"When you complain, you make yourself a victim.
Leave the situation, change the situation, or leave it.
All else is madness. Eckhart Tolle

I go back and forth on Tolle, his circle seems a little culty somehow.

Not sure what to think of Byron Katie either but I like her approach to breaking out of rigid and self-defeating narratives a little better at the moment.

I sift and cull writers comments. I choose what makes sense to me at the time. Sometimes something will resonate with me and work.
I'm not a follower of any of the current writers and thinkers that make the rounds on the talk shows, etc.

I do like to listen to what they are saying. I find Tolle to be difficult to get a handle on where he is coming from and what he really means.

I do like the concept that we can make ourselves a victim by complaining and not doing anything about it - just stewing, and rehashing and not moving in any direction.

I like Byron Katie's unconditional acceptance of the moment while still taking responsibility for how she acts (not reacts). I also like the unconditional joy she claims to feel. I am moving in that direction. I like her book, "1000 Names for Joy" ie everything is joy and she feels a part of everything. More suffering is often caused by reacting to a situation than the situation itself. The book uses the TAO as a spring board in discussion. I also like her husband's books and translations (Stephen Mitchell).


Here is a story from her book: (see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/byron-katie/how-i-learned-to-stop-suf_b_70207.html )

A man sticks a pistol into my stomach, pulls the hammer back, and says, "I'm going to kill you." I am shocked that he is taking his thoughts so seriously. He doesn't understand that the thought of killing causes guilt, which can lead to a life of suffering, so I ask him, as kindly as I can, not to do it. I don't tell him that it's his suffering I'm thinking of. He says that he has to do it, and I understand; I remember believing that I had to do things in my old life. I thank him for doing the best he can, and I notice that I'm fascinated. Is this how she dies? Is this how the story ends? As the joy continues to fill me, I find it miraculous that the story is still going on. You can never know the ending, even as it ends. I am very moved at the sight of sky, clouds, and moonlit trees. I love that I don't miss one moment, one breath, of this amazing life. I wait. And wait. And in the end, he doesn't pull the trigger. He doesn't do that to himself.

Every time I hear him talk, I walk away thinking, "He just spit out a whole ton of words and actually said nothing but jibberish."

Edit: I just remembered the term. Word salad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 07:05PM by Greyfort.

I'd had it with his magical thinking and rehashing the same questionable ideas over and over when I decided I was done reading "A New Earth", about 2/3 of the way through it.

I liked his quote in this post. So he has some worthwhile things to say. But I feel like I have to sort through too much verbiage, a quite a bit of BS to find any good stuff.

Lots of people really like him. That's the thing. Different strokes for different folks.

I think that is very sound advice for anyone, really. It doens't matter to me who said it, it makes sense. No one wants to be around a victim.

Ok, next time a restaurant messes up your order, don't complain.

When a restaurant gets my order mixed up, I can get pissed off. I also have the choices to send my meal back, request a refund, or make certain I never eat there again. I think this is what Tolle meant. Accept the circumstance that's not of my making, and turn it into something much better.

That's a ridiculous response. You know darn well this is not what he meant...Its constant complaining about situations that causes victimhood.

I think it's a sound idea to leave a dysfunctional situation if you can possibly do so. However it is not always possible nor prudent to do so, at least for the immediate future. I find his thoughts on this to be too facile.

There is some wisdom in understanding fully that the level of negativity (thoughts, actions, attitudes, etc.) that is shown in word and deed and sent to someone else is really causing the person holding onto the anger/hate/revenge/etc. the greatest suffering.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 07:33PM by SusieQ#1.

The problem is that I can't stand to listen to all of the nonsense in order to get to the few good gems. If I wanted to, I could just look up a list of his best quotes.

I love Eckhart Tolle. I think he is one of very few "New Age" teachers who actually believes and lives what he teaches. Many of his stories and examples are based on Zen Buddhism, but he preaches no particular religion. Mostly it's about taking responsibility for your life, also how ego at some point becomes a hindrance to further progress.

