long-time regular viewer, occasional poster here, just being anon to avoid the very slight risk of identifying the characters in this post:

I have a 5 year old son about to enter kindergarten who has been in the same daycare/pre-school since he was 10 weeks old. Another boy has been there just as long, but hasn't gone during this summer. His mom called me a couple months back asking to arrange for the two to play together since her son missed his friends. The boys attended each other's birthday parties, and I have known the parents (though not really well) for a few years, and had no substantial concerns with it, except to make sure he was safe form guns or dogs, both present at the house. With those concerns alleviated, it was a go-ahead. My son went there at times to play and swim, and on some evenings including dinner. He has probably spent a combined 15 hours of time at the boy's house over the last several weeks. I knew this family was Catholic, but having been raised Catholic myself (not religious now) and expecting that their observance of it was fairly casual and to themselves, I didn't expect anyone's beliefs to be a divisive factor among 5-year-old boys.

Well, that's all over now. I received a message from the mom telling me first that my son has had trouble following rules and directions at their house, and that he sometimes ignores her son. That doesn't surprise me - he's not the greatest at those things at home either. I have no problem that she told me that, though without knowing exactly what rules she was referring to, I'm not going to pass harsh judgment on my son. He could always use some re-inforcement about respect and listening to others, so we'll work on that when I can see it.

What floored me was the next paragraph in her message:

"...Unfortuantely this last Monday <her son> was talking to <my son> about Jesus and <my son> became upset and went to <her adult daughter watching the kids> and said '<her son> is talking about Jesus and I don't want to hear it. Tell him to stop.'. My daughter was quite upset as was I when she called me and asked me what to do. I spoke to <her son> over the phone and told him to play something else and we would talk when I got home. <her son> was very upset."

next paragraph in message:

"I always teach my children to stand up for what they believe. Yet I also teach them to be respectful in someone elses home. Well this is there [sic] home and I will not stiffel [sic] them. They love the Lord and praise him. I have done a lot of searching for an answer and at this time I feel it is in my family's best interest to end the playdates."

I think now I know one reason why my son was ignoring her son. Had I known I was sending him to church, I would have put an end to it sooner. I'm looking forward to talking about the experience with my son. Yes, I'm sure there is some truth to him being averse to the rules of their house, but I'm also glad he spoke up for himself, even if the other adult there wasn't sympathetic to his view. I'm sorry for him that he had to lose a friend over this.

I'm sorry it didn't work out. In the future you might want to have your son's friends over to your house an equal amount of the time. That way you can observe his interactions with other kids and make corrections as needed.

I would respond something like this, "Dear [Name,] Thank you for hosting my son at your home so many times. I'm sorry to hear that he was not following your directions. Please accept my apology. I will work on that with him."

I think they blew your son's comments about Jesus out of proportion. But as someone raised in the Catholic church, you know as well as I do that "Jesus" talk among young Catholic children is not all that common. I have to wonder if it was just an isolated incident or something more.

"ok. You need to do what you believe is best for your family. Best wishes to <her son> at his new school."

I considered apologizing for my son's failure to follow house rules, but decided not to without being more informed about what they were. For all I know, maybe he refused to pray the Rosary.

We had offered to have the son over to our house, and I thought we would be doing that soon, but of course not now. The initial imbalance in location was due to their ownership of a nice playground set and pool, and their eagerness to have our son over at dinner. The boys were also great entertainemt to their 3-year old girl.

Their religious ideas usually mirror what their parents believe. When they first go to school or playgroups, they're hit with conflicting points of view and need help to understand that this is part of life and they need to adjust if they're to make peace in social situations.

Learning to take turns with conversation topics and activities is part of the growing process. Learning self control and not demanding all of the turns is why we send them to school and playgroups to practice socialization.

Someone needs to talk to these kids and work it out:

Joe, you like to talk about Jesus and Dan doesn't. Which of you boys can come up with a subject you both like? Cartoons? Leggos? Drawing and coloring? Favorite board games?

Here is my guess: something about your son's personality and behavior is sticking in the other mom's craw. She doesn't like him for some reason. Her account is probably not even close to the actual truth of the events.
He is probably a little too independent with an ability to speak his mind.
What ever the "Jesus talk" was about,is probably a secondary issue.

