the Saviour, whom they regularly commune in the most holy place. The fact is they are professional liars, cowards and conmen who worship their true and only god - $$$$$$$$$. These 15 Celestial hypocrites and parasites, will continue hiding and cowering behind their paid up legal lackeys, with their demented followers nothing more than convenient dispensable fodder for these Mormon elitists and their coveted lifestyles.
Since the fraud was committed institutionally, perhaps the UK government could just arrest the highest ranking church leader on UK soil when Monson doesn't show up, and then force a plea and cooperation in the prosecution proceedings through that person. On another note, I wonder if the cult has moved a significant amount of funds out of UK banks in anticipation of sanctions against them if they don't plan to have Monson show up for his Summons.
My bishop insists Monson won't be showing up and that this will be dismissed on day one. He's sent an email confirming that view as official from my stakes leadership who apparently have it on authority that this is going nowhere and will be stopped by the church on day 1.
I honestly wonder why they smugly talk like the case being dismissed would automatically be a sheer win for the church. The reasons for dismissal will still be transparent. If the case is dismissed it will be a transparent dodge, not because any of the charges were flatly false, but because of loopholes in the law ALLOWING the actions of the church...or worse yet, going around the law by means such as OP cited...political intervention by these supposedly powerful LDS US congressmen. Would it exhonerate the church? Not really. To many observers it would simply demonstrate loopholes/dodges that allow activity that at least one important court considered highy suspect. If dismissed, is the church then going to flaunt its priviledge to act the way the charges said? Are they going to say "see, the court sided with us and our practices of 1,2,3..."? No, they'll resort to more revisions of policy to avoid it happening again, and they'll skirt the charges. Who are they fooling? As always, pretty much only indoctrinated members. Otherwise most observers recognize that a dismissal of the charges does not mean they didn't occur.
Monson got called out for being a fraud and if he will not DEFEND himself in court then he is nothing more than a coward and is obviously guilty of all charges. An innocent man would at the very minimum at least show up to testify to their own innocence.
He has been summonsed to DEFEND himself of accusations of being a con man, thief and liar and when he doesn't show up to DEFEND himself the court will try the case w/out him present, render the cult guilty and seize their assets.
These boys are stewing right now and their little whites-only country club is going bye-bye sooner than I had ever hoped.
Thank you Tom(not the liar) for bringing down the cult.
Imo it was a stupid thing for the stake to claim. Come March 14th, if it doesn't get kicked but becomes a case they are going to look like A holes and be on the back foot for explaining yet another error in spiritual foresight.
One more comment. "He's sent an email confirming that view as official from my stakes leadership who apparently have it on authority that this is going nowhere and will be stopped by the church on day 1."
I'm just wondering if the church has informed the court of their decision to stop the hearing. I hope they do so before the 14th as I don't want to travel all the way to London only to hear them tell the Judge that they're stopping it.
Interested observer Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > One more comment. > "He's sent an email confirming that view as > official from my stakes leadership who apparently > have it on authority that this is going nowhere > and will be stopped by the church on day 1." > > I'm just wondering if the church has informed the > court of their decision to stop the hearing. I > hope they do so before the 14th as I don't want to > travel all the way to London only to hear them > tell the Judge that they're stopping it.
+1
That would not be very polite would it now.
She may find it mildly inconvenient and quite irksome.