I don't think your BF is stable enough to make serious decisions or commitments. A.A. will probably be better for him than LDS. I am inclined to think that his entering his 30s is probably a significant event for him: it's just that he's going about it the wrong way. And his having extreme spiritual experience(s) and/or visions is a very loud alarm bell, along with his remarks that he has come to some kind of absolute & profound spiritual or philosophical truth. All of this is very, very disturbing.

A.A. will introduce him to God ("Higher Power") in a generalized, non-theological way,* get and stay sober, and simplify his life and this thinking. People who are very intellectual and/or intelligent often find this difficult, seeing it as "beneath them," but I think this is what he needs, based on what you've shared.

It's not uncommon for relationships to fall apart when people get sober, so anticipate this as a possibility. The "rules" of the relationship have changed from strange & chaotic to stable, and sweethearts of alcoholics sometimes don't make the necessary adjustments. Something YOU need to figure out, Bear236, is "Why have I put up with an alcoholic/drug abuser all these years?" Just as LDS is meeting some hidden need of BF, he has been meeting your needs in some probably unhealthy way. (I'm kind of brutal there, sorry, but I think it needed to be said.)

But when all is said and done, he's a hurt & needy young man, and he feels that LDS will heal his hurts and satisfy his needs. Not good.

*I sobered up in A.A. at 30 and have 37 years continuous sobriety. After about 4 years there, I decided to explore things more theologically, and converted to Christianity. I caution your BF against making any religious or relationship commitments for at least a year, maybe more. He needs to be clean & sober and to simplify his life and relationships. Look into Al-Anon for yourself, too. Good luck, Bear236!

I am glad someone started another thread. And it sounds like they have some of the same concerns that I have.

This is going to sound harsh, but perhaps the Mormons are doing Bear236 a favor.

There are so many red flags in the little she has told us about her boyfriend.

He is an ex-drug addict who relapses during the current relationship, and she stays with him. He is now drinking and smoking pot, but that is okay, because it isn't the previous drug that he was addicted to.

An ex-drug addict who is trying to get his life together is not going to be helped by drinking and smoking pot. That really is not an improvement for the addict or those around the addict trying to support the addict's sobriety.

Again, from what little Bear236 has told us, I think this guy has serious mental health problems. At best, he is always uneasy and depressed. He suddenly does some deep dive into "logic," and announces that he has "figured out the world." That is a huge red flag there. It is grandiose and illogical. Further, anyone who really has figured out the world would not be going into Mormonism.

His statements about Satan coming down to get him and his having to run to God, sounds quite paranoid and delusional. It makes me wonder if he isn't hearing voices.

Bear236, I think that you are selling yourself short when you describe him as so intelligent and all these things that he is talking about are so above your head. I get the impression that this guy isn't even college educated. Doctors, lawyers, physicists, engineers, etc. can all explain their work in ways that the average person could understand.

I suspect that the reason that Bear236 can't understand what her boyfriend is saying and it all goes over her head, isn't because he is so brilliant. I think that he probably just isn't making any sense. He is probably using pseudo-intellectual sounding phrases that he strings together in some manic mis-mash. It all might sound important, because of the way he says it. But if you were to break it all down, it is probably nonsense.

Religiosity (diving into religion with a fervor), drug use, and weird intellectual forays that result in "figuring out the world" could all point toward some serious mental health problems.

Like I said earlier, if the Mormons take him away from you, they might be doing you a huge favor. But you won't benefit from that favor, unless you can get the bottom of why you put up with all this craziness for all this time.

Your remarks resonate very strongly with me. Brought up in Christian Science ("the Cult for the Cultured") I was very familiar with (and adept at) sounding intellectual, profound, and sophisticated when my ideas were shallow at best, and wacko at worst.

A.A. for the BF.
Al-Anon for Bear236.

Sobriety. Abstinence from all substances. BF to K.I.S.S. ("Keep It Simple, Stupid"). And maybe a therapeutic sabbatical for the relationship.

Just hope they don't waste their young adulthood like I did mine.

