Recently saw this and in one DVD section on the Jaredites he speaks of the Kinderhook Plates and how they provide the idea that the negro race came to America.

He states the flat area of the skeletal shin bone and the two skeletal holes near the elbow of skeletons found in the area are indigenous to the negro race. Showing some stone faces with 'negro' lips and nose shapes is another theory in the DVDs that the Kinderhook plates are indeed accurate in what Joseph Smith indicated the skeleton found was from Ham.

His DVDs are causing quite the stir in circles of believing mormons who are for the Heartland theory and against the MesoAmerican theory of the BofM people.

So many are buying these DVDs and sharing them with friends and neighbors.

Kinderhook plates have been discounted as 19th century creations even by the lds church.

Have you seen these DVDs and how can someone discount/refute these theories proposed by Wayne May?

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_one_an_alternate_re/

Brad Lepper and Deborah Bolnick were two scientist among about a half a dozen others whose sound bites were edited to make it appear they supported the idea of pre-Columbian Old World/New World contact.

Wayne May and some others have been involved in these practices, as has Rodney Meldrum. You can Google up Meldrum's claim that Bolnick--one of the premier DNA scientists in this country--wasn't misrepresented. It's a model demonstration of hornswaggle and snake oil salesmanship tactics.

Parts One, Two, and Three of this one address the issues--the links are easily followed--as does Simon Southerton's blog (http://www.simonsoutherton.blogspot.com The directory on the right will guide you to his discussions of Rodney Meldrum's "Heartland Model" of the BOM geography).

Per Lepper, Bolnick, et al:

>"The Lost Civilizations of North America" documentary is one in a long line of failed attempts to populate America’s ancient past with the denizens of lost tribes, lost cities, and, as its title indicates, lost civilizations.

Simon is taking a break from blogging on these issues because of a new job he's working really hard at, and he tells me he's understandbly fatigued by the futility of debating with such close-minded sorts. You can look at the comments section--134 at last count--where two RFM regulars engaged a particularly stubborn apologist (I've been in touch with both the whole time and occasionally offered some suggestions as well as keeping Simon apprised). It's a study in pathos if anyone has the patience to wade through it all, but the points debunking the claims are accurate and well-founded.

Wayne May is fond of claiming a number of proven 19th Century frauds such as the "Bat Creek Stone" and the "Newark Holy Stones" are "proof" of ancient Old World/New World contact.

How to counter such shinola? I see nothing wrong with calling May an obvious liar because his dissembling is easily proven. I note that he has even appeared here in Salt Lake on a broadcast TV show, "The Nephite Warrior."

There's a marked similarity with his methodology and that of the Bigfoot Hunters crowd.

A) May doesn't have "theories." In science, a theory is an explanation of observed phenomena built on hypotheses proven correct by evidence. They're not "here's a bunch of stuff I made up that has no supporting evidence, to try and justify my irrational beliefs."

B) the Kinderhook plates are proven fraud.

C) the "Heartland Model" is not a theory, either -- it's an imaginative and ultimately dishonest attempt to "fit" book of mormon fiction into existing landscapes, which of course has absolutely zero evidence to support it.

Not only are the Kinderhook plates a proven fraud, they were an intentional fraud.

This link is to Wayne May's nonsense about Ham's posterity in ancient America, beginning at 1:19.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJOY4OtCj7Y


He puts this garbage to the public at a time when the church is cracking down on others who promote older LDS racist teachings.
http://religiondispatches.org/racist-remarks-by-popular-byu-religion-professor-spark-controversy/

The Book of Mormon teaches that American Indians are cursed because of their ancestors, now along comes another Mormon to add another curse to them through Ham.

If the top 15 at COJCOLDS had an ounce of honesty and integrity they would crack down on individual members who propose racist ideas, but they won't because Wayne May is keeping tithing dollars flowing into Salt Lake.

Long before I ever heard of "Wayne May", having lived in Ohio and Missouri for many years, I came to the conclusion on my own,that the geography of the Book of Mormon was more less where Mr. May said it might be. The Mesoamerican model sort of made sense, but to many loose ends. As far as the idea that the Kinderhook plates were faked, (which they might have been), made me think it is also reasonable to postulate that the plates where genuine, then they were treated to look questionable and fraudulent. The idea that the Jaredites where descendants Ham doesn't bother me either and certainly is not racists. Joseph Smith, made a summary statement about what they were (supposedly) and deferred them to other authorities to disclose what they contained and what they revealed about the ancient history of the USA, which most likely would not have gone over well at the time. Its all about timing.

I came to the conclusion on my own that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. And there is no "might have been" about the Kinderhook plates, they were faked. Same with the Michigan relics that Wayne May is fond of promoting. Wayne May has no credibility. Come on cgw, if claims for evidence of the Book of Mormon rely on using known hoax artifacts, it should be fairly straight forward that the Book of Mormon is a hoax too.

Are you serious? Even the church has admitted that the Kinderhook plates are a hoax. That's why their current story is that "Joseph Smith never really tried to translate them."

The church admitted the Michigan relics are fake too.

First, apostle/scientist James Talmage said they were fake.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044043476324;view=1up;seq=5

Then the church gave all of these relics that it had ownership of, all 797 of them, to the Michigan Historical Museum which put them on display for the hoax that they are.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=110&dat=20031027&id=MX9OAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VEwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6768,5465013&hl=en

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/hal_mhc_mhm_fakes-fraud_04-14-2004_92005_7.pdf

That doesn't stop Wayne May though. He just keeps on preaching that they are Book of Mormon evidence. He is a flake, a nutcase. Mormons who believe him are letting themselves be deceived. I don't think the church cares though, anything to keep members and tithing dollars even if known falsehoods are told.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2018 12:42PM by mikemitchell.

Listening to some of May's ideas makes a questioning member begin to think twice about the historicity of the Book of Mormon and if there is a remote possibility of it is fact.

I have concluded that the more I see the scope of what members want to believe and are willing to purchase, the more I realize the money involved with such DVDs and lectures.

Thanks for responding with some common sense and links. I know that many of us need reassurance that what we have found out about the church is correct. It is based on a con with a pretty good charlatan at the onset.

The kinderhook plates were a confessed hoax which Joe Smith fell for. Where's the discernment ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2018 10:47AM by Dave the Atheist.

Let me get this straight . . . he's saying the Kinderhook plates
are real?? Even LDS inc. admitted they Kinderhook plates are
phony.

Oh, and the "negro lips" on carved faces? That's from the Olmec
heads. If you look at the Olmec heads, and then look at the
indigenous people STILL LIVING in the region where the heads were
produced, you will get your solution to why the heads have those
"negro" features.

I find it fascinating that those who want to "prove" the
historicity of the Book of Mormon can't even agree on where it
took place. May and Meldrum are adamant in their "heartland"
theory, while the Maxwell-Institute/FAIR crowd are equally
adamant with their LGT placing it all in meso-america.

I got burned out trying to warn people in the YouTube comments that Rod Meldrum and Wayne May can't be trusted. Some people have converted to the church because of their false information. Others have stayed in the church because of them.I keep pointing out that they are not scientists and here's what the scientists have to say. But no, the scientists are part of a conspiracy to keep the world from knowing that the Church is True!

It's hardly surprising that some of the BOM places line up with the area around where the Smith family lived:

Vernal Holley noted many similarities, even down to the place names.

Here's a map, followed by a list.

https://wheatandtares.org/2017/05/18/want-to-attack-the-vernal-holley-maps-want-to-defend-the-vernal-holley-maps-weve-got-you-covered/

Smith (or Smith and his co-authors) lacked imagination when it came to place names. :-D

Tom in Paris