I'm not saying anything on this post that hasn't been said here before. I've been lurking this forum and have been reading a lot of experiences. Thank you SusieQ#1 for your post about how you made it work.

This is merely me shouting my barbaric yalp from the rooftops!

My de-conversion process has lasted roughly 4 years. I am a 4 generation Mormon, but like everyone else on this forum, I couldn't stop asking questions. Like the movie "Letting go of God" by Julia Sweeny, every question I asked seemed to take me in a more messed up place, to the point where no religion made sense to me.

I've gone on my own "intellectual pilgrimage" if you will and at this point I consider myself an Agnostic Atheist/human secularist. I told my wife about this about 3 months ago and she almost had a nervous breakdown. Since then we've been seeing a counselor to work through our issues.

What I am struggling with the most is wondering if I should go all out, or "keep one foot in the pool."

My son turns 8 and my wife would like me (a worthy priesthood holder) to baptize him. Part of me says, "who cares, I'll baptize him because it really doesn't matter, I can play the part and pretend. There is no God, so there's no harm in playing along" The other part of me says, "This is wholly disingenuous and I should be completely open and honest about who I am."

Here's the deal, if I do decide to "come out of the closet" as an atheist, I'm going to go all out and do it for everyone in my family and my in-law family. If I do so the repercussions will be severe and swift. I already know what is going to happen and it ugly. i'm bracing myself for that.

The one reason I'm considering "keeping one foot in the pool," is I have a lot of atheist and secularist friends who keep it a secret and don't tell anyone what they really believe, they just go to church to keep their wives/family happy. (To me I see a huge change coming in the future because all religions including our Mormon religion is rotting from the core. Atheism, agnosticism and syncretism is taking over faster than I ever thought possible)

I want to make it work in my marriage, and my heart breaks to hear those who divorced over Mormonism. I don't want to go there, and I will do what it takes to make my marriage work. I am leaning towards coming out of the closet completely and declaring myself as an atheist and a non-believing Mormon (a cultural mormon?) I just wonder which path I will regret the most....

I can empathize with your need to "keeping one foot in the pool" as it's so much of the original core of the marriage - what it was based upon and how it functioned for some time.

It's a bit like walking a tight rope sometimes.'

So many decisions to make about how to keep the family functioning, and be honest with yourself.

Rather than think in terms of regrets, think in terms of what is most productive and will build rather than destroy.
Look for ways to support the relationship without making it about the religion. That may work best.

You are in the middle of a strong cultural-familial emotionally bonded expectation.
It's hard for people in such a strong traditional culture to change their expectations as they multi-faceted!

So now, your decision: what to do? Baptize the child as a gift to your wife and child, and keep the door open for more full-disclosure as you go along? Or ... leave it to someone else as that is likely what will happen.

What is the ultimate goal, what is the best course of action- short time?

Lots to think about !

Do what you think is best all around that you can live with in a kind and respectful manner.

My best to you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 12:46PM by SusieQ#1.

I'm in the same boat. If you have one foot in, like me, here is the deal...you have to accept you are consciously keeping one foot in and you tell your wife you are keeping one foot in for family peace and that you don't believe. Then never talk about it again, except with us here. Make a decision to be happy with your decision, don't keep re-visiting it. You are done, you decided. It is not true, your wife and kids know, but you don't tell a bishop or anybody else. You just go on, living your life, enjoying your marriage. You're done, you have made the decision. It can be done this way. It is not impossible. It is impossible if you keep playing mind games with yourself, but it is possible.

elciz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I'm a supporter of elciz's approach...it's also much of what I did.
>

elciz,

You are absolutely right. I guess I hadn't thought of it in the absolute sense that you described. If I make the decision, I need to stick with that decision and never deviate from it.

My dad does the same thing, and it was nice to have some support when I decided to defect.

I'm in an eerily similar situation right now. I just found out about a month ago. I told my wife who initially had a really hard time but now she is starting to form her own new belief system. She still wants to go to church so I am going with her.

My son is getting baptized June 23. I always looked forward to that day until now. We were so TBM that we turned him into the most TBM, indoctrinated kid in the primary. Now I have to find a way to undo what I did. He really wants to get baptized, and although I have quit my Ward Clerk calling, I haven't told anybody how I believe because I don't want my family to become a project and I don't want my family to be treated second-class while they still want to attend.

My opinion is that I have as much authority (none) as a TBM to perform the ordinance. It is more something that I'm doing for him right now because it is an important 'coming of age' event in his mind. It will hopefully be something that we can talk about later as a cultural ritual and one that I was glad to be a part of.