I agree with you both. Mormonism is but one red flag in this relationship. I would be very concerned about a potential spouse who has abused hard drugs. That kind of problem doesn't go away easily, and 2 or 3 years sober isn't enough time to evaluate if the problem has truly been resolved. A drug or alcohol addict can give you years of misery, especially once children enter the equation.

From Bear's description, the young man in question seems like a rudderless boat. He doesn't know who he is. This is not a good prognosis for a successful relationship.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 08:32AM by summer.

Hello all!

My boyfriend is really a great guy. The concern isnt drugs & alchohol that is in the past, he does not drink and smoke often, its the religion that has taken away my boyfriend. Anyways, for new years we decided to go camping and we had to leave early. On our way up to Monterey Bay he lashed out bad. Then he started reading the book of mormon very loud & creepy. It went on for almost two hours!!!! I kept asking him to PLEASE STOP! he wouldn't, he continued reading and singing paragraphs from the book of Mormon. He eventually got out of the car and got on the ground to pray. Let me tell you I lived a scary movie. Long story short a few more episdoes happended and we headed home the next day. He is seeing things & hearing things. He wont admit hes hearing things but he told me he is seeing things. I took him to the hospital last night where he is being evaluated. There is much more to what happenend in the last 48 hours but I am so exhausted I dont feel like telling the whole story. Mormonism has absolutely cause all of this depression & mental illness for my boyfriend.It caused him to feel guilty for anything "bad" he has done in his life, as little as drinking coffee. ITS A HORRIBLE RELIGION.

I'm glad that you got him to a hospital, Bear. Something is seriously wrong. Hopefully he will get an appropriate diagnosis and follow the treatment plan.

My previous advice to you still stands. Saying that his previous problems are "in the past" -- the past in this case is not that long ago, not in the scheme of things. Not when you have decades ahead of you. Addiction can be very hard to conquer -- addicts can go through long periods of sobriety, lasting months or even years, and then can fall off of the wagon all over again. This cycle can continue for decades. Your boyfriend *may* have successfully kicked his habit. MAY. Only time will tell.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 01:03PM by summer.

Bear,
I won't contribute to giving you advice because I don't think I know enough about the facts of the situation to do that. I do however hope that if it is a treatable condition, he gets the help he needs. Giving up on a relationship is not easy and although it might be the choice I would make (who's to say) I think it is important to support you in what you are doing. Mormonism may contribute to the drama associated with his mental illness, but I am not qualified to identify if he is mentally ill or rather more involved in medicating himself than you are aware. Either way I wish you both the best and hope that you will both consult professionals with the ability to diagnose and protect each of you. My thoughts are with you.

I was going to post back in your first thread too, then it closed.

Caffiend mentioned:

>> his remarks that he has come to some kind of absolute & profound spiritual or philosophical truth. All of this is very, very disturbing. >>

I had a friend who had these ‘epiphanies’ too; they were results of a psychotic break. Do your realize that while ‘pot’ is generally a fairly benign drug, it can be a terrible trigger for people who suffer from schizophrenia? New research has made a recent link in this regard. That is what I wanted to point out when the other thread closes. I am concerned for your bf. He might need help, and the mo’s will not be good for him, obviously. Please look into getting him some help from qualified people. My friend became completely ‘normal’ once he was diagnosed and put on medication. Wish you all the best, and your friend would benefit from you helping him to get the help he needs. With mild schizophrenia, quitting the pot might even be all he needs. :)

Sorry, didn't see your post while I was writing mine. You took him to the hospital ...good. They can help him. And get him off that pot ...benign for others, but not for someone like him.

Here's some more info about pot use by schizophrenics.

It's not about smoking a joint and going mental, it's about prolonged use building up in the system and aggravating the condition after general use. Your bf is probably one of those predisposed people who should not be using pot. If he can be made aware of this, he might choose to make a better choice (maybe).


from: http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

"People with such a vulnerability should avoid cannabis like the plague," he said.

