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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 06:37PM

. . . the first time accompanied by a friend of mine who was a Holocaust survivor.

Nice attempt at trying to win the argument over the Kennedy headshot by dragging in the Jews.

It was incredibly distasteful on your part.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2011 06:39PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Shaba ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 07:23PM

Don't you know how much Cabbie looks up to you?

Why would you bad-mouth your #1 fan?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 08:56PM

Friends tell each other the truth, regardless.

Doing so can result in any of the following results:

--It highlights the honesty of the friendship.

--It strengthens the friendship.

--It undermines the friendship.

Depends on the state of the friendship.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 07:45PM

I would worry about people who didn't find it so... But is that reality my fault? The gift that teacher gave me was I won't forget what happened... I'm not sure I how I would've reacted to seeing the Holocaust Museum--I may well have been overwhelmed--but I'm not in denial about the monstrous evil that was perpetuated...

Which was why I ripped the innards out of the poster who came after me for my tribute to Simon Wisenthal (one of the truly ulra-remarkable individuals of the 20th Century, IMHO).

And the really priceless element to that gift came when I studied how the Nazi government was able to perpetuate those horrors...

Nazi propaganda and state media were huge elements in keeping much of the German population in the dark about that one, as well as much of the rest of the world... And before that, the news media was used to villify those who failed to "meet the German standard."

One reason I, an agnostic, hold the First Amendment and a free press so sacred...

Now are you mad at me, or the reality that it took you so long to genuinely internalize Nazi atrocities? Because I promise you, I was in 9th grade when good Ol' Mr. C. told us about how they herded people naked into the gas chambers, how the people lost control of their bodily functions in the horror, etc...

I also find the murder of our 35th president abominable, but in watching the recreations--and the actual footage--I knew intuitively that the drama llamas among the conspiracy theorists were chasing something nonexistent...

It's a horrible thought that a total piss ant of a human being such as Oswald could have so radically affected everyone's lives the way he did, but the evidence is particularly strong that's how it went down...

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 08:49PM

And Jews, quite frankly, are pretty damned tired of having their Holocaust regularly hijacked in the name of other agendas.

Maybe you should have just linked the board to that South Vietnamese general shooting a VC guerilla in the head. (Given its own graphic gore, however, I'll just provide the headline and not the actual link, since on occasion there can be actual taste demonstrated around these parts:

"Vietnamese General Shoots a Prisoner to Prove That He is Tough"



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2011 09:59PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 09:34PM

Gordion Knots have traditionally invited simple solutions...

Does that need to be translated properly?

Okay, yeah, I know he stole it from somebody who said it to him in his taxi in New York, but the lesson is there... And even labeling the conpiracy claims in this fashion is pretty simplistic...

Somebody owes an apology to the Greeks for stealing that one...

BTW, I'm 1/16 Jewish from a Danish ancestor who converted to Mormonism... What that would've meant to me if I'd lived in Germany during the first part of the 20th Century isn't lost on me... And what I saw in those grainy B&W films was the truth; there's no denying that one...

And in giving my little history lesson, I did try to give equal time to Stalin-era atrocities as well... More generally incomprehensible stuff that it's difficult for gentler folks to assimilate...

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 09:38PM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2011 09:41PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 11:01PM

This was the link I intended, but somehow the Mythbusters link wound up there instead (both were on the "dock" on my computer in separate web pages).

This is what I was commenting and elaborating upon, and it does, indeed, contain one bit of gruesome footage from the Zapruder film (a warning is appropriate on that one), but there is none of the "delay" Timothy spoke of...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVOhk63dEIQ

You can check the original thread, and then my discussion makes sense...

My apologies for the error and any confusion as a result...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2011 11:37PM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 01:31AM

. . . the importance of Connally's reaction to the shots fired during the JFK assassination, in the context of how that reaction serves to undermine, in both of our opinions, the basic premise of the Warren Commission's single-bullet conclusion.

Timothy used Connally's experience as a metaphor to comment on how some die-hard believers in Christianity will continue with the mainstream belief system of Christianity, even though its bedrock has been fundamentally compromised by hard facts.

I subsequently springboarded off of Timothy's use of the Connally metaphor to actually explain why--empirically and logically and evidentiarily--Connally's reactions to the shots fired in Dealey Plaza on 22 November 1963 do not line up (so to speak) either time-wise or physical reaction-wise with the single-bullet doctrine embraced by lone-gunman devotees..