I'd just drop it. Not pursue it anymore, and leave it alone.
It's the other mom's decision, it's about her, not the kids. No discussion with her is necessary.

At another time, ask you son about the other mom. He'll probably start talking and give you information you don't currently have. He probably didn't like being there.

There are clearly different parenting styles and your son likely concluded that there was something unfair about the other mom.

I don't know anything, for sure about this situation. I'm drawing from past experiences....

And yes, have the kids to your house and get to know how they interact first, in the future.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2014 01:07PM by SusieQ#1.

The boys will be going to different schools and are unlikely to have future interaction that isn't rare and coincidental. So as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing more to say to her.

I do agree that there are probably things about my son that she doesn't like irrespective of religious beliefs, and the if she couldn't control him like she does her own children, then she was likely not pleased with that.

I still think, however, that the things I quoted from her message about the Jesus talk were a big factor. That's the only incident she mentioned in any significant detail. She could have easily just told me that my son didn't want to talk about something with her son. She specifically told me it was about Jesus and that her family loves and praises him, and that suggests strongly to me that it was a big deal. She could have been more specific about other rules or instructions he didn't follow, but didn't. Perhaps she wanted to (and did) avoid criticizing our parenting style or offending us in some other way, but her emphasis on the Jesus event seemed genuine on that point.

Your son has as much right to stand up for his convictions as her son.
If he doesn't want to hear "Jesus talk" then he should not be forced to.

She seems quite confrontational about religion, so you might want to tell her that you had no idea a religious freak show was going on at her house. LOL.
But that's just me.

Freak show indeed.

I wouldn't want to listen to that either. The kids would have worked it out if the neurotic freaks had let them be.

Good golly - you have a real life religious zealot. Not all 5 year olds want to talk about only one cartoon character all the time. Sometimes they may want to talk about teenage mutant ninja turtles or gi joe but mostly they want to talk about themselves.

If it were still ongoing, I'd be tempted to teach my little guy, when someone talked too much about Jesus, to say something like, "Enough of this 'Jesus' talk. Let me tell you about Allah." It would be fun to freak them out.

I'm not surprised the non-RC son was upset. I've heard from young Catholic kids about how we all, including themselves, took part in killing Jesus, that all of humanity bears responsibility for his death. No joke. For someone who has not been taught the scary, creepy dogma of Christianity, the blood sacrifice and the supposed beauty of it, any normal person should find it upsetting to hear about.

Many Christians have a nasty habit of wanting their beliefs afforded unquestioning respect and license, but do not want to give other beliefs or lack thereof the same due, as exemplified in the OP's post of the other family's reactions.

It's too bad her son had to deal with this at such a young age. It must have been upsetting for him. He needs a kind ear turned his way. OP needs to hear his take on this. I'll bet she'll hear a different version. Ask specifically what he found so upsetting, then try to comfort him. Poor little boy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2014 03:56PM by serena.

I talked to my son a bit this afternoon after picking him up from pre-school.

He couldn't remember exactly what his friend said about Jesus, but that his friend just wouldn't stop and after a few minutes of it he got really bored, but his friend still wouldn't stop. He said he got so bored he had to tell the sister to make him stop talking about Jesus. At least that's the way he described it to me. So if true, I'm not worried about any disturbing messages he may have heard - it was the boredom from which he was seeking relief. I'll probably never know what his friend told him, but it sounds like most of what my son perceived was 'Jesus blah blah blah' over and over again.

That claim sounds like a smoke screen. Possible, but doubtful.

I find a lot of religious types to be as obnoxious as their gods.

I agree w/ susieq#1.

Serena--I was raised Catholic and I had no experience of discussing blood sacrifice and "we're all responsible for Jesus' death" as a child.

I also agree that there is no need to address this issue with your child.

The mother's email was way over the line. She didn't need to address the situation at all if she wanted to end the play dates. Just don't schedule another one lady.

Sounds like she wanted to lecture you.

