Imagine you're a Mormon apostle. You're 83. You're growing incontinent, you're tired a lot of the time, you're on a few different medications, your back hurts...

And yet, your entire life is scheduled for you. You're still going 50 or 60 hours a week. Your life consists of traveling from one stake to another, saying the same kind of stuff to the same kind of people, and endless rounds of boring meetings - about building plans, corporate mergers, growing attrition rates, shopping malls, etc. Meanwhile, non-Mormon acquaintances are sunning themselves in Hawaii, lawn bowling, and hanging out with their grandchildren.

It has to get to you sometimes.

And now imagine that all it would take was a vote for you, and your other tired, elderly apostle friends, to be able to enjoy the last few years of your life in material comfort, and perhaps acquainting yourselves with the relatives you've largely ignored for the past fifty years while you were on the church treadmill. Add to that the fact that the church membership numbers don't look all that good...and morale has started to sink - almost imperceptibly, but sink - so that, in the back of your mind, you wonder just how much good you've done, or are doing; for, despite all your best efforts, the church doesn't seem to be overtaking the earth the way you thought it would when you were 22. In fact, it's losing members like never before. That's got to be deflating.

With all that in mind, I have to wonder about LDS apostles adopting some sort of new emeritus system for themselves. It would kind of be like politicians voting themselves a raise. As long as the system kept them financially in good shape, and provided each guy named to the Quorum with an equal shot at becoming church president one day, why wouldn't they all vote in favour of it? If proposed in the right way, I think they might.

One guy I know is close to someone who sees Monson quite a bit. The report is that Monson gives every impression of someone just waiting to die - no lust for life anymore, tired, just wants to watch Utah Jazz games and then fall over - soon. How many other high-ranking church leaders feel the same way, deep down? How many are saying, "I've done my best by the church, Lord - now let me go", but are still around...year, after year, after year?

I wouldn't be surprised if the LDS church one day (and maybe one day soon) sets a mandatory retirement age for GA's - maybe 65, or 72 or something - not only for their own interests, but maybe out of a notion that the church would be better run by men at the peak of their administrative powers - not guys battling dementia.

Just a thought.

Because the only way they have a shot at the big chair and ownership of ChurchCo is to stay in the job.

I really believe it's just a matter of time. It would benefit the church. Perhaps they'll baby-step this by taking the apostles down to say 80. With the general geriatricifation (made that word up) of society, they'll adapt like everything else. They are an organism that does what it takes to survive... eventually.

Monson wanting to die is understandable. If I had to watch basketball death would be welcome.

Hard for the Cult to continue the pretense that the Geezers are magic if they're going to put them out to pasture.

"I've done my best by the church, Lord - now let me go", but are still around...year, after year, after year?"

I got this same impression; that president hinckley was thinking the same thing the last time he spoke in conference before he died.

Maybe once they would have considered it but since Pope Benedict beat them to it I think they'd rather drool and fill their Depends than give the impression that they are following the Catholics lead.

Good News.

Check the history and you'll find numerous instances where there many more than 12-15 Apostles.

President McKay was reported to have five counselors at one time, and many apostles in history were not members of the Quorum of the Twelve. Many were nepotimistic appointments or legacy appointments for the work of early high church leaders.

You may also recall the era when there was a quasi second quorom of Apostles called Assistantw to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, commonly shortened to Assistant to the Twelve or Assistant to the Twelve Apostles. It was kind of 'try out for the big seats' and was a priesthood calling in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints between 1941 and 1976.

As the title of the calling suggests, men who held this position assisted the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in fulfilling their priesthood responsibilities. Assistants to the Twelve were general authorities, and were generally assigned by the Twelve Apostles to preside over and speak at stake conferences; re-organize stakes; tour missions; and assist in the direction of worldwide missionary work.

Might be a different organization if the senior leadership had more zip in their step and a better handle on what is really going on in world away from "Happy Valley."

Apostleship is a life calling. And there can only be 12 (or 15) special witnesses of christ. How would the church explain 30 special witnesses? 12 active and 18 retired?

It would also help to cycle in a more in-tune generation faster for reforms.

You don't get to be an apostle by being in tune. You get it by closely mirroring the existing apostles, including their attitudes and world view (or world myopia).

"Apostleship is a life calling. And there can only be 12 (or 15) special witnesses of christ. How would the church explain 30 special witnesses? 12 active and 18 retired?"

They could say the "special witness" label only applies to active members of the quorum of twelve and FP. It would be a big policy change but they could be released from the quorum of twelve calling like bishops are released from presiding over a ward but are still called Bishop.

Are you sure these guys actually WORK 50-60 hours per week?

I don't believe it.

And just bc their handlers SAY they're working 50-60 hours per week, doesn't mean it's true.

85+ and a 50-60 hpw job would put them in an early grave in no time. And these guys hang on. And on. And on. And on...

onlinemoniker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you sure these guys actually WORK 50-60 hours
> per week?
>
> I don't believe it.

Exactly. They do whatever they want. Who's going to call them on it? The bureaucracy runs itself.

And as for sunning in Hawaii: they do that, in their own 100 million dollar resort.

Moreover, outside Utah and the US, some very neat holiday destinations have a Mormon temple these days. You could go to a Mission Presidents' conference in Rome or a Temple Presidents' leadership meeting in South Africa.

Whenever I see these geezers around here, they're doing one or two meetings and a week of sight-seeing. All expenses paid, no doubt.

So what if your back aches or you are incontinent - free medical & dental for life.

The rest of the old geezers still want their chance at the brass ring. As long as there's breath they'll never vote to banish their chance. My TBM DH suffers from a bunch of health problems including moderate dementia. If they called him back to ward leadership today he'd be there in the morning. Oh, the glory, the power, the honor, etc.