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 01:47AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: T-Rex ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 02:19AM

If we can use the Zaprunder film to break down in frames the approximate time Connally was hit by a second bullet (i.e.: dis-helved hair, wince, et cetera) and we know where Connally was hit in the torso, then can an approximate angle of the second round be determined within at least a 45 degree range? Would this not contribute towards 1 v 2 shooters?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 06:49AM

Ron Hepler, "The Wounding of Governor John Connally":

"Identifying the Impact

"[Given the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) and the Warren Commission testimonial] statements [from John Connally and his wife Nellie Connally] concerning the impact of the bullet, it was immediately apparent that [the] forward motion [of Connally's body] would pinpoint the time of the impact within one frame of the Zapruder film, so I decided to look for that motion.

"At Frame 224, the time of the [Govenor's] lapel flap, there is no motion that matches the description give by the Governor.

"So I looked at Frame 236, the shoulder drop. Surely if the bullet drove his shoulder down, it would have driven him forward; but no.

"What about Frame 238, the puffing of the cheeks? Still no forward motion.

"Rather than accept that the Governor was not yet wounded, most researchers choose to ignore the statements of the two people most intimate with the event, the wounded man and his wife who was seated next to him at the time of the shooting.

"So, I continued to let [the Zapruder film] run in slow motion. During the headshot sequence, I thought I saw the Governor driven forward. I replayed the headshot sequence time after time at normal speed, in slow motion and in single-frame step mode, often covering the President with my hand so as to be able to focus completely on the Governor without my eyes being drawn to the headshot.

"That was it. The bullet obviously impacted him [Connally] under the armpit at Frame 315 as he attempted to raise himself from his wife's lap.

"The first evidence of motion is visible in Frame 316.

"He is driven forward and hits the back of the front seat at Frame 323.

"He immediately collapses just as Mrs. Connally had described in Frame 326.

"A second violent motion is noticeable at about Frame 338 when run at normal speed. This motion is most likely the impact of the wrist shot that then goes on to cause the thigh injury. . . .

"All indications are that the Governor was the victim of the last two shots of what was at least a four-shot volley aimed at the President's head.

"The first shot of this volley, at Frame 312, was apparently only a tangential hit, gently shoving the President's head forward and possibly denting the windshield frame of the limo.

"The second shot from the grassy knoll at Frame 313 was a solid impact, driving the President's head violently backward.

"With JFK's head deflected from its targeted location, the third shot sailed past at Frame 315 and into the Governor's back shattering his fifth rib, rupturing his right lung and exiting out of his chest.

"The last shot, fired at about Frame 338, impacts the Governor's wrist, shattering the radius bone with the remains coming to rest in his thigh. . . .

"Shots occurring almost simultaneously, such as at Frames 312, 313 and 315, would likely not be differentiated, but heard as a single shot and its echoes by witnesses, although some witnesses, including the Governor himself, apparently did hear as automatic weapons' fire.

"Whereas the late shot at Frame 338 would certainly be differentiated and heard as a separate shot, thereby matching the reports of the majority of ear-witnesses. Coordinating the fire into such volleys is a logical strategy to hide additional shots as echoes.

"Having determined that the Governor had been wounded immediately after the headshot to the President, what caused the lapel flap, shoulder drop and puffed cheeks?


"Nellie's Quick Reaction

"A close analysis of the Zapruder film will reveal that Nellie Connally was the first to react defensively, by turning and pressing her back against the left side of the car.

"In Frame 190 and the Willis Photo #5, taken at about the same time, Nellie is still facing forward indicating that she had not yet recognized the threat[.]

"[B]ut in Frame 240, she can be seen to be in this position with certainty. Her location as evidenced by her hair, which is essentially all that is visible, appears already fixed as early as Frame 225. Considering that she cannot be seen to make a turn after exiting from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, it is apparent that she had already assumed the position much earler. Her testimony to the HSCA indicates that she made the turn while hidden from the camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign: 'I just heard a disturbing noise and turned to my right from where I thought the noise had come and looked in the back and saw the President clutch his neck with both hands.'

"While the Secret Service agents appear thoroughly confused, Nellie has analyzed the threat and is galvanized into action to pull her husband from the line of fire and down into her lap. She testified to the Warren Commission, 'I just pulled him over into my arms;' and to the HSCA, ' . . . [T]he only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line of fire, or whatever was happening to us and I thought if I could get him down, maybe they wouldnt hurt him anymore. So, I pulled him down in my lap.' Nellie's left hand can be seen grasping the Governor's left arm to pull him into her lap at Frame 273.


"The Lapel Flap

"Gerald Posner, in his book, 'Case Closed,' wrongly described the fact that Governor Connaly's lapel flapped up at about Frame 224 as evidence of a bullet strike. For such a bullet to penetrate both men, as proposed in the Single Bullet Theory, the right-to-left trajectory through Connally would have to line up with JFK's neck and the weapon.

