So Jesus establishes his Church which immediately falls into apostasy and loses all authority.
Satan's Church, however, is established shortly thereafter and is still going strong such that members of Satan's Church outnumber members of Jesus's Church 100 to 1.
So the question is, which of these Gods seems more powerful to you? The one whose church petered out (no pun intended) or the one whose church is still going strong.
We are told that Satan will lose in the end and that the Elohim-Jesus team will win. But who tells us this? It is the Elohim-Jesus team that TBMs get all their information about Satan from!
Now does that make sense? There are two eternal, powerful God teams, one headed by Elohim & Jesus and the other headed by Satan. If we look with our own eyes, the Elohim-Jesus team is still in the locker room and the Satan team is scoring touchdown after touchdown. But who will win the game? The TBMs say, "clearly the Elohim-Jesus team will win."
To which I ask them, "how do you know this? You, as a limited mortal, are in no position to be able to handicap this apocalyptic struggle. So where are you getting your information from?"
The TBM might cite the scriptures, or a testimony that God gave him. But these come from only one side of an adversarial situation. If you wanted to know about Fords would you ask only a Chevy dealer?? If you wanted to know about Fords wouldn't you AT LEAST consult with a Ford dealer?
So why haven't you prayed to Satan? Because God told you not to? Gee, why would God want you to restrict your source of information to only HIS side of things? Why is He afraid of you finding out what the other side has to offer?
So, to all TBMs, I say, you have limited yourself in such a way that your knowledge is not reliable. Until and unless you pray to Satan with at least one fraction of the fervor and faith that you prayed to God, then your experience is too limited for me to take seriously.
If you really want to find out, pray to Satan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 03:49PM by baura.
According to Alma 32, if you fail to gain a testimony of Mormonism, you need to follow all of the rules and teachings of Mormonism. You have to want it to be true. You have to act as if it were true.
Now, if we want to try your experiment, to find out if Team Elohim-Jesus has been feeding us one sided information, surely (according to LDS epistemology) we'd have to want Team Satan's version of things to be true, and act as if it were true until we have a testimony of it. Otherwise, we'd never find out if Mormonisms version of things is lying by omission.
Yes, you'd have to investigate Satan's side of things with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Satan, and not just some insincere, perfunctory prayer.
Aren't we missing something? In the temple Satan tells us that his apron represents his power and priesthood (or some such), and then we get our aprons. He's a slick sucker, huh?
But that's the Elohim-Jesus' team's version of Satan. It's a Ford dealer telling you about Chevys. You can't trust what you receive in the temple until you've checked it out thoroughly with the other side--Satan.
Your example will not work. Why would anyone of sound mind pray to a non existing god or a non existing satan? There is no god and there is no satan! Why spend any time and effort on praying to a lie?
Praying to a figment cannot work because a figment is not real.
or, was the church of Joseph Smith really started through the help of a salamander/grey alien/demon/jinn? Then covered up with letter bombs and mk-ultra? who knows.
Fascinating. Such reason and logic! That is a sign Satan has you in his grips. Lucky you.
The one thing that shocked me when I went to the temple was the whole Satan has priesthood and gets the best apron thing. He seemed more level headed and had a better handle on things than the others. It was confusing. Even the all knowing God is asking Satan what's going on.
And who really champions goodness? Heavenly Father or Lucifer? As far as I know, down through the ages no one has ever fought a war on Satan's behalf, but they can't seem to stop killing for Jesus and Elohim or any of the other Gods.
blueorchid Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > He seemed more level headed > and had a better handle on things than the others.
So true. He gave me some of the best advice I've ever heard. "You can buy anything in this world for money."
My first time through the temple was August of 2008. I remember thinking, when Satan makes that comment about money, "There are only TWO people on the face of the earth! How can he be talking about money? It doesn't exist!" (Satan looks threatening into the camera.). Yeah, you can buy anything with money; shopping malls, cattle ranches, good PR, control the information, etc etc.
Great post! I think I'll try it ;) At least it is a very good counter argument to TBM nonsense. So, if I use logic and use my own noggin, and it doesn't lead me to conclude the Mormon church is true, I'm in the grip of Satan, according to Mormons. I think I might answer, "Well, at least Satan is an advocate for logic and reason!" Too bad God and his followers aren't as amenable to it.
Um, wow. I didn't know we had any Satanists among us. This is truly a diverse group. Can you tell me how it is that you know Satan is in reality there for you? Do you have any physical proof? I hear he's better provided physical proof than the Christian God. Did you sell your soul so you could play your guitar better? Let me know. I'd would be all in if he'd make me a rock super star tomorrow.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 05:51PM by london.
If you read the Bible you'll see that Satan is really the good guy. God is the one who sends plagues, a global flood and other various horrors, along with exhorting his people to enslave and/or kill unbelievers and rape their daughters.
The only time Satan does anything dubious is when he helps God torment God's most loyal servant, Job, because God wants to show everyone who's boss.
Thats it. I love the way you put that. We were told from birth that God in the Bible is the good one but the truth is right there in black and white. It's always god causing the carnage. I think Lucifer is just watching Elohim do himself in. Easiest battle ever.
Meanwhile most of the things the devil wants us to do make us feel good. God say to grovel, Lucifer says to have orgasms.
Religion says Satan wants to enslave us. No, he wants us to be our own bosses. God is the slave master. "Worship me! Obey me! Or I'll torture you forever!"
When I was in middle school I tried to summon Satan, Beelzebub, Asmodeus, and several other demons of darkness. I even read out the lines from Faust at midnight on Friday the Thirteenth to try and summon Mephistopheles. Needless to say neither Mr. Scratch or God Almighty showed up when asked to present themselves. Religion is made up make-believe nonsense.
If Satan can get into our heads, give us ideas, stir up our emotions, make bad things seem like good ideas, then how do Mormons know their testimonies don't come from the devil?
"Well, because the scriptures say..." But how do they know the people who wrote the scriptures weren't actually receiving inspiration from Lucifer?
"Because there are beautiful, uplifting truths in the scriptures." But don't they say the devil will tell you 99 true things in order to slip in one critical lie?
"But... but, we have living prophets to lead us, to tell us what's true." How do you know they aren't being misled by the devil?
"Because the Still Small Voice tells me they're speaking the truth." How do you know that voice isn't the devil?
I told Satan once that I was willing to break my temple chastity covenants if he would deliver the hot babe temptation. He didn't come through. Too bad for him; he really could have had me there.
Despicable be thy name. Your kingdom falleth and your will be done only when God allows it. Take from us this day, our daily bread and help multiply our debts as we seek revenge with our debtors. Lead us always into temptation and deliver us unto evil.
If you're interested we'll gladly send a couple of missionaries over to teach you the REAL true order of prayer. They'll also give you, free of charge, a copy of THE SATANIC BIBLE.
They'll also invite you to church where I'm sure you'll enjoy the Sacrament Buffet.