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Posted by: blankstare ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:30AM

Did any of you take a tour of Carthage jail back in the day? I went in the late 60s to early 70s. Parents took us as kids.

Anyway in the gun battle room where Smith was shot, they used to show tourists the alleged blood of the profit. If memory serves, it was on the floor and protected by a sheet of glass. The tour guide would stop there and linger reverently.

It creeped me out as a kid. It strikes me now as creepier.

I went back a few years ago and it was gone and the guide didnt mention it.

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Posted by: me ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:42AM

They probably used forensic tools and determined that it was not blood.

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:46AM

As I recall, somewhere along the way someone did determine that the blood was from a much later date.

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Posted by: ConcernedCitizen ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 02:45PM

...probably just some cherry Kool-Aid some member's kid spilt back in the day.

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Posted by: ex_sushi_chef ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:50AM

"Don informed me that, no, that stain was not Hyrum’s blood. The historic sites restoration people are very careful with this sort of thing. The son of the owners of the jail from whom the Church acquired it early in the 20th century recalled that the floor had been replaced. The timbers of the floor were cut with a type of saw that did not yet exist during Joseph’s lifetime. So the stain that for so many years was under glass and a highlight of the tour was just that: a stain, and not Hyrum’s blood.

visited the jail, that was 1982, dont remember saw it or not....

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Posted by: East Coast Exmo ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:53AM

I remember asking about the blood stain during a visit in the early 80s. The guide said that they weren't supposed to talk about it anymore.

He also admitted that it couldn't have been Joseph's blood because it was in the wrong place. Joseph was shot near the window, and the stain was by the opposite wall.

I don't remember any more details.

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Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 10:14AM

Maybe where the wine bottle tipped over in the ruckus.

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Posted by: mrtranquility ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 12:31PM

Or it could be where Hyrum drooled some chewing tobacco while in his death throes.

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Posted by: icedtea ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 08:57AM

I visited there in 1988; the tour guides made a big deal out of the blood stains and referred to them as "blood of the martyrs." Everyone there "knew" it was Joseph's/Hyrum's blood.

Even then, I saw it more as an artifact of an more violent time in which gun battles and lethal fights in jail houses and official buildings were a reality. Getting rid of the blood stains, no matter whose they are, is like whitewashing history (something Mormonism is very good at). I think place history (as in the actual place where something happened) is important. Otherwise, as we move further in time from any given event, it's more likely that people will make up all kinds of myths and stories about the event and its setting. Having the "real thing" around, I think, keeps us straight (or straighter, anyway).

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Posted by: bezoar ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 10:03AM

Maybe it depends on the tour guide. I grew up in Illinois and went to Carthage several times. When I was younger I remember them proudly pointing out the blood stain. Several years later (probably the 1980s) they said they weren't allowed to mention it, but would proudly point it out if you asked. And it seems like everyone said it was Joseph's blood, but I could be mistaken.

I think it was later in the 1980s they did some extensive upgrades to the site - covered the yard around the building with tile, put in a statue or two. (And maybe a fountain??? Mormons seem to love their fountains.) I told my Dad they were trying to make it look like a shopping mall and I hated it. My Dad, who was in the stake presidency, thought I was hilarious.

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 10:10AM

We went in the late 90's and the Stains were part of the tour.

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Posted by: what me worry? ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 10:53AM

I recall that my family went (inadvertently) on June 27th 1974 (130th anniversay) and they made a big deal of the blood stains,
In 1992 we passed by and they didn't want to talk about it.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 11:00AM

This is similar to the thousands and thousands of "true pieces of the cross," the fraudulent Shroud of Turin, the dozens of holy foreskins of Jesus, etc.

If you don't have "holy relics," make them up. It makes the faithful swoon :)

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 12:32PM

When I was a teenager in the early '60's, my grandmother took a "Mormon history" bus tour from Salt Lake City to all the important eastern Mormon history sites.

I still remember the two things that impressed her the most - the hill Cumorah Pageant and the "Joseph Smith" blood stains at Carthage jail. She told us that "it's a miracle that God has preserved that man's blood all these years". She was probably repeating what they were telling people when they toured the jail.

I guess every religion has to have its "holy shrines".