"At Frame 224, Connally is seated erect, relaxed with his torso facing forward. The trajectory of the bullet that entered under his right armpit and exited below his right nipple was measured by Dr. Robert Shaw, Governor Connally's attending physician, at an angle of 27 degrees relative to the forward- facing torso. If this trajectory were traced backwards at Frame 224, the bullet would have passed several feet to Kennedy's right.

"If the lapel flap is not the result of a bullet hit nor the result of wind, as some assume, the only logical cause of the lapel flap is Nellie pulling to the left on the back of her husband's suit coat in her attempt to ' . . . pull him down out of the line of fire.' Evidence of Mrs. Connally's effort so that the 'V' of his lapel is no longer centered, but is moved to the right beginning with Frame 223, then causing the lapel flap at Frame 224.

"The shoulder anchors the lapel at the top while the button anchors it at the bottom. A leftward tug on the back of the coat pulls all slack out of the fabric. As tension continues to increase, the middle of the lapel is able to move. This movement of the middle of the lapel fold causes the fold to flap open.


"The Shoulder Drop

"Governor Connally's shoulder can be seen to drop sharply at Frame 236, while his torso remains essentially stationary. This movement was reported as evidence of a bullet hit by Dr. Cyril Wecht in his testimony to the HSCA [I--Steve Benson, here--spoke with Wecht by phone during a radio talk show in Phoenix some years ago, when I called him to relate to him my personal conversation I had with Connally at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository in October 1992, where Connally emphatically told me that he was not struck by the same bullet that struck Kennedy].

"Governor Connally was not hit in the upper arm or the shoulder, either of which could have driven the shoulder down, but instead he was wounded under the armpit. In addition, the trajectory through the body of 25 degrees downward, as measured by Dr. Shaw, would have transferred the majority of its momentum in the forward direction instead of downward, as was noted by the Governor and his wife.

"This shoulder motion could only have been the result of a downward pull on his right arm or coat sleeve by his wife in her attempt to extricate him from the line of fire. Since his torso was turned to face the right side of the car at this point in time, his right arm was within Nellie's reach. The fact that his right arm is not visible throughout this event is further indication that it was behind his back. During this time he rotates further around to the right as a result of Nellie pulling on his right arm/coat sleeve.

"Note that he remains in the same shoulder-down orientation through Frame 261, over a second later. If he had been struck by a bullet the shoulder would have rebounded upward after ending its downward travel; instead, it is obviously being pulled down. Additional evidence of the pull on his right coat sleeve is that the collar and lapel of his coat are pulled toward his right shoulder.


"The Puffed Cheeks

"The puffing of Connally's cheeks, visible at Frame 238, is believed by many to be evidence of the compressive effects of a bullet or rib fragments penetrating the lung. At well over 1,000 feet per second, the bullet rips through the chest cavity and the lung, opening them so that no pressure is retained. The puffing of the cheeks would require a much slower building of pressure. This puffing of his cheeks may very well be due to abdominal muscular tensioning prior to his lung being ruptured. This is probably the result of being pulled off balance, backward, by his wife. Such abdominal muscular tensioning results in pressure upon the diaphragm. In most cases people hold their breath to add support to abdominal strain, thereby puffing their cheeks. The same condition occurs when exercising the abdominal muscles, such as with sit-ups.

"Both attempts of tugging at his coat and arm are consistent with Nellie's final success in getting him into her lap; so, too, is the puffing of his cheeks as he resisted the backward pull.

"Additional evidence that the Governor was not hit between Frames 220 and 240, is the fact that he does not exhibit the effects of the impact of a bullet. A high-velocity bullet that destroys five inches of his fifth rib, parts of which practically explode out of his chest, would cause severe pain. It was described to the Warren Commission by Dr. Shaw as ' . . . both a shocking and painful wound.' The pain would be evident as a grimace of agony on his face. It is NOT! [original emphasis] His facial expression is one of being startled and confused.

"Shortly thereafter, as he is falling into his wife's lap, he can be seen watching the President with interest, an activity that he later denies. This obvious concern for the well-being of another, visible in Frame 273, is not the action of a severely wounded man.


"Trajectory of the Back Wound

"Importantly, while raising himself and turning left, his torso was leaned over toward Nellie from the seat that he originally occupied. This left-leaning angle of the torso, relative to the normal vertical posture, rotates the bullet's apparent trajectory clockwise. With this rotation, the downward angle of the shot gives the erroneous appearance of a more right-to-left trajectory through the body, which of course is exactly what we see with his wounds.

