Oh yeah, a youtube video, I'm sold. I'll bet there is a compelling and articulate Big Foot video as well. What next, are we going going to get a Wall Street Journal OP ed presented as scientific fact? I've heard some compelling and articulate testimony that TSCC is true, but that didn't pan out.

I will wait for it to come out in a scientifically reviewed paper, thank you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2015 11:44PM by MJ.

the instant they mention meeting (mythological) Jesus

smirkorama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the instant they mention meeting (mythological)
> Jesus


That doesn't make sense.

If an NDE is only an event in the brain, then why wouldn't a brain steeped in Christianity 'meet Jesus'?

Also, it's silly to blanket-call a multitude of people liars. How do you know their reported experience is not what they experienced?

*I guess your handle should indicate to me that your words are for the sake of causing a smirk and nothing more*

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, it's silly to blanket-call a multitude of
> people liars. How do you know their reported
> experience is not what they experienced?

Pointing out there's no evidence their "experience" was anything but an in-brain event, and doesn't require anything supernatural, isn't calling them "liars." It's simply explaining the "experience."

Compelling, not so much.

It's certainly possible that this is what this person imagined. I have no problem believing that. It says exactly nothing about there being any sort of afterlife, however.

There are certain categories of dreams that are pretty common when people are experiencing certain types of life events. Having to take a test where you are unprepared, being naked in public, running but getting nowhere, etc. It is certainly possible that people whose bodies are near death have similar types of dreams.

I'm waiting for someone to bring something back from one of these NDEs that can actually help humanity.

Jesus didn't share a simple design for sustainable energy? A better form of government? An economic system that doesn't reduce to a big game of musical chairs?

No? Ok...

Pretty typical (and awesome) NDE story. People see whatever God they were raised with. She's Bahai so no Jesus. We don't know what Steve Jobs saw, but his last words were "Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow."

Bill Hicks might have had it right when he said "we are the imagination of ourselves".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2015 11:43AM by bradley.

Could be thst they interpret the being they see as their god

I found it neither compelling nor articulate.
Clearly those are *subjective* assessments, yes?

These "experiences" occur within our physical brains, and are hallucination/imagination/"dream" experiences. There's no evidence anything 'external' occurs or is even possible.

Unless one of us has had such an experience, we are then just giving our own opinions on the matter.

I have vivid dreams, I always have. I remember many of them and there are other people there where I seem to be living another life. And, I know they are just my dreams...With that said, they do not come close to what people describe in their NDEs, which, seem to be more like real life than the dream state. They also seem to come back to be different people with new directions and hope in life. Dreams nor drugs do that. I want to stay open while I continue my quest of believing in nothing.

Of course this does not mean there is evidence for an after life. None of us know, really.

I don't know what to make of NDEs, but I must relate what happened in the late 1970's to a co-worker of mine.

Myself and a bunch of co-worker non-MOs were getting together at lunch when one of them returned from a dental appointment and was "white as a ghost" and was clearly shaken up. We naturally wondered why.

The co-worker, who had no use for religion or psychic matters whatever, said that the dentist had put him under anesthesia. The next thing he knew is that he was floating near the ceiling and was looking down on his body sitting in the dental chair with the dentist on one side and the assistant on the other. He watched as the dentist was slapping him vigorously and yelling at the assistant that "you gave him too much"! The co-worker instantly "snapped back" (his words) into his body and felt very groggy. The dentist let out a sigh of relief.

The co-worker didn't know anything about "out of the body" experiences and really believed he had almost died. I have nothing more to say other than the fact that this purportedly happened to someone with no prior knowledge of what to expect and, therefore, was rather unbiased. He was not the type of person to "tell tall tales" and was really scared. Whatever actually happened, it was very real to him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2015 01:06PM by Templar.

My brother had a similar experience.

During the operation (a simple procedure) he found himself floating above the operating table.

He looked down and heard the anesthetist shout: "Shit! I'm losing him!"

The surgeon shouted: "What do you mean, you're losing him? We don't lose people in this procedure!"

The anesthetist said: "It's OK. I've got him stabilised!"

My brother then felt himself re-enter his body.

During his recovery after the operation the surgeon came on his ward rounds and said: "It got a bit hairy there, for a while, to be honest. We thought we were losing you at one point."

The key word is "near". Are there any documented cases of these experiences once brain death has occured?

Almost all of these NDEs are occurring to individuals who's hearts are restarted after completely stopping. If brain dead (which, as of now, cannot be reversed), how would the person describe their experience? Unless, of course, as a dead person speaking through a medium and that's a completely different issue.

My thoughts exactly.

Templar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If brain dead ... how would the person
> describe their experience?

When we're sleeping, we actually spend most of the night completely unconscious. When we wake up, it's what our brain was doing during REM sleep, when we were dreaming, that we remember. The rest of the night is blank.

When a person has an NDE, I've read that it is thought that they could be having the experience before their vital signs went flat-lined, or especially during the period where their body slowly begins to come back to consciousness.

Perhaps during the time that they had no vital signs, they had no consciousness, but they wouldn't remember that part.