As for the future, my strategy is to take it slow. Let people see I'm still more or less the same person and give them hints little by little until I feel comfortable enough to tell them that I am Agnostic. I believe this will help people question their own beliefs more and not ruin as many relationships.

There are some things I won't do. There is no way I'm paying tithing ever again, and I'm not doing any calling to provide free labor to the corporation.

I think your approach overall is a good one that does the least damage while provides you room to feel good about yourself by not allowing the cult to take further advantage of you through tithing and free labor.
One thing I would throw out there on the baptism thing. It is a right of passage amongst mormons so I can see how not allowing your child to do it, especially if they really want to is a tough thing. The problem with letting them go through with it is that they do actually make promises as part of the process. Some kids don't pay attention to that but some do. I know I thought about it and worried about my every mistake for a long time after because I felt like every mistake was me screwing god over on my "promis". Thats a heavey burden for an 8 year old to carry. My suggestion is to tell your child you think 8 years old is too young to make such an important decision and that if they still feel strongly about joining after they turn 12 or 16 then you will be happy to support them.

I will say that when I finally came out it was to the point that I felt it can't continue this way.

I think you should also consider your soon to be 8 year old child in this. Are you ok with them being indoctrinated in something you know is a lie? What are you going to tell them if they come to you years later with their life in shambles and struggling to throw off mormonism and ask you why if you knew it was a lie you still allowed them to be indoctrinated? Mormonsim isnt damaging to everyone, but it can be extrememly damaging to some people. Just read this board long enough and you will see that. You clearly cannot know before hand how much damage the cult will do to your child, so leaving your child in mormonism is risky. Ultimately, is your first responsibility to protect the feelings of your grown wife or the mental and physical well being of your defensless child? You can't and shouldnt stop your wife from sharing her mormon faith you your children but as you know its a lie I think its critical you make sure they get exposed to the truth as well for both the sake of your own integrity and their general well-being.

Unfortunately because of the indoctrination I did on him, he knows full well that he is making promises. Like I said, I have to find a way to undo what I did. I already told him that it's very possible that Joseph Smith wasn't telling the truth and he really didn't want to hear that. He just shut down and got a scowl on his face. If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate it.

Sorry iamtheswoop, I don't mean to hijack your thread. It's an unfair position we are put in that requires us to make a lot of bad/worse/worst decisions (opposite of good/better/best bs).

Dude, you're not hijacking this at all. Matter of fact, I think it's amazing that we're going through the exact same thing. luckily I don't have a calling right now. I was in the primary, but the we had twins and the ward split, so I'm in the "don't call him to anything yet" limbo area....which has been very nice.

As far as undoing what you already did, I wouldn't worry too much about it actually. I have been listening to a lot of Neil Degrasse Tyson (he's so cool) and he talks about how he wants kids to get interested in science, so he merely explains concepts to them and they become naturally interested. He doesn't force anything, he instead elicits excitement.

I've also noticed (by watching my millions of Youtube atheists such as Evidenc3, Brett Palmer or Steve Shives) that you don't need to undo anything; you just need to teach them how to ask questions, and that it is okay to ask questions and the rest will follow.

(Since I am the model parent obviously I'm giving an anecdote... haha)
When my kids ask me questions I try to answer them as truthfully as possible, but I always add stuff on top to make them more curious. "Dad why is the sky blue?" Answer: "Well the sky is blue because of the amount of an element called nitrogen in the atmosphere, and how light is absorbed and reflected by this element....do you know what an element is? do you remember what the atmosphere is? do you remember how light works?"

Stuff like that I have found just lights my kids eyes up. Or another example is, "Did Noah really happen?" Answer, "I don't think it happened, but I don't know if it happened, it's fun to read about all the animals isn't it?"

I hope everything goes okay with your wife.

"What are you going to tell them if they come to you years later with their life in shambles and struggling to throw off mormonism and ask you why if you knew it was a lie you still allowed them to be indoctrinated? Mormonsim isnt damaging to everyone, but it can be extrememly damaging to some people."

-jesuswantsme4asucker

Facing the facts is a rough thing to do. This is clearly the truth and it's looking into the mirror and facing the worst. I understand Mormonism is damaging because I was one of those "victims" (if you will). The emotional damage and Depersonalization disorder I experienced will haunt me forever and will always be a part of me.

You are absolutely right! I think I have decided what I need to do now. I'm going to write a letter to each of my kids (to be opened sometime later) and explain exactly what I am going through, and why I am making these decisions now.