"A photo of the limousine taken at Parkland Hospital has evidence of the emergence of this bullet. There is a severe dent in the lower left corner of the chrome panel surrounding the ashtray in the back of the front seat. This final impact before falling to the floor of the car, would be consistent with the trajectory described earlier, as well as bullet fragments retrieved from the vehicle.


"The Governor Cries Out

"According to the Warren Commission Report, 'Observing his blood-covered chest as he was pulled into his wife's lap, Governor Connally believed himself mortally wounded. He cried out, "Oh, no, no, no. My God, they are going to kill us all."'

"It is quite evident on the Zapruder film that he was NOT [original emphasis] yet covered with blood when he was pulled into Nellie's lap, as is obvious in Frame 273; and this sequence of events is not supported by Connally's testimony to the HSCA, as noted earlier. But, he does appear to be mouthing these words during this period.

"While it makes perfect sense for him to make such an exclamation after hearing the first shot and prior to being wounded himself, it is ludicrous to expect this of a man who had 'a sucking wound of the chest.' This description of his chest wound and ruptured lung was given to the Warren Commission by Dr. Shaw as, ' . . . [H]e had what we call a sucking wound of the chest. This would not allow him to breathe.' The 'sucking wound of the chest' allows air to be inhaled and exhaled via the wound, rather than through the windpipe or larynx. This inability to breathe would essentially eliminate any significant amount of air across the larynix, precluding his crying out.

"Nellie supports the timing issue with her testimony to the Warren Commission: ' . . . As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John . . . ." She reinforced the timing with her statement to the HSCA: ' . . . John had turned to his right also when we heard that first noise and shouted, "No, no, no," and in the process of turning back around so that he could look back and see the President--I don't think he could see him when he turned to his right--the second shot was fired and hit him.'

"The Governor's statement to the HSCA indicates that he was having trouble keeping is story straight, 'When I was hit, or shortly before I was hit--no, I guess it was after I was hit--I said first, just almost in despair, I said, "No, no, no, . . . .' This Freudian slip indicates that he actually made the statement before he was wounded, but that did not fit the official story and had to be altered.


"The Last Shot

"The last shot, apparently a belated final round of the four-shot volley, struck Connally in the wrist and thigh at about Frame 338 as he lay across the car. He can be seen to make a violent movement immediately after Frame 338, which is evidence of the bullet's impact. Timing for this shot is supported by data developed during the acoustic analysis of the Dallas Police radio tape, as well as data on the camera motion analysis of the Zapruder film by W.K. Hartman, and Frank Scott separately for the HSCA. This bullet's trajectory, if extended back through the approximate location of JFK's head, would most likely originate from the roof of the Dallas County Records Building, where a spent 30.06 cartridge was found in 1975 by an air-conditioner repairman.


"Summary

"Contrary to popular belief, Governor Connally does not appear to have been wounded until AFTER [original emphasis] the fatal headshot to the President. Several strange occurences--such as the lapel flap, the shoulder drop and the puffed cheeks--that have been ascribed to be the result of bullet hits, actually were due to Nellie's continued and eventually successful efforts to pull her husband down into her lap and out of the line of fire.

"The key to determining the actual timing of the Governor's wounding is the transfer of the bullet's momentum to the torso as it impacts the rib bone. This momentum transfer is visible immediately after the headshot to the President.

"Both bullets that wounded the Governor were part of a final volley that probably included four shots in a little over one second."

(Ron Hepler, "The Wounding of Govenor John Connally," in James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., ed,, "Assassination Science" [Chicago: Catfeet Press, 1998], pp. 240-47)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 07:23AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 03:19AM

>sub: That little "delay" in Dealey never has sat well with me, Steve.

First Paragraph:

>In the Zapruder film when the limo emerges from behind the sign, we see Kennedy already clutching at his throat while Connally is turning toward the president BEFORE reacting to a gunshot wound. The film more-than-obviously confirms Connally's recollections but is inconsistent with the magic-bullet theory (first proposed by Arlen Specter, btw). As it turns out, the Commission didn't totally dismiss the Texas Governor's testimony. It just ignored his testimony.

In the video I linked (correctly this time, and again my apologies), with the framed version number, Connally is shown turning to his right by Frame 167...Then the limo disappears behind the sign and Connally reappears first at Frame 222... By 223-224, it's obvious something has happened to both men, as Dale Myers' narration points out...

Kennedy does not appear to be "hit" by the time the limo disappears behind the sign, but the telltale clutching of his throat occurs at 223-24, coincident, as I said, with the distortion in Connally's jacket created by the bullet exiting (perhaps tumbling by now as it took out a portion of his chest with it).