I taught a study course on his book "A New Earth." Learned a lot from it and it had a profound impact on me and the other students.

I like Tolle quite a bit. His advice helped me with my medium sized problems, but when my family member got cancer his advice did not ring deeply enough to help.

He talks a lot about being in the now, zen stuff, which is good advice, but if we always lived in the present, we would not have anything for lunch because we forgot to plan for it. Plus retreating into my mind is how I relax.

I listened to one of his audiobooks--a new earth---(a reference to the book of revelation--he tries to appeal to Christians when possible). His reading was fairly hypnotic, his German accent quite sweet. Great for insomnia. He has some answers, not all.

Substitute the word "person" for "situation". This does not work as a universal premise.

I was raped. I could neither change the situation nor leave it.

Can a parent run away from a child?

Is merely escaping enough? I escaped from my rapist, but he's still out there raping and beating women. Escaping was not enough--I had to at least TRY to stop him from hurting others, even though I failed.

Tolle is too pat, too overly-simplified. It is yet another one-size-fits-all cult. Fill up a book with a lot of words! Hype it! Get Oprah to hype it! Tolle didn't make his money because of his profound thoughts--he made money from selling his book.

All these writers are talking about transcendence using different approaches. One author may sound like word salad because you have no frame of reference for the terminology, or because you are not ready for that message, or that approach may not appeal to you.

A year later or a decade later that very same author will speak directly to your heart. That's why we should keep searching and exposing ourselves to new ideas. Who knows what will click and open a closed door.

Personally, Eckhart Tolle resonated with me when I read the first line of his book "Silence Speaks." He said, " You may not need to read this book. You may only need to hold it to be reminded of what your already know."

At the time, I had just had a powerful experience which I initially attributed to Jesus. Since I had already decided to use the same critical thinking that got me out of Mormonism, I asked myself what else could I attribute my experience to? I read a book on intuition and found that since I had not prayed or asked Jesus for help, I could just as easily attribute my inspiration to intuition.

I wondered what things I "already knew" which I had suppressed under Mormon and Catholic thought-stopping indoctrination. This changed my life from being a person chronically thinking I was not good enough, unworthy, etc, to a woman overjoyed at finding some knowledge and power within--some answers not given by a priesthood or a church.

I had no idea the concepts Tolle described about having two minds were essentially Buddhist. I just knew his message helped me move in a more productive direction in my life. I read his book "Silence Speaks" several times and practice the concepts almost every day (since I tend to talk too much--see how long this post is?)


Kathleen Waters

This very thing happened to me (with one of Tolle's sources, A Course in Miracles). I had read all kinds of spiritual books for decades, even working in a Theosophical bookstore, and resonated most with Advaita ones. I had picked up the volume of ACIM occasionally, but couldn't penetrate the language the theistic language. Fast forward years, during which time I started studying psychology (ACIM was "scribed" and delivered by two Columbia Univ. psychologists), and I was going through a crisis where I couldn't fall back on my previous learning to work things out and began to doubt my own mental frameworks.

I was visiting someone, woke up one morning and saw the ACIM book by the bed and opened it (to the Workbook). Suddenly what was previously unintelligible was crystal clear. It's almost as if it was now 'translated' into comprehensible English. I marveled that this was the same text I had superciliously dismissed before 'because it didn't say anything.' "I" was the one who previously couldn't read.

I just started the ACIM last night Richard, as I said I was going to thanks to you. I’m really liking it so far. It’s already nicely validated two specific aspects of a period in my life I went through many years ago. I’m looking forward to the rest of it. I actually kind of like the theistic translations so far, they’re nearly identical to the translations I was making years ago during that period, and part of what I’m finding validating about it. Funny how it’s been around the house for years (my wife’s study practically is a theosophical bookstore), and I just never picked it up. It must be the right time now.

When are you going to write your book Richard?