I heard a lot from my best friend growing up, gruesome stories told her class by the Nun teachers, because it was her as a Catholic to convert me. Didn't work, and she's no longer Catholic. My SIL's two kids are being raised Catholic, and I've heard some pretty hair raising stuff from them also, as well as from a 4 year old I knew who told me precisely that everyone on earth, past and present, bears responsibility for Jesus' death. I questioned the child's mother about this, and gee, she got quite defensive. Of course this family had a painting reproduction hanging in plain sight of a Renaissance type Jesus holding his chest open, breaking a very gory looking heart. When kids are raised with this as normal, they'll learn to accept all kinds of weird stuff. Gore and suffering = good. Sexual pleasure = bad.

But since you claim not to have experienced any of this, or that this is actually not taught as Catholic dogma (it is), then I must, ipso facto, be mistaken. Mea maxima culpa.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2014 04:27PM by serena.

I knew some people like what serena describes. Even as a fellow Catholic, I found them disturbing.

A high majority, however, were not like that and would never have entered any type of doctrinal discussion unless asked. And even if so, probably wouldn't have spoken as creepily as the minority that serena and I were exposed to.

I imagine Serena's observations could be more or less prevalent depending on where one lives, but there certainly are types out there like she described.

I'm not inclined to think that my son's friend was being any more than just boring to my son, but given the mild lunacy of his mother's e-mail, who knows.

The fanatics and preachers I have found to be in the minority. I'm certain there are quite a few acquaintances who were Catholic and I never knew it. Feature that.

Many of them are what is called cafeteria Catholics. They take what is palatable and ignore what they don't like. They use birth control even!

Her e-mail was unnecessary. Given that school is almost starting, she could have easily just said thanks for sending my son over to keep hers company during the summer, but he won't need the company anymore, and then let it go.

I also agree that I could let it go with my son, but I already brought it up with him this afternoon, and I wanted to understand his perspective on things. I also think he's capable of learning how human relationships work, even if things suck sometimes. So, I didn't let it go completely. He was only slightly disappointed about the end of the playdates (one of which was to be tonight), and he was not unhappy at all when I told him we are going to the park and for ice cream tonight. He has several friends he sees almost every day, so I think he'll get over this fast, if not already.

I was also raised Catholic but can't imagine having ever tried to talk to a friend about Jesus as a kid for more than the slightest moment. And I imagine if had ever upset another child by doing so, I would have been instructed by my parents to be more respectful of others' beliefs.

havetobeanonthistime Wrote:
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> I was also raised Catholic but can't imagine having ever tried to talk to a friend about Jesus as a kid for more than the slightest moment.

For real. I didn't even discuss Jesus with my Catholic friends. What happened in Catechism class stayed in Catechism class. And we had some very strict, forbidding nuns teaching us! I had better things to talk about outside of class, like toys and TV shows and that cute red-headed boy. :)

This really strikes me as the mom not realizing what was really going on. Little children are still learning social conventions. The boy could just as easily have been going on and on about cartoons, or toys, or anything else your son wasn't interested in. If you son had said, "make him stop talking about penguins", the adult probably just would have had a conversation about how to be polite when you want to change the subject. It's only because the subject in question was "Jesus" that this turned into a big deal.

I agree with that. I also dont find most Catholics interested in telling children gory stories about Jesus although I am sure there are exceptions. I suspect your son was bored and the mother and sister got upset because it was about Jesus and they are religious. Both kids seem to have been acting like five year olds. Of course that is assuming that the friend doesnt go on and on about Jesus all the time. That is not typical behavior. The parents over reacted and it probably isnt any great loss.

I wish you'd either not answered he email at all and blocked her number, or just responded "Ummm,ok..." Both implying that she's an insane person and she's coming from crazy town and needs no reponse for that kind of crazy coming at you from nowhere. I guess her kids not going to be allowed to have Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu friend then.

I might have told her your son is five years old, bored with the subject and was acting like a five year old boy. Tell her that this was not intended as an insult to her, her religion,her parenting,her son or Jesus. It was simply a five year old being a five year old. Tell her you will talk to your son about listening to others and suggest that she talk to hers about not going on when someone says they are bored. Then tell her you think she was seriously over reacting.Since you have noted that your son has problems with rules,you might ask for specifics so you can address other issues or misbehavior with your son.Then drop it.If she still doesnt want the kids to play,no great loss but maybe she will think about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2014 08:10PM by bona dea.