I need to take my foot out of the pool and be myself. I need to tell everyone the truth regardless of the repercussions.

I also need to support my wife in her belief and never attempt to "convert" her to my viewpoint. Only give her my unconditional love and support while setting boundaries:

here are my boundaries (why I am posting this I don't know):

1. I will attend church with my wife and the family to respect my wifes wishes
2. I will not be active in any church activities or ordinances
3. I will not pay tithing from my own paycheck
4. I will respect my children's right to choose what they want and will never attempt to force them into any position
5. I will not be an anti-theist or attempt to make my wife uncomfortable regarding religion.
6. I will be completely open about my choices and tell my wife why I have made a choice.

I think that's good for now....

I love Neil de Grasse Tyson too. And I love his approach. But it only works if you tell the truth. Otherwise you teach the kids to compartmentalize. And compartmentalization is what allows the cult to be a cult. Cult: there are issues you may not question. You may not go where the answer leads you. If you buck the accepted answers, you will be figuratively executed by the community. It's a cruel system that forces people to live a lie.

So in your example, you explain why the sky is blue. It's about how light is absorbed by nitrogen. All very factual because the cult hasn't weighed in on the truth about the sky, so truth about the sky is fair game. However, the child asks, "Is Noah true?" The answer, "I don't think so, it might be, animals are cute aren't they (diversion). . ." Equivocate, equivocate. The answer is no. It's not true. By not speaking clearly on the subject, the only message conveyed is that this religious question is off-limits. Compartmentalization has begun. On one hand is truth, on the other hand is the demands of the cult. The cult's got its demands, you must submit; truth be damned. Mr de Grasse Tyson is publicly an atheist for a reason.

^
+1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 01:09PM by charpop705.

About the young child - and children in general: it's best, I think to stay out of the right/wrong, lies, approach.

Instead, it might be best to say something along the lines: not everyone understands the church claims the same way. When you are older, I'll explain why I see it all differently, now.
He can wonder without it being about right or wrong, or about lies.
I would not challenge a young child.

Yes, you taught him one thing, and when he is older, he will hopefully be able to understand that there are thousands of religions and everyone can change their mind if they want to.

I opened this thread to read because I thought it might be about a "duel partnership." My ex-wife and I certainly had one. By the end, I couldn't have any thoughts that weren't "doctrinally correct" without being assaulted.

I see you're hoping to maintain a "dual partnership." I hope it goes well for you.

I continued attending Church despite "dwindling in unbelief."

First, my spouse was so tied into the LDS lifestyle that I couldn't exit the Church without leaving her as well. I suspect LDS teachings that do not respect dissent allow her to be abusive against any challenge to her "testimony."

Second, while my children were being "indoctrinated" at Church, if I left I wouldn't have had any influence.

Third, if I attend Church, I can "monitor" what is going on. My ex-wife is an "all in" TBM. She volunteers for *everything*. I attended to keep her within reasonable bounds.

I would tell my wife I was "less active." She would complain to the bishop. The bishop would reply, "The best ward clerk I have ever known couldn't be less active." I set my limits with the Church and that was final.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 02:54PM by idleswell.

Ha, thanks you notice my little pun. I was wondering if someone would notice (yes, I know I'm a nerd).

It actually is a duel right now, but at therapy last night the therapist called both of us on it. He said we were fighting and tearing each other down with the nicest words he's ever heard. He laughed a little and told us to stop fighting under "the veneer of pleasantness."


I want to move to the dual partnership, but we're not there yet...hence the pun. It literally hurts to read your story about about your ex-wife. Was she the one who finally moved for the divorce?

My wife felt completely justified marching up to me and booting me in the shins because she felt I was "smiling wickedly." My daughter told my wife that she had just witnessed an assault!

My adult daughter told me I had to "get away." She was primarily refering to our family business which put me together with my ex-wife daily. So I found employment in my natural field in another province.

I was sitting in my apartment in another city deciding what to do? I realized that nobody had assaulted me or oppressed me since I was apart from my wife. So we separated. We are now divorced (so she can date again). She attends the temple looking for a suitable husband.

I remember ~2000 I visited a lawyer to explore a separation. I decided it wasn't the time. We had 3 children - one with special needs. My home life was chaos. But if I left, I knew my wife would want full custody of the children. She was abusive to them as well (all in the name of religion), but not enough that I could prove to overcome the legal bias against fathers.

