I respect john and I think his intentions are to improve tolerance within the Morg and I think his inevitable excommunication will aid in gaining momentum for change. I do however think that when you entertain and support ideas which are contrary to that of the "Devine leadership" well at that point your kind of a troll. John is an extremely brave individual and I like that he is trolling it really is a win win situation for him regardless of his end fate. I say let the morg be the morg though. The issue with the church isn't just the fact that it's misogynistic and racist it's that it claims to be true and to be inspired by the lard. Take away all those claims and the morg has less of an inspired mission than the Salvation Army. Give an inch and lose a mile
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2014 12:14AM by duskus.
I didn't mean to imply that he was exed although it seems likely to happen as he in my opinion has shown little respect or discretion in keeping the hearings to himself. Can they do anything but ex him at this point.
I dont see a good reason as to why he needs to keep the hearings to himself.. I thhink its great that hes making these things public. The only reason a hearing like that should be kept private is to protect the privacy of the person involved in the hearing. And he doesnt feel the need for that protection, so no need for privacy. Sacred, not secret.
The Catholic church used to excommunicate dissenters too. Dehlin's hope is that the Mormon church can speed up past the middle ages. To do what the Catholic church did over thousands of years in a only matter of decades.
It's still an open question if Mormonism can get past the dark ages at all.
It takes balls to claim membership to the morg, then go against the infallible leadership opening yourself up to what I can only assume is crappy treatment, mean looks and ostracizing from your leadership and fellow members.
Jumping into a burning building, firing a gun at some poor extremist bastard in his bombed out miserable country, and patrolling the streets are not the only ways to show bravery. In fact Id say a lot of people have a harder time being brave by standing up for what they believe in right. John is standing up for what is right and at the same time it is kind of a dick move. Everyone org even the morg has a right to be as wrong as they want to be. Move on John, let the morg be what it is, in changing it you would be making it into something else.
He says on his website that he's not a believer. He enjoys his membership, thinks some of the tradition and ritual is nice, etc..., but he does not believe in the restoration, prophets, etc...
The Morg is still smarting from the Kate Kelly fiasco. They really got a black eye for that misstep.
So, TSCC is not quite sure what to do with John. Remember -- he was supposed to have his kangaroo court in early June. But nothing has happened yet. Why is that?
Obviously, the thing TSCC cares about most is its image in the public square. They do not want more bad press. And because John happens to support a very politically popular cause -- LGBT rights -- the Morg has to tread very lightly.
I say his Stake will put him on probation or disfellowship him, thereby hoping to avoid the wrath of the national media but marginalizing him, nonetheless, amongst TSCC members.
I don't know him, I've listened to his interviews and such. My impression is that he likes the attention and expects to benefit in terms of perhaps writing a book or in terms of hosting workshops ($$$) to help de-program people who leave. His profession and degree are psychology/counseling, as I understand it. Otherwise his insights are no different than mine or yours. He just is always in the print media, and I think he likes it.
Wait- he is very different from you and me because we learned the truth and then, in whatever time frame suited us, we left the group we felt were disingenuous.
John Dehlin says he likes the "culture" but we know that the Mormon church has had the fun sucked out of it by the businessmen who now run it. They treat the members like digits and the members feel it.
What can he possibly like, I ask? The candles? The stained glass windows? The sense of sacred space? The quiet? The cleanliness and refuge offered at all hours of day or night? The food? The dances? The parties? The roadshows? All gone.
Can it be the inspirational speeches? No. The inspiring architecture? The educational teachings in history? No.
There really is little of good report left in this religion becoming more Puritanical (photoshop those sleeves in there, make sure the arm crotch is well covered) as the rest of the country loosens up.
I think John is witty and has carved himself a unique niche, not unlike Stephen Colbert. He is a "personality" who can say what others are thinking but afraid to say. His niche is being ruined by the pressure put on him by exmormons and his recent identification as one who doesn't believe but still wants to stay.
He embarrasses the church because he has check-mated them. As long as he pays, he stays says that they are only after the money and don't care whether he is a believer or not. On the other hand, if they discipline him or (gasp) excommunicate him, they are seen as not allowing free speech and being heavy handed toward one who was seeking normal internal change like happens in every other church around the world.
It delights me that he has put them in this awkward position but I see him moving out of it to inherit the insider niche as the heir of Grant Palmer.
I for one am glad to see Mr. Dehlin posting here occasionally. I have had harsh words for him in the past, but after watching some of his stuff, and his recent...issues, I don't understand his position, but I have a lot of respect for him.
He has been consistent recently. He's an unequivocal non-believer.