Actually, I think a good book does need to be written...about the "responsibility assumption" (wiki has an entry)--not in the ego-pandering way of "The Secret" or "What The Bleep..." ACIM has a lot of passages that support it, but at a deep level that we-as-we-think-we-are can't manipulate.

In the meantime (haha), let me suggest books by Robert Perry, the best of the 'Course teachers' out there, in my opinion. (ACIM is open to all sorts of co-opting--"we"think we can use it as a tool to get what we/egos want.) His "Relationships As a Spiritual Journey" deals with a perspective that I have not seen handled, at least this well, in any other spiritual tradition. Some critics claim ACIM is a hodgepodge of already-familiar Eastern and Western approaches, but I see it as covering things that are completely new (reflecting our age's ability to think psychologically). You might also check out Perry's et al. website, http://www.circleofa.org/

>> (ACIM is open to all sorts of co-opting--"we" think we can use it as a tool to get what we/egos want.) <<

I promise I won’t do anything bad with it. LOL. I’m over the whole 6 yachts thing anyway. And ‘The Secret’ really bugged me, and I never even read it; I knew I didn’t want to, just from watching everyone drool over how rich they were going to get. Great, just what we need, more trouble. And I'd already discovered manifestation years before anyway. It’s emancipation I’m after; for humanity, and for me too. I personally wouldn’t mind getting off this ride, or altering it, if there’s a way. Or maybe that’s just my ego talking.

I’ll check out Robert Perry. And your book too, when it’s written!

in the sense you mean. It just won't work as your genie (primarily because of a conflict in the unintegrated person between competing wants in the conscious and subconscious). However, I think people misguidedly do do something bad with it if they hinder themselves with selfish notions in relation to it, thus delaying their own progress, or suck others into the same short-circuited way of reading it and make a cult out of it.

Yes, just little joke there about being bad, referencing trying to use it as a genie period.

That’s all I’m hoping to get from it is progress on my path. I guess I’ll find out what I think when I’m through it. Thanks Richard.

My late uncle, as close to a father-figure I had for most of my life, was so impressed with Tolle that many years ago, he sent me a copy of one of his books I don't even recall which one.

I waded into it and had about as much success as trying to bog-trot through the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles. I was still employed at the time and probably we still had kids at home, so there were a lot of distractions.

I have kept the book because my uncle cared enough to send me a copy, so it is precious to me, but I have always felt ashamed that what seemed so wonderful to my uncle was absolutely meaningless to me. And I'm not generally slow in the intellect department.

Maybe I just wasn't in a place yet where I could make sense of it. I'll have a take another shot at it now that my life isn't so crazy.

Thank all of you for your perspectives.

I would rather say, "When you speak out, you take the first step in changing a situation."

The Power of Now Had too many words for my taste. A smaller book, Practicing the Power of Now, is his one book that is like poetry for me.

The Power of Now is one of the books that changed my life.

Similar to the way Richard Foxe above described ACIM, the Power of Now has been described as the type of book that will either be (1) incredibly meaningful or (2) a bunch of meaningless gibberish, depending on whether a person is spiritually ready for the message. For me, the entire book resonated strongly, and it transformed my perspective on life.

So, when I am at a restaurant and they deliverer chicken rather than steak, I should not complain?

What total bull shit.

And why is tolle complaining about people complaining?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2015 01:33AM by MJ.

No, because in the restaurant context you are describing, "complaining," is an effective tool for changing the situation. So of course that kind of complaining is productive.

Tolle is describing the human tendency to incessantly complain about people and situations over which we really have no control. Doing so is a waste of mental and emotional energy, and truly is madness.

Good comment. Another way of looking at it is when you are about to complain ask yourself this question. Am I complaining in order to aid the world around me to positively evolve or is this my childish ego having a temper tantrum that will result in increasing the world's already large burden of anger, insecurity, and shame?

When you order steak and they deliver chicken, you may be getting just what you wanted. Regardless of your conscious desire, if your subconscious desire IS to complain, then the movie screen of your life will deliver the answer to that deeper controlling desire: something to complain about--a justifiable reason to complain. In psychology this is sometimes called one's secondary process (the primary process is the conscious desire).