In addition, we were living in the USA where my wife was legally barred from employment. The lawyer said I would be expected to support her to whatever standard of living she had before I left.

I decided it was best to wait, my perpetual depression and desperation notwithstanding. When I did exit the marriage, our youngest child was 21 and supposed to be self-sufficient. My ex-wife still expects me to support her in perpetuity. My lawyer showed her lawyer how the law says differently. My wife is unemployable in general society because she might be required to work Sundays, hear swearing or salacious talk.

Iamtheswoop, you are the man!

Good luck on coming out.

I am going about it a different way but I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong way of handling this that is the same for everybody. I am more comfortable taking it slow and that may be right for my situation but not yours.

idleswell, I am so sorry your marriage didn't work out. I was talking to my wife last night and I told her that the only thing I can think of that might be harder to go through than losing a loved one is to go through a divorce. I can sympathize with your approach with your children. I too am afraid of limiting my influence if I refuse to participate at all in the church experience. In my experience people have a really hard time dealing with big changes and if you can spread the change out in smaller doses over longer periods of time it is less risky and less damaging.

I'm in a similar situation as you, iamtheswoop. I had decided for the sake of my family and keeping the peace that I would "keep one foot in the pool." But honestly, it's not working out so well.

Even though my husband knows of my unbelief, I think going along with it even with decreased participation is giving him hope that I will change my mind. I know everyone is a little different, but I'm finding it very difficult to be inauthentic--on the one hand going to church and acting "churchy" and then coming home and reading RFM.

Also, the LDS church makes it very difficult for you to just dip your feet in the pool. If you don't jump in on your own, they constantly try to yank you in with assignments and phone calls and such. You might have more luck choosing your participation level in the church if you live outside of Utah. But, if you live in Utah (as I do) I think it might be harder to be a "foot dipper" than to just completely walk away from the pool.

Where is it easy to become "anonymous" in the LDS Church?

My ex-wife has relatives in Utah. Her cousin says that in her SA ward you are on a waiting list for a calling. In BC, NB (or anwhere in Canada except Calgary south in Alberta) any ward member is expect to have both a leadership and a teaching calling (or more).

However, when you move around the mission field the Church isn't likely to "find" your address. Your neighbour isn't likely to report that "a family with X beautiful children has moved into the ward" (oops, neighbourhood). When we lived in Vancouver, B.C. a ward in our stake had over 2000 members, but with only attendance less than 100. The elders quorum president reported that even if he assigned every active home teaching companionship 16 families to teach, their quorum wouldn't reach 10% coverage. When someone gives the Church an address at 1 Bental Center (a major office complex downtown) their implicit message is "get lost."

Ask yourself if you're ok lying to your kid(s) - evn by omission. It might not be that big of a deal when he is eight, but look down the road. As a teenager, he'll be taught that masturbation is not ok, and all sorts of rules about intimacy and sex. He'll be pressured to go on a mission at 18-where your money will be used so he can spread the lie-for two of the best years of his "prime". He will be pushed to marry a good Mormon girl and have the cycle repeat. He will be taught that women should obey their husbands.

Even worse, what if he is gay? What will he be taught then? What will he be taught to think about those who are?

Many in this board, self included, thing that Mormonism is damaging. Obviously you need to weigh that against your personal situation. Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2013 03:47PM by moonbeam.

I think all of us who can see the truth don't want our kids raised in the church. It is our spouses who push for that and we are trying to keep the family together and influence our children to find out out for themselves. We know the damage that the church causes, I am concerned that if I push too hard I will lose most if not all influence with DW and the kids.

On another note, I live in the bible belt, and I can say that it can be easier to get lost here. The membership rolls are so full of inactives and the boundaries of the ward are spread out over 2 counties. Plus the rest of my life outside of Sunday services and what DW does in the home never has anything to do with mormonism. All of my closest friends here are not members of the church, the community organizations we participate in have almost no members of the church, and TBM family members live hundreds of miles away.

First off, I am in favor of being authentic with your children. It is money in the bank because you will have their respect. This doesn't mean being confrontative, it means being inclusive and having respect for other beliefs. This is a great contrast to Mormonism and it's attractive. Even children sense that people of other religions , devoted and praying trying to live a good life, are acceptable to God.

A partnership based on inequality is doomed to fail, might as well get a divorce. Otherwise your children grow up with one parent having all the power and the other one muzzled. In what world is this healthy?

If parents can agree to a mixed marriage where both parents' beliefs are respected, then yes, it can work. But the model you folks are talking about, the foot in the water model, will never work longterm.