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Posted by: thewhyalumnus ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 01:44PM

So, given the TBMness of my family and extended family, I went to Carthage Jail several times in the 80s and 90s. Every time, someone would point out the blood stains and every time the tour guide would confirm that it was the 'blood of the martyred', most likely both Hyrum and Joseph. It was always a somber and 'spiritual' moment.

In a private conversation with one of the old men, he confessed that this floor was replaced AFTER the Smiths were killed and BEFORE the Mo-Church purchased the jail. Their blood was NEVER preserved. Furthermore, several tour guides, in the past, were instructed to use ketchup to 'enhance the stain', so that the blood of the prophet would be remembered more poignantly.

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Posted by: Exdrymo ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 01:50PM

"As you can see, even the ants are filing by in solemn reverence...."

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 02:14PM

--Introduction: Ezra Taft Benson on the Horrible Fate That Reportedly Befell Assassins of Joseph and Hyrum Smith

During the Benson family reunion in the summer of 1979, our faithful clan took a reverent pilgrimage to the murder site of Joseph and Hyrum Smith at the Carthage, Illinois, jail.

During our visit to this hallowed place in Mormondum, I witnessed my grandfather’s serious and skeptical reaction to tales describing the gruesome final chapters in the allegedly haunted lives of many of the members of the mob who participated in the murder of the Smith boys in June of 1844.

To my surprise, Ezra Taft Benson thought it was all a buncha bunk.

--Touring Carthage Jail and Shuffling Across Hyrum's Blood

Led by my grandfather, we managed to squeeze our sizeable Benson caravan into the small, brick jailhouse.

Our group was led up the narrow staircase from the first floor to the second-story jail cell (actually a bedroom) where Joseph and Hyrum bought the farm by a small, chatty tour guide—a man who stuck close to my grandfather’s side and pointed him through the exhibits with a sober sense of earnestness.

At the top of the stairs, we entered the cramped room. I had heard that there were still blood stains from the Smiths somewhere on the floor and asked the guide where they were located.

Come to find out, the guide informed us that we were literally standing on top of them. He said that a blood stain was partially covered by a rug spread over the floorboards but was still visible if we looked carefully.

Peering down at my feet, I noticed a large, irregular, faded spot, outlined by a darker outer ring encased in the wood grain of the planks.

The guide said that this was Hyrum’s blood, spilled when he was shot in the face and fell to the floor, exclaiming, "I am a dead man."

The guide then turned to my grandfather and informed him that the Church had removed a sheet of plexiglass that had previously been used to cover the blood stain because, he said, the Church did not want to encourage its members to “worship” the blood of the prophets.

The guide said that unless visitors to Carthage Jail specifically asked about the location of the bloodstains, the guides did not point it out and even allowed people to unknowingly walk on it.

My grandfather nodded somberly.

--Drum Roll, Please: The Reported Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith

On the way down the stairs from our visit to the hallowed upper room where Joseph Smith had tried to save his own skin by jumping out a window while yelling a Masonic cry for help to Lodge members in the mob below, the guide began to solemnly speak to my grandfather about stories of ominous, horrible plagues supposedly visited by a wrathful God upon members of the murderous band who had killed the Lord’s chosen prophets.

By way of background, one web-wacko enthusiast of these post-martyrdom killer karma stories likened the fate of the doomed Carthage mob to that of plundering excavators who had violated the sanctity of the ancient tombs of the Pharaohs in search of treasure:

"The Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt were said to have mystic powers that surrounded them after death. When King Tut's tomb was discovered in the early 1900's, there was a curse that surrounded the tomb and brought death unto all who entered the tomb.

"So it was with Joseph Smith. A curse followed members of the mob that murdered Smith and his brother Hyrum.

". . . [M]any witnesses . . . swear that what they saw and heard is true concerning the sufferings of the mobocrats that participated in the murder of Smith and his brother Hyrum."

Gruesome accounts of mob members supposedly becoming marked men by a God who was a-gunnin' for 'em eventually appeared in a sensational book, compiled by N. B. Lundwall, entitled, The "Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith" [Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft Publishers, 1952, 365 pp.]