Few people know their own subconscious, but you can bet that what they continually do, even if this is apparently in reaction to "unwanted" outside events, something within clearly wants to do this. In such a case (and perhaps in every case), he complainer isn't merely unlucky or picked on or an innocent victim of circumstances.

Many years ago I had the great good fortune of attracting a crazy old medicine woman into my life. We had many lunches during our few short years together. She had an opportunity once to say to me, “Well that MUST have been what you wanted, because THAT’S what they brought you!” Then she cackled all through lunch, as I poked around in my plate while she enjoyed her delicious feast. I recall admitting how I’d actually liked what I got, even though I wouldn’t have ever ordered it. She replied, “See, they just wanted you to try something new, instead of that crap you usually order” Then she cackled hysterically in that infuriating way that only she could.

We need to find MJ a crazy old medicine lady to hang out with.

Between him and Deepak Chopra, I don't know who is the bigger BS generator:

http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/

rt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Between him and Deepak Chopra, I don't know who is
> the bigger BS generator:

Yeah, the word salad line was levelled at Deepak Chopra by Sam Harris, but I felt it applied to Tolle as well.

New-agey, vaguely spiritualistic woo.

Breakfast :Non-stop complaints are irritating and depressing. If you can do something to improve the situation, do it. If not, make the best of it, deal with it, try to suffer through it, but sometimes it helps to get it out and air one's grievances.

Like all things, moderation and empathy are key. That wasn't so hard, was it? But shoot, I'm not making money off it. Tolle is, and he knows it.

Beware purveyors of woo.

I understand Tolle's message to mean changing things that can be changed. When sh@t happens ( and it does), we have the choice to wallow in it or to extract what wisdom there is to be had. It reminds me of Man's search for Meaning by Viktor Frankle who survived Aushwitz. Even though the prisoners could not control the deplorable conditions, they absolutely could change their attitude in that situation.

I "get" Tolle, but I wouldn't have ten years ago. Life is filled with dragons to slay. It's up to me how I'll get that done. The moment I chose to take 100 percent responsibility for my life, it changed my trajectory and I've never been the same. So glad I took back the wheel in my own life!

“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.”
― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

Perhaps the hardest nut in spiritual teachings is the claim that our situations ARE a reflection of our selves-needing-change, and things like Auschwitz are the most difficult to fathom in that respect. The automatic reaction is to label it horrendous victim-blaming. How could any sufferer there be responsible?

All I can say is that our ego, even at a preconscious level, is a master at framing situations so that we don't see our complicity in them, projecting the danger outside and thus preserving its own "innocence."

I don't expect anyone irate over victim-blaming to accept any of this, but... just imagine a scenario that righteously indignant victim supporters propose: it's so common to see someone say about an abuser or killer of 'innocent children' that he or she deserves the same thing. I think one's own existential conscience, far deeper than our ego awareness, says the same thing (it's not "God" that does this)...and programs an incarnation where they will experience what they believe they've done to others. So, in keeping with the Holocaust, what if Himmler, Goebbels, Hitler, or others are reborn--as sweet and innocent children, but with this heavy baggage which something in their subconscious wants to discharge?

I don't say "Let 'em have it," because that's not necessarily educational or reforming and because it creates a domino-line of guilt for those who 'serve them these deserts,' so to speak. But without anyone here in consensus reality knowing what's going on, I believe it does happen like this.

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.”

That, to me, is the essence of Taoism's teachings. And after we change ourselves, we often find the situation has suddenly changed too.


And if you work on yourself, you can work it to a point where dinner comes, and it's acceptable, and great, with no need to complain to any waiter. But wrapping your head around that is a tough nut to crack, there are layers to it. That's been my experience of moving away from blame mentality. Oddly, it was Taoism that helped me the most with that, I don't get bad dinners anymore, but I'm also not expecting them, or looking for them.