I know that because I am the product of just such a marriage. When I grew up, the muzzled parent, my father was a complete stranger. We were not close and I felt bitter that I was never important enough for him to tell me how he really believed about God, the universe, etc. By the time he might have been ready to talk, he was remarried and his new wife didn't want him spending "what time he had left to enjoy" with his children.

I have no idea who my father was, how he managed to be so successful after being in five foster homes, who his primary religious influences were, why they had a cat named "Jesus Christ," etc. I found all this out from other relatives.

I don't know why you all think you would lose influence with your children if you divorce. I would have rather have had alternate weekends with my father and gotten to know him rather than spend all my time at Masses, retreats, seminars, vacation bible school and all the church time instead of the parent time.

Do you honestly think your presence without your thoughts and ideas being permitted is actually an "influence?"

Now, to my own children and what happened.

I have nine children, four boys raised in MOrmonism pretty much and five raised in a divorced home - their Dad the Mormon and me not. The kids raised in Mormonism have far more serious problems than the ones raised in the divorced home. One is dead, another is insane, a third hasn't spoken to me in ten years, the youngest of that group has two children and is in rehab as I write this.

The youngest five (girls) I raised are all working, raising children, and struggling to overcome the problems caused by my raising them with my still-Mormon mindset even though out of the church. You don't stop having a black-and-white, we're right and others are wrong, mindset just because you found out Joseph Smith was a liar and a pedophile. So there's that.

All these children feel they had a chaotic childhood because of my struggles to sort things out, moving too much, etc. They are all atheists and I am close to most of them now (having done some extensive personal work with Buddhist psychology).

The one thing they all agree on is that I handled the split from the Mormon church perfectly, and they are grateful for that. Here's what I did:

I gathered them together and said, "Look, you know that I have taught you to follow the teachings of Christ. I have just learned that the Mormon church believes that their current leader is more important than Jesus--that if he says something that's different from what Jesus said, we should all do what he says because he is living in our time.

I don't believe that at all. I think the Mormon church is wrong and I never understood that they believed this. SO - I'm not going to church at the ward any more.

I know that you have friends and some of you enjoy your classes. Any of you that want to go can go, but I am not giving rides. The little kids won't be going, except if you are singing or in a play, sure we will all go to support you.

Each of you can make your own decision, so think about it before you decide how YOU feel. Your actions should always match what you believe in your heart, so take time to decide if you need it.

At that time, seven kids were still at home, the two that were grown had already left the church. The oldest at home was fifteen. Nobody chose to continue to attend the Mormon church.

I told the kids I would be attending other churches so they could see how other people worshipped and whoever wanted to come could come along. It was all voluntary. Some did and we had some good times, but nothing really stuck.

The one thing that stuck is that my children know that I am who I am. My religion is Popeye.

It can take time to know how you feel about something important. Remember, you who have newly discovered that Mormonism is false are novices at making decisions for your life all yourself. You've been operating with a template up until now. Now there's a blank page before you.

It might help you to look away from the decision and the pros and cons for the immediate future and think about the larger part of your life. Your children will be adults and you will be there parent far longer than their childhood was. Will they feel special to you if you never told them your true feelings? Will they ever believe you?

I can tell you I never believed anything my father told me once I learned he had made an agreement with my mother not to tell me about his lack of belief in religion. It wasn't a decision, I just knew in my heart he had higher priorities than sharing his true self with me.

He ended up splitting up with my mother and marrying someone else, and then her priorities were more important, so I was right.

He died in 1997 and I didn't even cry at his funeral. He was a good, hardworking man and all, I just didn't know him.


Anagrammy

Oh, and PS. My son in rehab sent me a beautiful letter for Mother's Day. He said, "Your example of a person who can change later in life is my greatest inspiration. I don't know how you did it, but I was your biggest critic and very skeptical. You made a believer out of me and now I think if you did it, I can do it too."

He's talking about my changing from my heart and sharing it with him. I changed from a person with a comefrom of "I am right and in time you will see it" to "You may be right" and letting it go. My son is in his forties and this is the first time we've been close.

Being real is worth it.

Anagrammy I am sorry for what happened with you and your father. What I am talking about was apparently not the right thing to do in a situation like that. What I am saying is that there are situations when keeping one foot in is the right thing to do.

For me, I am in a very happy marriage that hasn't stopped being a happy marriage since I stopped believing. Getting a divorce for me right now is unthinkable. I am not censored in my home. When I talk about not pushing too hard I don't mean not sharing or opening up at all. I mean I don't want to attack Dw's and the kids beliefs by being too open with my opinions. I believe that in my case it is best to take it slow. If I become close-minded and rigid in my unbelief then I'm afraid they will go into defensive mode and dig in for a fight.