Without the effects of the drug, such a person might live their whole life without ever experiencing mental health problems. It has been estimated, for example, that between 8% and 13% of people that have schizophrenia today would never have developed the illness without exposure to cannabis.

Professor Castle compared the effect to feeding sweets to a diabetic. While high sugar content foods did not cause too many problems for most people in the short term, they could be catastrophic for diabetics.

He said there was an accumulative effect when it came to cannabis use and schizophrenia. Those who used the drug more than once a week were more prone to needing hospitalisation and often suffered other associated problems such as the breakdown of relations with their family, isolation, crime and violence.

* Cannabis impacts on neurotransmitters that regulate how arousal and stress are managed in the brain. Cannabis takes a long time to metabolise, and can quickly build up to high levels in the body. Once you get to this point, there is a real risk of depression or schizophrenia being triggered.

Avoiding marijuana after developing schizophrenia also helps reduce relapse rates.

Aside from the substance addiction issues, there are some huge red flags here.

-- He ignored your requests to stop reading the BofM and escalated his behavior instead.
-- He lashed out at you.
-- His behavior scared you to the point you felt like you were in a scary movie.
-- He sees things & hears voices (when he's sober!).

This is NOT a "really great guy." What you described is NOT how a mentally healthy person behaves. And, as bad as Mormonism may be, it does not cause people to experience auditory and visual hallucinations -- mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder do. Your BF's behavior cannot be blamed on the church. It also sounds like he's being verbally abusive to you. Please check out http://verbalabuse.org/ and http://outofthefog.net/

You deserve a relationship with a stable, mentally-healthy person. Compare the wheel of domestic violence at http://www.domesticviolence.org/violence-wheel/
with this one of a healthy relationship at http://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/healthy-relationships/ (from the National Domestic Violence Hotline). Be honest: which one more closely resembles your relationship with BF?

Best of luck and we are here for you.

I'd just like to point out that millions of people are able to get effective treatment for mental illness and maintain healthy relationships. I don't think we on this board remotely know enough to advise Bear to either stay or go.

No, we don't -- which is why I didn't advise her to break up with him, but to get more information so she can decide for herself if she's in a healthy relationship or not. Often, people who are in unhealthy, toxic relationships have gotten used to the behavior or have never known anything else, so it feels "normal" to them.

I still stand by my observation that a man who lashes out at his gf, has hallucinations, and scares her a lot is not, in his present condition, a great bf. The decision is hers to make, but at least, with information, she can make more informed choices.

I agree about the OP having taken up with a needy man. This will not serve her. Life, married life, any life is hard enough with a _competent_ partner. Bear236, you will be much worse off if you are having to support the psyche of your SO as well. Look back on the boyfriends you've had in the past and ask if these were men who could stand on their own in life or needed an emotional prop. If you typically chose unstable or immature men it would be good to snap out of it now. At least become aware. If you need to be needed become aware of that. Best,stop dating men who "need" you. I say don't even date them, because people slide from marriage into dating easily.

"Bear" in mind, Bear236, that alcoholics are often the most charming of people. (I am!) For some reason, that nasty alcoholic issue (gene, personality flaw, whatever) seems to latch on to people who are extrovert, intelligent, charming, alert, etc.

Then it ruins them.

But it also hurts those people around them. Their own families, for starters, because those are the people who love them the most. Then their friends and lovers. Also employers, peers, others. Their lives become unmanageable (A.A. Step #1), and they exhaust, wound, hurt, and even destroy the people who would step in and help.

If he has schizoaffective disorder (or something similar) he has a life-long condition, and will have to have his therapy monitored constantly. Such people are often tempted to discontinue treatment. Watch "A Beautiful Mind," then check out:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/DrJohnson/story?id=126426

And also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash,_Jr.

Several people have suggested that psycho-pharmaceutical therapy may help. I say you still have a very steep learning curve, and you probably have little idea of what you're in for.

Sorry to be the Cassandra of Doom. Your challenge is to integrate critical thinking (head) with your love for him (heart). In your imagination, fast-forward yourself ten years. You are "now 35 years old" and married to this man. "Think back" to the year 2015: What do you wish, as of 2025, you had done differently back in 2015?