Hugh B. Brown proposed emeritus for Q12 many years ago. Shot down by the more traditional in the quorum. They did opt for the Q70 being granted emeritus at 70.

Just me, but I can't think of a more tedious existence. Meetings in SLC and flying around the world to sit in more meetings.

The 15 may be adulation craving, totem pole climbing, grasping achievers clawing their way to the top.

But I suspect at 80-something years old there is at least one who sits there putting time into his calling to keep his spouse happy, watching the clock waiting for time to go home.

Just like the rest of us.

That's yet another good idea you've got going, Tal.

Why don't you market some of this stuff to the Top 15 guys in Salt Lake? You'd probably need a TBM partner to make it legit, but why not call yourself a strategic management, or public affairs, or media relations consultant?

Research this stuff, offer charts and graphs, innovative theories, marketable explanations, and then go for it!

How do we know they're not just holograms right now?

I agree it would be exhausting. Still if you notice it takes a certain personality type to ever become an apostle. These are men with above average endurance for activities, corporate type life and meetings. And they are also surprisingly healthy very late into their lives. In other words, they are most likely extroverts who are more energized and do better physically and mentally with lots of people around. Introverts who are drained by meeting too many people would never rise to apostle.

I've always been amazed that almost all apostles who have not died of an acute illness are still mobile and self reliant at age 80-90 given that the average 80 year old American is not active to the same degree. Just flying around the world itself is physically exhausting in old age, (it's exhausting to me in my 40s), but these guys do it all the time.

It's quite an accomplishment to be actively working well into their 80s and even 90s. So they really reached thier position because of a lifetime developing the endurance and probably having the physical and mental traits where they thrive on the lifestyle that seems so exhausting to others.

President Monson as an example has had diabetes for many, many years. Diabetes debilitates most elderly people through heart disease, uncontrollable blood sugar drops and surges, special dietary needs and stress that contributes to losing control of glucose levels. Travel and jet lag is really hard on diabetics. For him as an elderly diabetic to have taken on the stress of being president of the church, working and traveling in his 80s is really exceptional. And the fact there are 15 of these guys all seeming to do the same thing with none dropping dead of stress or going to live in assisted living until they're 100 is pretty remarkable. It would be depressing to me.

I'm not saying they have any special calling from God, I'm just saying that there's a natural selectiong going on to be an apostle--selected from physical and personality types that thrive rather than get depleted by that lifestyle.

I have a relative in his 80's who just lives for "spiritual" events, especially in his family. He was released as a patriarch, but recently got permission to give a patriarchal blessing to a 14-year-old great-granddaughter. He was released as a temple sealer, but got permission for the upcoming sealing of a grandson.

Emeritus apostles would still have opportunities to do stuff that makes them feel important. It's just that the travel and workload would be less of a burden.

Tal's post makes a lot of sense. I mean, what organization takes its absolute oldest executives and keeps them in power, even when they are octogenarians and not up to the job anymore?

As I think things through, my guess is that most of the Q12 probably work only about 10 - 15 hours a week. All Church work at that level is done by committee -- that is what the various quorums of 70 are for. The old guys still like the praise and adulation, no doubt, but are too feeble to do real work.

I think some type of Emeritus program could be worked out without much trouble. Alvin Dyer was ordained an Apostle, and served in the First Presidency without ever even being a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. His situation was rather unique, but it's not like they have strict job classifications. If one of the Twelve ends up holding no assignments, can't be at General COnference for health reasons and isn't seen much and is Defacto retired it's not like anybody can really say anything about it.

In the Catholic church not only to you have a recently retired Pope, you also have a rule which essentially give emeritus status to cardinals who reach, I think, 70. They no longer have a say in picking a new pope.

The original twelve apostles are symbolic. The number of "special witnesses" has no inherent upper or lower limit.

BTW, note the interesting fact that Daniel H. Wells was an apostle and second counselor to BY for twenty years but was NOT allowed in the Q12 after BY died. Not even emeritus status.

They love the fame and having people treat them like Gods. They will never retire.

They could still bask in that glory if their names and photos still appeared in The Ensigh, and they still made the odd appearance, and still did the odd General Conference talk. They could just move into a new designation - "Special Advisors". Something like that.

I'm not recommending it; I couldn't care less what they choose to do. I'm only saying I think they might go for it if someone made the case for it from within.

An article discussing this topic was linked on Already Gone's post: Uchdorf - too charismatic for his own good?

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1346531

The author touched on several issues that I thought would contribute to the discussion here.

Church Leadership and the Dilemma of Dementia

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2014/08/church-leadership-and-the-dilemma-of-dementia



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2014 06:55PM by lovetta.

Back in the early 80s there was a mass release of certain general authorities that were placed in emeritus status, including a prophet seer and revelator, the Patriarch to the the Church, Father Eldred G. Smith.

Father Smith outlived Kimball and the others that deposed him reaching the amazing age of 106. Monson actually brought him back unofficially and included him in the weekly temple meetings.

I remember for seveal years the emeritus folks were still pictured in a separate section of the yearly poster of general authorities.

Why not? One of the reforms made by Pope Paul VI was to mandate that all Catholic bishops had to submit their resignations at age 75. (Of course, they can still continue to keep working should the Pope not choose to accept it.) However, the absolute cutoff seems to be age 80. By that point, the cardinals automatically lose their right to vote in the conclave to elect a new Pope.

Other churches have similar provisions. If I'm not mistaken, all Episcopal Church bishops must retire at age 72. However, many retire earlier.

Of course, all of these groups are apostate and not true, so the Brethren don't need to consider anything they do. ;-)