According to the claims in the book by a devout Mormon who supposedly encountered a doomed mob member who had participated in the killings of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, the murderer was visited with horrific physical afflictions:

"I noticed that the lower part of one ear was gone, a part of the left side of his nose had rotted away, and there were other repulsive sores on his face. He showed me his hands. There was very little solid flesh on them. I expressed my sympathy for him and he said his feet were worse than his hands. I asked him what had caused all this trouble and he replied: 'I don't know unless it was a curse God had placed on me.' He said some men had told him that was it, because he was with the men who killed Joe Smith, the Mormon Prophet. 'I guess that was the main reason I drifted out here; I wanted to know how the Mormons made out without Joe Smith to lead them'"

(Lundwall, "The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith," pp. 297-98).

Another witness to the heavenly plagues that were said to have befallen Joseph and Hyrum Smith’s assassins described the physical torture dished out upon another mob member:

"About the year 1892, when I was eighteen years of age . . . an old man by the name of Brooks moved into[our] neighborhood . . . The old man used to come to my father's home, sit on the porch and talk to my father . . . [about] Joseph Smith the Prophet. On one particular evening after my father had talked about Joseph Smith, the old man . . . said: ‘ . . . I saw the last bullet shot onto the old boy.' After Mr. Brooks had gone to his cabin, my father said: 'No wonder he is a miserable old soul. If he saw the last bullet shot into Joseph Smith, he was in that mob. If he was in that mob, it has been prophesied that he will suffer all kinds of torment, his limbs shall rot off of his body and he will not have the courage to take his own life.'

". . . [A]fter this conversation I took particular notice of the old man and how he suffered. The old man had a belt which he wore around his waist which the son would take off, then beat the old man with it just to hear him scream and when beating him, the son would laugh and profane and seemed to enjoy it. All of this I saw.

"The old man was crippled and could walk with only the aid of two sticks---one in each hand and without aid of these he was totally helpless and unable to walk. The cause of this crippled condition was unknown to me. The son would drive the old man up the coal mine dump about three or four hundred yards from their cabin like he would drive cattle and fill sacks with coal, tie the sacks on the old man's back and drive him back to the cabin. The old man would beg his son not to fill the sacks too full of coal. If he would not go fast enough the son would whip him with his belt which he had taken from the father before going for the coal.

"They . . . then moved to Coalville . . . While living here his toes rotted off his feet. Later, a Dr. Cannon . . . who owned a ranch in Weber canyon . . . made arrangements with this old man and his son to start a chicken ranch on Dr. Cannon's premises, on to which the father and son moved. . . . Dr. Cannon made inquiry concerning the disappearance of the chickens on the farm and the old man replied that 'The skunks had eaten them up.' To which Dr. Cannon replied: 'You are the biggest skunk.'

"The son would often leave his father for three or four days and sometimes a week without food. I was up to my brother-in-law's ranch one fall, in November, when an eight inch snow fell, the weather clearing up in the afternoon, and dropping to zero weather by night. My brother-in-law and I took over an extra quilt and some supper to the old man and also chopped wood which we piled close to the stove so that he could handily keep the fire going during the night without getting out of bed.
After returning home later in the night, I heard him screaming. I awoke my brother-in-law and he said: 'Don't take notice of him; he always screams like that.' When we got up the next morning, we looked towards his cabin and saw that the house was gone. We immediately went to where his cabin had been and found it had burned to the ground during the night. All the old man's clothes had burned off of him and he was burned all over his body from his feet to the top of his head. He was alive and lay curled up in ashes of the burned cabin, trying to keep warm.

"We secured some quilts and with a team and sleigh we took him to Peoa where we found the son. The people of Peoa took up a collection which amounted to five dollars, gave it to the son and told him to go to Park City for the particular medicine he was directed to buy. With the money the son bought liquor and became drunk and did not return for four days. The old man died on the fourth day after he was burned, before his son returned . . . The son was ordered out of the county and he left immediately for parts unknown.

(ibid., pp. 292-93).

Finally, another devout Mormon laid out--in stark-and-hark detail--the supposed horrible fate prepared for yet another hapless prophet-murdering mob member:

"One man, a 'Jack Reed,' an old man who was respected in the valley . . . said that he was a member of the mob who martyred the prophet. He was about fifteen years old at the time. He said he took his gun and marched proudly to Carthage and took part in the killing of the two prophets . . .