Listen to caffiend. Mental health problems never get any easier to deal with as the years go on. Save yourself pain in the future and move on. I have sympathy for people with mental health issues(I have suffered with anxiety and depression my whole life), but I also know that I have caused pain to everyone in my life because of it. If only I could go back in time and do things differently. I'm sorry that my husband and children have had to deal with my depression for so long. I fear that I have caused the depression my son now suffers from..genetic or otherwise. If you can find the strength to move on please do. Not being heartless, just practical.

It sounds to me like there is mental illness at play here. Mormonism does not make people hear voices etc. Also addicts and alcoholics often got their addictions because they were self medicating..
They are also known to turn to religion in hopes of solving their problems. I would be careful here.

This does not seem to be about mormonism. This guy is showing symptoms of adult onset mental illness. I'm glad he's in the hospital, but this could be a life long challenge that has lots of "scary movie" moments.

I promise everyone this has to do with this mormonism. He started reading it and learning this about four weeks ago. Ever since then his personinality has changed dramatically (very robotic like) his looks, it's like his soul is gone. He's always been a great person, this has turned him into someone he's not. He's never been abusiv! He's never even raised his voice to me. The missionaries and people who he works with (Mormons) have been telling him he needs to live a certain way- by all the rules of mormoisn. His co worker told him he needs to move away from me because we're not married. They are telling him the "right" things to do and make him feel like everything he's done or is doing in his life is a sin. And it has made him feel guilty about even drinking coffee or tea. Sometbing he use to enjoy every morning. The other day when things were tough he told me he can't wait to get out of this and enjoy a cup of coffee. Mormons believe their are perfect. No one is perfect, you can't live a good life pretending your perfect. anyways, pot is not the issue, he hasn't smoked or drank in months, I was just giving background, thank you for all your feed back. And if anyone has anything comforting to say to him to get out of this and feel better about not continuing mormonism please share :) thank you

Because the two events coincided does not mean that the one caused the other. Religion generally doesn't cause real hallucinations, but hallucinations often cause religiosity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 07:34PM by Devoted Exmo.

with your boyfriend AFTER he's out of the hospital, I echo Richard Packham's excellent advice, found here:

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

Many years ago, when the Internet was in its infancy, I printed it out for a dear friend who had been lured by the siren of Mormonism. She was shocked at what was expected of a convert and did not join.

Wishing you and BF the best,
Saree

Obviously the stress from experiencing Mormonism is affecting him, how could it not. He needs to get away from them ...of course he does. But trust the people here when they tell you there is more than that going on for your bf. If you want to help him, get him out of the cult, but also get him a mental health assessment. Some of us are older and have seen a lot of life. You bf is showing signs of mental instability ...there is no shame in this, it is not an uncommon issue. But he needs to get diagnosed and treated. And obviously he needs to get out of Mormonism ...that's a given.

Keep a journal so you have a record of how badly Mormonism messed up your BF. He can read it later to see how unhealthy his new religion is.

It can also serve as a cautionary tale to others.

That's a great idea!

It's hard to understand a complicated real life situation on a comment board.

I could be wrong, because of projecting my own situation...but what I hear Bear236 saying is:

She knows her guy is imperfect, but nevertheless ***newsflash***she loves that guy, in all his glorious human imperfection. Loving him is her choice. The BF has *not* been abusive/controlling in his behavior to her prior to mormonism. He is not abusive, his authentic self does have attractive traits, and she loves him. His imperfections are not the problem. Mormonism is the problem. I am hearing her say that her beloved boyfriend has disappeared (though his body is still around). The guy she knew is mostly gone, there is no "There" there anymore, his personality has been kidnapped, locked away in some dark hidden corner of the soul (if you will). I can relate. For me, after the"Mormonization" of my son's formerly utterly delightful human personality, it sort of feels like he wouldn't necessarily pass the Turing Test any longer. You feel like, "where in the h*** has he gone and what is this strange thing now operating his physical body?" (as an aside, I have always assumed that something to do with this whole area is the explanation for non-personalities of some well known mormons...like Mittens...or Tom Cruise the Scientologist's strange persona...what do you all think?).