I've always been struck by a case where a young boy was found frozen in the snow. They considered him to be dead and could easily have sent him off to be prepared for burial.

But one doctor decided that he would try and warm him up and see what would happen. Maybe the cold would protect his organs. They stated that he was the most dead person they'd ever brought back to life.

The boy did revive and they couldn't wait to hear what he'd experienced while he was 'dead.' His reply was, "I didn't experience anything. It was like waking up from a sleep that I didn't know I was in."

One night I thought I saw the shadow of a human figure in my hallway. Just for a moment. There was nothing more to it than that.

My question is why should I make more of someone else's fleeting impressions? Especially someone who wasn't even conscious at the time. It's all as bollocks as kolob.

That's the sound of closed minds slamming tight shut.

I wasn't thinking of you, Don. ;o))

typical for me

No, it the sign of rational minds wanting empirical evidence, not just a testimony meeting.

I do not see any more of a reason to believe that video as the Sasquatch video.

It is not closed minded to want to wait for verifiable, repeatable, empirical evidence.

It is insulting to insist that people that want empirical evidence before making up their mind are closed minded.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2015 07:35PM by MJ.

Don't be silly.

We're happy to consider evidence as it becomes available.

Humans are terrible observers. And so subjective testimony is one of the poorest forms of evidence.

The question isn't is the the NDE a factual valid experience, but rather what is the NDE? Does it indicate an existence we know nothing about? How do we test that? Does it indicate that sight, touch, hearing, semi-omniscient recognition of beings we have no way to know who they are are really part of our consciousness? Why does this eternal form of consciousness perceive the same way we do now? Binocular vision instead of full spherical perception, in many more frequencies for example. Then why are people blind without physical eyes? Why are people deaf? Why do people suffer from Alzheimers if there's a consciousness with perfect recall within us?

You see the claims of being able to sense this other form of existence have ramifications on what we can sense right now without being dead.

It's simply too soon to say the NDE is factual as there's few if any supporting facts.

NDEs aren't consistent. Any theory of NDE has to support all forms of NDE. You can't just cherry pick and say these forms of NDE are valid but those that contradict this theory are false.

You can certainly argue that NDEs are interesting and deserve further research. But you need to back that up with ways to test, falsify and collect data before claiming things like life after death, non corporeal entities that sense and interact wtih the physical world and so on.

I do see a mind that is closed. It is a mind that is closed to skepticism.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I see no reason to be accused of being closed minded because we demand evidence.

matt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's the sound of closed minds slamming tight
> shut.

No, it's the sound of reasonable people pointing out that evidence is required to give outrageous claims merit -- and "NDEs" have no evidence for being anything but an in-brain dream/hallucination.

Present some evidence, and reasonable people will gladly accept it. That's not being "closed minded," it's being reasonable.

Has anyone heard of NDE's where someone gets evidence from the other side that the "church" is true? I haven't.

The few accounts I've heard talk about the light, etc., but never anything about the "church".

hfo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone heard of NDE's where someone gets
> evidence from the other side that the "church" is
> true? I haven't.

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Veil-1-Lee-Nelson-ebook/dp/B008NCUC50/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1423183177&sr=8-5&keywords=Beyond+the+Veil

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Veil-2-Lee-Nelson-ebook/dp/B008N3I9MW/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1423183177&sr=8-7&keywords=Beyond+the+Veil

Yes. I have these books and read them many times as a TBM. It bolstered my testimony when it was low. Now what does that tell you about NDEs? LOL

Hi,

If you don't want to watch the video, here's a summary:

http://www.near-death.com/pasarow.html

"Reinee saw that these Earth changes would ultimately lead to the establishment of God's Kingdom of heaven on Earth."

Earth...changes...

Uh-huh.

This woman is what we call a "nutter." She's a member of the Baha'i' "faith."

What does the Baha'i' faith claim?

From Wikipedia: "The Bahá'í Faith teaches that the only acceptable form of sexual expression is within marriage, and Bahá'í marriage is defined in the religion's texts as exclusively between one man and one woman."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith

"After her NDE, Reinee insisted that her mother allow her to become a Bahai."

An anti-gay NDE'r.

As Christopher Hitchens used to say, "Well, that clinches it!"

Steve

When the brain is stressed, it halucinates. That's all NDE is. You probably don't go anywhere when you die.

I think it is strange that so many people report these NDEs. There must be something happening to most of them, but it could definitely be within their own stressed out brain. It is kind of fascinating to hear about them.

However, this lady is not credible to me at all. She may have had some sort of experience, but not all the detail she describes. When people are on the precipice of death, does their memory actually become markedly improved even though their brain must have suffered some kind of damage? I don't think so. We have all seen the demonstrations that show people are terrible witnesses to spontaneous events. They swear up and down the thief was olive-skinned with a blue jacket, but really he was lily white with a red jacket.

I have also heard several police detectives describe how they can tell if someone is probably lying. One of the signs is if a suspect or witness can describe everything down to the smallest detail, including giving exact quotes. It shows they are not remembering but have made up the details to sound credible, ironically.

Throw in this lady's wacky religion and there is no way what she reports really happened inside or outside of her brain, in my view anyway.