A plausible interpretation of the Warren Commision's analysis is not that they "ignored his testimony," but that it was contradicted by undeniable photographic evidence, and Connally may not have realized he was also struck. I further believe some conspiracy theorists wind up distorting that evidence and contaminating perceptions with their talking points.

Much hay has been made of the President's reaction to first being shot, which is why I brought up the Jew--ah, screw that one, the Commie-execution shots (I can deal with the Glenn Beck/Bircher crowd on another day; I don't think they'll be sucking up to me anytime soon, anyway), that I witnessed in history films in the 1960's...

I found an undeniable similarity, and my analysis was not one of judgment, but rather a reaction to a triggering event...

I'll stand on my reporting on that one, and while I solicited a physicist to explain--or reject--my presentation on the subject of inertia, I haven't heard back yet. I did find the following, however, from a physics guy with pretty good credentials... A Nobel prize being among them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Walter_Alvarez

>In November 1966, Life Magazine published a series of photographs from the famous film that Abraham Zapruder took of the Kennedy assassination. Alvarez, an expert in optics and photoanalysis, became intrigued by the pictures and began to delve deeply into what could be learned from the film. The result of this was that Alvarez proved conclusively both in theory and experiment that the backward snap of the President’s head was completely consistent with his being shot from behind, which would have been the case if Lee Harvey Oswald were the assassin. He also investigated the timing of the gun shots and the shockwave which disturbed the camera, the speed of the camera, and pointed out a number of things which the FBI photoanalysts either overlooked or got wrong. While the results were not of enormous importance (the paper was intended as a tutorial), the pedagogical aspect of the paper, as well as its informal advice for the physicist intent on arriving at the truth is compelling.

To borrow a phrase of Big Tim's (since I've noticed a few of my own "rhetorical turns" in his posts), it "beats the sh*t out of me" why anyone would want to use an imprecise--and extremely controversial--metaphor for a philosophical end or debating point.

Well, as demonstrated, it does provide fodder for some drama cannons... In the case of die-hard fundamentalist Christianity, there are much easier ways to make them look ridiculous...

And T-Rex, if you'll look at the video I linked here, and the Peter Jennings' one on the original thread (available for less than $20 with shipping), you too can sleep peacefully at night knowing JFK's real killer died on Nov. 24, 1963... And Dale Myers does exactly as you proposed, arriving at a "single bullet fact" conclusion (which was his before it was ever "mine").

Conspiracy and second gunman believers are as troubled by that one as Creationists are by claims by scientists that evolution is a fact as well...

And now I am done with this subject...

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 04:48AM

You gonna start comparing informed skeptics of the Warren Commission to creationists, pal, and the gloves come off.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:59AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 05:02AM

Per the contents of the Zapruder film:

"After Kennedy has been hit, there is no blood on Connally's cuff from the magic bullet wrist wound, and he continues to grip his Stetson hat. Such massive damage would have caused blood to spurt immediately, and it seems that for the single bullet theory to work, blood would have been seen quickly after JFK is wounded. And, of course, if his major wrist nerves were severed, he could not have continued to hold his hat."

(Jack White, "20 years of Thoughts About the Authenticity of the Zapruder Film," in James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., "Assassination Science" (Chicago: Catfeet Press, 19980, p. 214)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 07:31AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 08:49AM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 09:03AM by Timothy.

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Posted by: Helmar Metz ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 07:58PM


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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 08:00PM


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Posted by: matt ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 09:04PM

Helmar Metz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

I have several comments ready to go, but will, and this sounds unlikely, I know, restrain myself.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 09:46PM


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Posted by: loveskids ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 12:47AM

Actually,it was closer to 12 million murdered.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 01:36AM


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Posted by: RichardtheBad (not logged in) ( )
Date: February 28, 2011 09:01PM


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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 01, 2011 04:20AM

Secrets that are supposed to be very secret do not stay secret for long--here is an example. At the Potsdam Conference in 1945, Presdent Truman informed Churchill and Stalin of the atomic bomb after the successful Trinity test on 16 July. Churchill was in on the project from the start; Stalin was not. Churchill was elated at the news but Stalin didn't react at all. Truman did not know that Stalin had been informed before he was. There were at least three spies at Los Alamos--Klaus Fuchs, David Greemglass, and one other they still are not sure of. The Russians had access to all the key details of both the uranium and plutonium weapons but decided to postpone devopment after the end of the war when more resources would be available. It has been over sixty years since and that was supposed to be the greatest secret ever kept and we know what happened. It's the same thing with the the Roswell Incident. If some secret cabal or group or government conspired to kill JFK we would know about it by now.

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