"About the last of September I heard that Jack Reed was very sick of a strange ailment. He was taken ill in a few days after having made the statement that he took part in the affair at Carthage---but no one had told me of his sickness until I heard it from one of my Indian friends who said he had worms in his flesh. I determined to see him if I could and try to get him to verify the statement he had made . . .

"The man had no family . . . . I asked . . . if . . . Mrs. Whitmore and myself [would be allowed] to visit Mr. Reed. [I was told] that Mr. Reed was a sight that no white woman could be allowed to look upon.

"He was literally eaten alive by worms. His eyeballs had fallen out, the flesh on his cheeks and neck had fallen off and though he could breathe he could take nourishment only through an opening in his throat . . . and [I was told that] 'Pieces of flesh as large as my two hands have fallen off from different parts of his body.'

"The sick man's farm was given to the white men who attended him in the first of his ailment. Finally when they could no longer endure the ordeal the Indians were called in to pour water into his throat and give him whatever other attention they could and these received the sick man's bunch of horses for their pay. When he finally passed, the Indians carried out the awful remains by the four corners of the blanket upon which he had lain for weeks, and lowered that into the box the white had prepared. The blanket was tucked in over him and the box quickly nailed up and put into the deep grave as soon as possible. No funeral was held.

". . . [I gathered that a] bunch of enemies were heading a petition against me because I was a polygamist. . . .

"One called 'Jack Longstreet' became Reed's first attendant in company . . . To these men Reed confessed that his participation in the murder of the Prophets was the cause of his affliction. He said to Longstreet: 'It is the Mormon curse that is upon me. I cannot live---I must utterly rot before I die.'

"He said that Brigham Young had pronounced that curse upon all that mob, and he had known thirteen of them to die just as he was dying. But he had lived so long and had passed the unlucky number thirteen, that he had thought to escape the curse. He charged his attendants to never do anything against the Mormons, to be their friends, or said he, 'You may suffer the Mormon curse.' Longstreet related . . . this confession of Reed's as a warning . . . and declared that he himself would not dare to raise a hand against them. I don't think he ever did."

(ibid., pp. 294-96).

As we followed the Carthage Jail tour guide and Ezra Taft Benson down the stairs, the guide emphasized to my grandfather in no uncertain terms that these graphic accounts supposedly detailing the fate of the Smiths’ murderers were not to be believed.

To the contrary, the guide said that many of the members of the mob who were responsible for the death of Mormonism’s two most prominent founders actually went on to very successful business and political careers.

Well, I'll be.

My grandfather again nodded approvingly, scowling slightly as he listened and voicing his agreement with the guide’s views.

All of which I found quite interesting.

This was the same Ezra Taft Benson who believed unswervingly in the literal truthfulness of Book of Mormon tales vividly describing, say, the gruesome fate of a premier prophet persecutor named Korihor--who was struck dumb through the power of God, reduced to abject beggary and eventually trampled to death for his wickedness.

The same held true for the sinful Book of Mormon Lamanites who because of their wicked, adulterous and murderous ways, were said to have been relegated by a vengeful God to darkened loathsomeness, marked by the finger of an accusing Maker with the curse of a brown skin and consigned to wear loincloths, to shave their heads and to stare into a bleak and miserable future.

Woe, woe and double-whammy woe.

--The Moral of the Story for Would-Be Prophet Killers

Thus saith the Mormon God, if you’re going to kill the Lord’s prophets and other anointed ones, you'd be much better off doing it in modern times--you know, when there is an actual, historical paper trail that can be used to document what actually happened in your life following your murderous deeds.

As luck could have it, the evidence might end up showing you became a successful financier or a powerful elected public official.

Whatever you do, don’t be unlucky or dumb enough to choose murderous, wicked ways in the hazy, distant past—whereafter spine-tingling scripture stories can be invented and passed down from generation to generation, describing to wide-eyed little children in Sunday School how you were horribly punished by God for what you did.

That's not good because, with no recent paper trail, there's no way for anyone to prove any different.

"Heh, heh, heh, cackle, cackle, cackle . . ."

(Lo, what's that? Behold, the creeped-out voice of Vincent Price, accompanied by Michael the "Thriller" Jackson and his Tap-Dancing Troupe of Bug-Eyed Corpses):

"Darkness falls across the land,
The Prophet's blood against you stands,
Your skin falls off, your sperm's a dud,
Your house is gone, God sent a flood.