Very well said!
Ops, this applies to the post with the quote from Viktor E. Frankl. (but also to the posts from torturednevermo and Richard Foxe)
Another good quote from Viktor E. Frankl goes something like this "Most people in the camp felt than if we didn't survive then all of this suffering would have no meaning. A few of us thought differently. If there was no meaning in the suffering then there was no meaning in surviving the suffering."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2015 10:39AM by ab.

I don't know if I agree about that. This is the same problem I have with all the "lighten up" "positive thinking" mumbo jumbo in general. Fear, frustration, hurt, anger e.t.c. are essential signals telling us something is wrong but they are very crude. Until you have formulated these vague signals into an actual complaint there is no situation to distance yourself from. Solve what? Walk away from what?

My approach if I find myself complaining about everything or are told so by others is to start figuring out what is really going on. What am I really frustrated/sad/disappointed/afraid of right now? Am I hungry and tired? E.t.c. Any hint of "you are not entitled to feel bad"-advice seems to me counterproductive. On the contrary, a complaint is a potential starting point to positive change just as doubt is the starting point of learning. I'd agree that there is little point in getting stuck in negative emotions. But they are essential to indentify and define the problem/situation/behavior that needs to be adressed.

This is the point I hoped would come out and it did:

from catnip:

"....what seemed so wonderful to my uncle was absolutely meaningless to me. .."

I have seen my life as Times and Seasons. What I needed to hear at one point, was indeed, meaningless at another.

I have found what works for me at this point in my life through attitudes, being peaceful inside, taking one day at a time, and being grateful.
Everything else is frosting on the cake!

Thanks for all the comments. Got me thinking about things differently... always a good thing!!

"The guru is disciple to no man."

There's "Zen koan" duality about this one (a "metaphysical echo") that I find appealing (since if one aspires to "guru-hood" one must reject--or at least abandon--following another).

Kopp was the author of "If You Meet The Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!"

In the spirit of his "sharing of tales," I'll leave it for others to consider; it was a milestone for me, but I can't be sure there wasn't a good deal of adolescent angst behind all of it.

As far as Tolle goes, I read a biography of an unhappy individual, raised in the devastation of Post WW II Germany, and his "transcendence" may simply have been a "survival reaction" to those circumstances.

Or perhaps not...

/insert sound of one hand clapping

In Transactional Analysis terms, Tolle appears to have adopted for the "Parent Ego-state," and I tend to want to keep such individuals away from my Inner Child. Too many authoritative LDS types in my own upbringing, perhaps...

I'm not going to read him; another long-time recovering sort--and the son of a Mormon bishop--once recommended Krishnamurti to me, and I was totally lost (see my friend imaworkingonit's comments above; Postwar Germany = British India). I think if I go for a book along those lines, it'll probably be W. Somerset Maughn's "A Razor's Edge."

I understand the protagonist winds up a cabdriver...

For someone wanting to "fully "grok" (thank you, Mr. Heinlein) the transcendent experience, I recommend the satire found in the rock-opera, "Tommy."

I think this maybe true for all of us. I like this comment from Cabbie, referencing Tolle:

"....may simply have been a "survival reaction" to those circumstances."

Yes. I think we often have a "survival reaction" to our circumstances, and as those change, our reactions change and we use different techniques.

The older I become, the more I like ditching the past! It's over, done, time to do things differently if necessary.

I certainly do not think there is some deity or savior with a big book keeping track of every thought, and deed and lining them up in columns of good and bad, righteous and unrighteous.

Life..well... just... is.

We all get the same deal: we live, we die, we do stuff in between.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2015 12:19PM by SusieQ#1.

Intended to stir up unnecessary guilt over being human.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Intended to stir up unnecessary guilt over being
> human.

Interesting reading.
I didn't read that into it at all. But I don't fall into the shame/guilt trap anyhow. My mind just doesn't go there.

Accept it when you mess up, learn from it, apologise, make amends where possible, and move on after learning from the experience. Just don't wallow in it, it's counter-productive.

There, the guru has spoken - it's a miracle! $500 please.