Hi--so sorry about this. I am glad my kids are out of the phase where you have to watch out for these things constantly. I can remember it being so sensitive. What kids tell you happens is usually not terribly accurate.
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If these kids aren't going to the same school next year, I would let it go and concentrate on helping him make friends with kids close by who might be good prospects. If they are not at the same school, it's unlikely a friendship is going to flourish anyway.

Also, anytime there was an unbalance of who is the hostess of playdates, trouble seemed to crop up, so I would suggest outfitting your place with cool stuff, so kids will come to your house---that way you are not playing a guessing game as to what goes on.

Yes, guns and dogs and pools. I quit letting my daughter go to a house when I found out they had a gun, and I thought the parents were a little dippy and unreliable. Their son was into everything.

Jesus, not so dangerous, but could get dull, for sure. Hopefully you can find better prospects for friendships. Good luck!

you knew I was a snake when you took me home.

Thanks all for the replies and insights.

With school starting for both kids in a couple weeks, it's really a non-issue now. I just wanted to share my experience here to get insights, and to hear how others might have replied to her - even if just for fun since my brief reply was already sent and with no intent of further contact.

My wife and I (yes, I'm the dad, which I realize I hadn't mentioned) agreed we need to be more careful about making sure our son's friendships have more balanced parental supervision. If other parents resist that, then it will be a big red flag. We can allow more imbalance once trust is gained.

And lest anyone worry about our son finding friends, that is really no concern at all. He has several neighborhood friends, pre-school friends, and friends through our friendships that he gets along with just fine. These now defunct playdates were more of a favor done by us to give the other boy some company for the summer since he was the lonely one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9MUycYD6Y

This could have been the mother ;)

If one kid doesn't want to play Candyland, the friends have to decide to take turns or play something they both like.

If one kid doesn't want to talk about Jesus, they can talk about something else or decide to take turns. That's life.

If they're in a church run school, non-religious children must learn to get used to religious talk at school.

I taught in a public school kindergarten and I told kiddies they needed to get used to staying quiet about their differing religious teachings whenever they were in class or on the school grounds.

Taxpayers and differing religions shouldn't have to put up with religious arguments and indoctrination of children who are in school to learn their abcs and social skills. One skill is to determine when and where it's appropriate to discuss religious beliefs.

Talking to the class about this in an informal meeting worked well. Once or twice in 32 years I had to call parents and tell them to remind their kiddies not to preach at other kids who did not share their same religious beliefs. The parents seemed oblivious until I pointed out that they wouldn't want other kids preaching unacceptably to their JW or fundie Christian kiddies in public school. If kids want to play freely and interact at school, they must follow rules of civility.

I don't think specific religious preaching should be done on the job where there are differing opinions or at schools. If someone wants to seek out a job in a church office or religious oriented workplace, they can talk about church all day long just like the kids who attend a church run school.

I live in the Bible Belt. A similar situation happened to me when my son was 6. Our next door neighbors were bible thumping home schoolers. I actually thought it was a good lesson for my son. We talked about how different people have different beliefs and he certainly does not have to agree. But if he isn't having fun or feels uncomfortable- he certainly does not have to play with the neighbor boys.

The bible mother did try, at one point, to convert me to her bible love- but I made it clear that we were not interested. I explicitly told her that we were atheists, but I am raising my children to be respectful of other people's beliefs and to make their own decisions and not follow the crowd. I told her I would not be offended if she answered by child's direct questions, but that I was not interested in having her teach sunday school to my child when he was at her house. Play dates were for play- not religious time.

For a while the boys played great and were able to agree to disagree- particularly when they mostly talked about super heroes. Eventually the mom realized I wasn't amicable to her not so gentle nudges to push me towards her religion. I also think I offended her when she told me how awful it is that gay people are starting to get married because her wonderful marriage is between her, her husband and god. I said, well my husband and I have a great marriage and there is no god threeway for us- so if I'm allowed to get married without god in the midddle, why can't any other two adults? We were no longer invited for play dates And then they moved. Problem solved.

I think it's important- in all circumstances- for kids to know they can and should speak their opinion (respectfully and at the right time) and set personal boundaries. Kids at this age are capable of more than we give them credit for.