"And whosoever shall be found
With gun in hand for shooting down my prophet
Shall face the hounds of Hell,
And rot a lot, with feet that smell.

"The foulest stench is in the air,
Your eyeballs gone, and so's your hair,
Your ears fall off, I curse your womb,
An unmarked grave will be your tomb.

"And even though it's all a lie,
Your body starts to shiver,
For no mere Mormon can resist
God messin' with your liver.

"Heh, heh, heh, cackle, cackle, cackle, HEH, HEH, HEH, CACKLE, CACKLE, CACKLE, HEH, HEH, HEH, CACKLE, CACKLE, CACKLE . . ."




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2014 05:42PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: en passant ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 02:42PM

My dad took us there in 1959. I was 10 years old.

We climbed a narrow staircase to the second story and entered a good-sized room at the top of the stairs. It was not a jail cell with respect to how we normally perceive a jail cell.

There was a small pane of glass in a frame that was screwed to the wooden floor, somewhere near the middle of the room. It was about 6" X 8" as I recall. The guide pointed to it and said it was a blood stain from Joseph Smith. I looked closely and felt disappointed that it did not look like blood. In fact, I really couldn't see a stain at all and said so. My older brother assured me it was because the stain had faded after 100 years.

Many years later I learned that Joe opened the door to the room and shot off a pistol into the crowd on the stairs. The guide didn't tell us that.

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 06:37PM

en passant Wrote:
> Many years later I learned that Joe opened the
> door to the room and shot off a pistol into the
> crowd on the stairs. The guide didn't tell us
> that.

That's because true "martyrs" do not shoot at their assailants!

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Posted by: get her done ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 05:18PM

When I visited there was a square of glass over the blood stain to preserve it.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 05:39PM

my parents went in 1970, came back and repeated that Faith Promoting BS story to us kids.

...... Thanks a lot, "dad", you brainless MORmON fuck up. Too bad that you are not still alive to see all the horrendous damage that
your beloved POS MORmON church has done to your children and their families, but don't worry, I constantly point it out to your celestial bride who is still alive.

But It has to be admitted, that fake blood did mark the spot for Joe's best and only real revelation ever.

is there Joe SMith blood on the floor near the pearly gates too ?

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:01PM

The story's a bigger mess than the floor. There was a cell in the basement, but Smith was rooming upstairs. Was it a jail or a bed & breakfast? Either Smith and company had copies of the BoM for study or a bottle of wine and a loaded sidearm. Suddenly there was a scuffle at the door involving a flurry of hands and bullets. Hyrum formally announced his passing, and Joe flew out the window like a western bar fight extra. His lifeless body was poked and prodded at by men without faces.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2014 07:06PM by donbagley.

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Posted by: ConcernedCitizen ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:12PM The stain was actually an opium-based cough medicine used by Hyrum; as he had been using the preparation for quite a while by then. Later, Church leaders changed the narrative to show that the "sacred blood of the Prophet and his brother was spilled by the apostate-swine murderers; fueled by the flames of Hell!!",fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18p5job4bhj1wjpg.jpg

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 07:56PM

ex_sushi_chef - since when does anything that has anything to do with the CULT care if something did or did not actually exist at the time they say it did?

Let's see now.....Horses, wheat, steel, certain types of saws etc........

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Posted by: ex_sushi_chef ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 08:48PM

church and gospel arent the same perhaps....

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Posted by: MossyBucket ( )
Date: December 11, 2014 09:18PM

At least this was Einstein's theory, and confirmed by Woody Allen.

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Posted by: Joseph Fischer ( )
Date: August 16, 2017 06:54PM

Greetings I want to let you all be aware that the Blood Stain that was in the Carthage Jail in Carthage Illinois was not Joseph Smith's blood stain but I'm quite certain that it most likely was his Brother Hyrum's blood stain or it could have also been John Taylor's blood that was also in the Carthage jail cause you remember that Joseph ran towards the Window and he stopped at the Window sill curb was shot another time then he fell from the 2nd story Window then his body hit the side of the well and later died

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Posted by: East Coast Exmo ( )
Date: August 16, 2017 07:21PM

Did you even read the posts in this thread? The current floor is not the original. Any stains on the existing floor have nothing to do with the events of Joseph Smith's killing.

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