However, 6-12 months ago he got up and gave a blubbering testimony. I don't recall what he said. He probably wasn't saying the church was true, etc., but he embarrassed himself. So, people who saw that might question what he's all about.
But, go to "About" on mormon stories. He calls the church a fraud, but in a nice way.
I listened to that testimony podcast. I thought it was good. It showed a man who was truly conflicted and hurt. I do not think any sane person should stay in the church. But i understand where he is coming from. And i think, possibly part of why he is so conflicted is that the church has changed quite a bit in his lifetime. From talking to other people, i have found that church used to actually be fun, and not quite as restrictive. Its just a mental concentration camp now :/ and i say that seriously.
I think he's sincere and just by the nature of what he does, is a lot more open about his journey than what most people would do.
Lots of people criticize him for not quitting TSSC, but I get the sense that he really believes there is positive in it which if changed can be beneficial.
It's a completely different viewpoint than mine. I never felt any particular comforting spirit within Mormonism, even when I was growing up as a uber-TBM. Nor did I feel any particularly closeness with other members, especially as I got older.
The further I get away from Mormonism, the less I feel the need for black and white thinking, that people must ether be 100% for or against.
As a angry, bitter ex-Mormon, I love the JDs and KKs. I think they are much more beneficial in helping other people's shelves collapse. I just don't think that John is doing it intentionally as a troll.
John has shown genuine integrity, for what he believes. Also, what many others believe. He can influence change from within the organization, much greater than from the outside. My family and I stand behind him even though others on both ends don't understand the devotion.
The same thing most posters here think. John Dehlin thinks Joseph Smith was a fraud. Period. Go read the About page on mormon stories. He leaves no doubt.
In fact, I've often wondered if John Dehlin hates the mormon church far more than anyone who posts here. He's just hell bent on sharing the truth with mormons.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2014 09:46PM by thingsithink.
Sometimes I wonder what his motives are. I know he likes the culture, but he has a lot of problems with the church. Is his goal to spread the truth to help people out of the church, or to stay in?
I like the guy, and I like the work he's doing. He's made it easier for those that question and doubt and want to leave/have left, and easier for those that question and doubt and want to stay in. It's telling that we have exmo and TBM friends that will listen to and discuss his podcasts.
The reason I wonder what his motives are is obviously it's taken an enormous amount of time and energy and never ending dedication to interviewing/discussing/writing all things Mormon. Just thinking about and reading this board exhausts me sometimes; I get sick and tired of thinking about and talking about Mormon stuff. Sometimes I need a break from discussing mormon issues - as new exmos it's still on our minds a lot. Thankfully it's becoming easier, we're quickly transitioing into a "normal" life, and there have actually been days when I don't think about my mormon past and how it's affected me.
Why can't people just get over having to analyze and trash John Dehlin. He has made an amazing contribution to bringing the truth out and giving voice to so many important stories like Hans and Birgitta Matson, Tom Phillips, Bill Bradshaw, the Danzigs, the Prince family, Christine Jeppsen Clark, Brent Metcalf, Simon Southerton and so many more. Why do people have to spend their time trying to drive people like John Dehlin off the internet. These people contribute nothing but find it so fun to attack the motives of those who contribute so much. It happens over and over with the people who dare to put their name and reputation out there to make a difference. If you aren't really contributing anything, then why not just leave alone the ones who do. So many interesting and intelligent people have been driven off the boards with the constant attacks about their reasons or whether they are attention seekers, etc. that the boards just become more boring and the church is helped. Whether you like John Dehlin or not, no one has brought more pressure on the church to change than he and the people he interviews. There is no one like him out there right now that has the pull to talk to the most important people in the real story of Mormonism, so let's give the guy a break.
Wandering Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Whether you like > John Dehlin or not, no one has brought more > pressure on the church to change than he and the > people he interviews.
And this is a recommendation how for people wanting to recover from it?
It looks like his pretty wife goes out of her way to show that she doesn't wear garments. and him hanging out in family pictures with his wife in sun dresses and stuff seems to show that he goes out of his way to show that they don't practice the garment stuff.
Elder Berry, Maybe I didn't really say what I meant with that sentence. Try this. Whether you like John Dehlin or not, no one has done more to expose the true nature of the church through providing a place where fascinating people in and out of the church have felt safe to tell their stories and for me that has been a fantastic source of healing and recovery, and by far the best thing that I was able to get my TBM wife to listen to, which finally helped her to see what I was talking about and save our marriage. He gets people like Hans Matson to give him several hours and really put the truth out there and TBM's and the church have no answer for it because it is just simple, beautiful truth. We need it to continue so that more of my family members can eventually wake up.