It's what donbagley wrote on the original thread:
"...you are losing him to an evil seductress. It feeds the ego while it consumes the soul. In the end, an obedient husk is all that remains. Mormonism is a body snatcher."

I have experienced the same personality change with my son, first hand. It's not hyperbole, it is a real thing. I guess maybe some of you have not experienced this.

Anyway, that is what I am hearing. And I very much agree with Bear236's adamant statement: "IT'S A HORRIBLE RELIGION". I hereby wave an imaginary Sparkling Scepter of Solidarity and validate this statement, Bear236. That has been my experience of mormonism as well.

Another important point that deserves emphasizing is that Bear236's boyfriend is completely dependent on predatory Mormons for his paycheck right now, that's a huge problem. I wish there was a way to get your BF away from the toxic work environment, to find him new employment. As long as he is working for them, this situation is going to drag on.

It is possible that your BF has some kind of pre-existing mental health issues, less than robust mental health, which might be further complicating the situation. I don't know. It sounds like you know the guy and you don't think so. Your eyewitness impression is that the mormons at work, preaching their deeply unsound and psychologically unhealthy ideology, are causing him extreme psychological distress, it has brought on an acute emergency situation.

I agree that it is good that the BF is now being seen by medical personnel (non-mormon thank goodness). Unfortunately, the medical professionals treating him probably don't understand or have any expertise with individuals under the influence of cult tactic groups. Americans commonly do not understand it or even believe undue influence really exists. So it's within the realm of possibility that the medical diagnosis/treatment may be befuddled as a result. I hope not, of course, I hope it is going great. I just offer that as an idea to keep in mind, if the treatment doesn't go well.

One idea: You might watch the Smoke Filled Room Experiment on You Tube to see a quick but instructive example of the power of social influence. Maybe your boyfriend would even be interested at some point in looking at some of the scholarly work that has been done in the area of social influence. People can be made to believe absolutely anything, no matter how crazy or unhealthy. There is a good body of work if you look into it, it's really interesting, and helpful for anyone to know about. The Asch Conformity Experiment. The Stanley Milgram Experiment. The Stanford Prison Experiment. The work of Cialdini, his book: Influence. Lots of work has been done in this area of social psychology...if you're interested. Or maybe read about Economic Cults, such as multi-level marketing. This American Life just did a piece (podcast format) on a scam business called Wake Up Now, that is really eye opening. If I have time I'll post it in another thread. Sometimes a victim can clearly see how cults work if you don't attack their cult but show them the ridiculousness of another cult tactic group. Then they connect the dots back to how they are being manipulated, that their own group is a coercive fraud.

I don't know...it's a very hard situation, and this is probably all way too much information for you. Really my main message is that I understand what you are saying, you are not losing your mind, I have experienced something similar, as do other people who have lost loved ones to cult tactic groups. Personality changes can and do happen. I just wanted to speak up, because I am the one who suggested you fill in more information, and I think the comments on this thread are discounting your take on the situation too much.

Sorry if it seems we've ganged up on you. But read the posts carefully and tuck them away in your mind for reconsideration later. And resist the temptation to go shopping for the advise you want.

Think of the issues as a fire. A fire needs heat (ignition), fuel, and oxygen. Remove or reduce any one of these, and the fire (combustion) is reduced, or goes out.

Mormonism is one of the components to your "fire." So you do want to curtail or eliminate it. The problem is, the other components (drug/marijuana use, psychological issues) will continue to feed it. THC (Cannibis' active ingredient" does linger in the brain, and may well have been a factor triggering the psychotic episodes. And watch out for the emotional pain of these episodes triggering a desire to drink or smoke dope. See how one negative factor interplays with another? Put in his native psychiatric issues, and you have another dangerous variable.