I realize that is not what you were saying either, I am just trying to explain why keeping 'one foot in' might be right in some situations.

It is religion and especially mormons who like to make hard and fast rules that apply for everybody in all situations. I believe that is the wrong way to look at things.

There are no hard and fast rules because every marriage is different.

My intent was to show that divorce can be a viable option as well.

The goal is to save the marriage and I believe more marriages survive that are based on mutual respect than any agreement to gag someone.

There is no reason, in my opinion, a believer OR an unbeliever should be forced into silence about their views. To me, a child should be able to take that their parents agree to disagree about religion. It's a microcosm of how the real world is, with people in school and in the workplace having different beliefs but getting along fine.

Letting oneself be cast as someone who "doesn't believe" is a mistake, in my view. You have beliefs, they are just different than your wives. Perhaps you believe in science, or atheism, or Catholicism, or are "spiritual but not religious." These are all beliefs. "Daddy believes differently" is better than "Daddy has lost his testimony/faith/belief."

Good luck and keep us posted. We're rooting for you!

Ana

Hello, All - I am very new here - have lurked for a short while, and I've been struggling with my testimony.

To the OP (and others in similar positions) - I admire you all for wanting to do the 'right' thing, and I can see how difficult it would be to be authentic and true to yourself, and still support your spouse and kids.

Even though I am seriously struggling with my own testimony, I can say with complete honesty that I wish, more than anything, my kids had been able to attend this church. I joined long after they had grown up, and I was divorced for many years. There are many good things about the values in the church, and we live in a really terrifying world.

A couple I know have something of a 'mixed marriage' now. He has lost his belief, but he attends to support his family. I respect this decision, and I can see the benefit in it. Perhaps it is creating a way for the kids to make their own decisions? Maybe it would be more difficult in Happy Valley, but we all live in a different area, and for the most part, members here seem to be accepting his decision and not condemning him. I'm sure there's a lot of 'hope he will soften' thinking, though.

I see the conflicting information and teachings, so I know those bring their own issues with kids. I don't know what I would be feeling if I had grown up in the church and then explored fact vs fiction. But I do know the overall culture is better than many non-church settings.

Please don't flame me - I'm not as far out the door as some of you. But I certainly see it, and find myself reaching for the handle more and more. And I am sad.

Anagrammy we're on the same page. I think divorce is also a preferable option in some circumstances, that was a good point. Nobody should stay in a marriage where one spouse is being domineering in any way and there is no room for mutual respect.

I was able to be an influence in the home (and even in the Church) that I would not have been if my children were left in the total care of a religious fanatic.

We had 3 children: a son, a daughter and another daughter.

The older daughter is a high achiever, valedictorian of her high school, university graduate on a full scholarship, foreign exchange student, developing in her career. My example to her was 2 chief points: 1) practical life trumps religion in both daily life and long term goals; 2) her self-esteem has no relation to her standing in the Church. She attends the LDS Church, but I am confident that it is on her terms (not the Church, bishop or Relief Society pressure, etc.). Mormon manipulations (what I call "Churchy games") have no hold on her.

Our son rebelled against all authority from the beginning. The more he resisted the more pressure his mother applied. My son has been homeless for the past decade.

Our younger daughter graduated high school and has done nothing since. She says with her mother, but never searches for employment or education. She has Maritime syndrome (no life goals or ambitions). She has no idea why she has no money to have fun or have dental work done.

Neither of these other children has any involvement with the Church. They each reacted to their mother's determination to drive a testimony into the heads with their own plan: son - defiance and aggression; daughter - apathy.

I wish they could have seen a positive way through our family life.

My greatest failing is that while my wife was abusing our children: physical confrontations over everything LDS (family prayer, family home evening, gospel standards, home teaching visits, etc.) and her endless preaching I was secretly glad that I wasn't the subject of her wrath.

My wife would hold teaching sessions with the children for 4, 5 even 6 hours at a time. I tried explaining to her that after a certain point the human mind loses the ability to comprehend more material. Fight (son) or flight (daughter) defences kick in (if not physically, intellectually).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2013 04:08PM by idleswell.

BKP made the statement in a talk that he believed it was impossible for a member of the chruch to be on the fence, with one foot in and one foot out. There are exceptions, of course, but I believe that it is one of the few things that he has said that is accurate.