Mormonism, alone, is not likely to be the problem. But anything that reduces this in his life can only help. But logic and cold facts may be insufficient. There is a wealth of critical ("anti-") material out there. Suggest that you read it together, as a couple, and discuss it. Perhaps you can sit on a couch with a laptop, and go through pages on mormonthink.com. Make it a "date," and tell him you don't want to go out for pizza or a movie or anything unless you've spent at least a half hour together reading it. Thus, you're combing the positive experience of time with you with the assimilation of anti-Mormon information. It's a long shot, but it just might work.

Good luck!

I dont feel ganged up on :). It's hard to explain exactly what is going on. It's a lot right now and I appreciate ALL of the comments. I love hearing it all. But he is currently in the hospital being evaluated, so there is a step I get to visit him for an hour so I will see how he is when I get there. I am trying to get him out of this cult, I'm trying my hardest,
I love the idea read stuff together. I will see if he wants to do that.

THank you

He has problems. Major problems.

It seems to me that Mormonism is probably a minor component of these.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 07:48PM by matt.

Here are stories organized into that might help your bf avoid mormonism.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/topics_by_subject.htm

And remember, a mental health assessment will do no harm if there is nothing wrong with him mentally. If there is a problem, they don't lock you up anymore ...they treat you with meds, like someone with high blood pressure. Mental health issues don't preclude someone from living a productive life as long as they are treated. It's when they go untreated that the long term problems can arise.

Read the topics about Mormonism, and I wish you both the best in overcoming this struggle. Good luck, and let us know how it is going by posting here. We want to see you succeed with this.

Good lord, he's got problems much deeper than just being interested in Mormonism.

Tread carefully dear. You can help him without marrying him or even getting more deeply involved in your relationship. He sounds like he needs a friend more than anything else.

But that doesn't mean that you need to sit by and be emotionally abused like that, and what he did by reading that book FOR HOURS?! was definitely not exactly respectful of your wishes.

Aside from the psychological issues your bf might have, I STRONGLY recommend he read the following two links.

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm
http://cesletter.com

He is still new to Mormonism and you still have a high probability of getting him out of it before he is fully brainwashed. I suggest printing both of these and telling him you can be supportive of his decision to join Mormonism as long as he dies it FULLY informed.

Get him to read these! I think most "converts" would ditch Mormonism if only they had read the information contained in these pages.

Bear 236,
So, your boyfriend was having a psychotic break as I suspected. I understand that you aren't accepting of the advice that the fundamental problem here isn't Mormonism. It is his underlying psychiatric problems which probably drove him to seek out Mormonism about 4 weeks ago. Moromonism is really just another symptom of his overall problem.

My previous advice to you was more centered on you and what I thought might be good for you. I am going to change gears a bit.

You aren't helping your boyfriend. Your insistence that this is all about Mormonism and not about his psych problems is a great disservice to your boyfriend. He is seriously ill. He is probably schizophrenic or bipolar with manic episodes. He was full on psychotic during your trip to Monterey.

He is going to need care. He will probably need to be on medications. The road ahead is going to be complicated at best. If he keeps getting messages from you that it was just the Mormonism and once he gets away from that, he'll be fine, you are giving him a dangerous (perhaps even deadly) message. If you are successful, he may decide that he doesn't need meds or to follow his doctors' advice. If he gives up Mormonism, he will be fine.

In a psychotic state he could hurt himself, you or someone else. You stated in another thread that you wanted to be drinking wine with your drug addict boyfriend. That was about you, not him. If he is on any meds for his disorder, the bottles will probably all say "Do not mix with alcohol."

Your boyfriend is delusional and psychotic, but you have to let go of some of your fixed delusions about all this being due to Mormonism. Listen to what the doctors and nurses tell you at the hospital. Believe them.

If you don't, can't or won't support your boyfriend address this serious psychotic problem that he has, just leave him. Don't do it for yourself, do it for him.

Don't fool yourself that he was never like this before and so it can't be attributed to mental illness. The way this case is manifesting itself is typical for an adult onset disease. This is not caused by mormonism.