An assessment:

Most people are born with a moral sense. That's just the way people are. The details of how the moral sense arises and develops as a human being develops is a question best left for the relevant experts. Nevertheless, most healthy, normal people are born with a moral sense.

If a child is born into Mormonism, that child, too, will be born with a moral sense. But, then, the Mormon-born child will be taught that whatever the Church teaches is right, morally and otherwise. And there would be no problem with that, if it were indeed the case that everything the church taught was right, or, at least, did not appear to conflict with the child's moral sense. But, as it happens, by-and-by, the child will become acquainted with teachings, here and there, that the child will find to conflict with his or her moral sense. Perhaps the child will find teachings regarding polygamy, the role of women, or the withholding of the priesthood from those of African descent to conflict with the child's moral sense. And, the child, being a child, will, upon notifiying trusted adults, and others of their larger Mormon community, of the conflict, be instructed that their moral sense is wrong. The child will be told that it is the church that is right, not their moral sense. And this will happen numerous times, at a vulnerable age, until, finally, the child has learned to distrust their own moral sense.

Such children then go on to grow to adulthood never having obtained the most important characteristic an adult must possess: confidence in their own ability to undertake moral analysis. Such adults are insecure, dependent, and vulnerable.

Do you agree with this assessment? What issues in Mormonism may have caused you as a child to distrust your own natural moral sense?

You have hit the "Sure Sign of the Nail" on the head with this one.
This is the reason I quit at the age of 15. My own moral compass said that the CULT was wrong and when I asked the bishop about it, I got in serious trouble and therefore quit. I am so happy that it happened.

Things Mormons think are important:

1) Chastity
2) Marrying someone Mormon, especially an RM
3) Not drinking coffee, tea, alcohol or smoking
4) Logging butt time in the pews
5) Going to the temple
6) Converting people to Mormonism
7) Blocking gays from getting married
8) Giving lots of time and money to the LDS Church

Things I think are important

1) Preserving the environment
2) Higher education
3) Overcoming sexism, racism and homophobia
4) Spending time exploring your interests
5) Exploring history and world cultures
6) Treating everyone fairly and giving them opportunities
7) Finding love and friendship
8) Saving enough money for my mfuture

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One my siblings once said, "I'm here to get a body and raise children in the gospel."

The ambition runs deep with that one.

axeldc's post should be made into a poster and tacked onto every ward bulletin board in Mormondom. Might wake a few of them up.

How Mormonism Undermines the Morale Sense

It always has had some meeting, talk, de-motivational devotional about reading stuff I didn't want to, pray to someone I didn't know, and interact with people I didn't like.

It definitely has undermined and trampled on my Morale Sense.

I could see that. And, similarly, their overall judgement as well.

Which could explain why Utah has the highest level of affinity fraud (http://universe.byu.edu/2014/06/16/affinity-fraud-continues-to-plague-utahns-and-mormons/), among other things.

It creates and maintains an external moral center rather than an internal one. Someone/something other than themselves is their moral authority. That's why they'll say that without the church they'd spin out of control.

The dangerous thing about an external moral center is that the authorities can convince you immoral things are moral.

So true. I don't know how many times I heard people say, "Without the church, I don't know where I would be today" or something similar. (Probably not in a church building, bearing testimony, but also not likely in the gutter, shooting heroin and turning tricks, which for most Mormons, seems to be the only option).

My son is a moral person because I allowed him to be.

The moralizers are all wrong, and it's my sincere hope that they all be found out.

I agree, and it's sad. I hope they can all heal.

Personally, my moral sense was pretty effected for a while after I stopped going to church. After all, I was leaving all I knew. I was confused and unsure about everything, but I was still glad I left. So when I went to college I decided to become a philosophy and psychology major and I think my moral sense is pretty great now. It just takes some adjustment.

Making moral decisions is not seen as a responsibility. Instead, you abdicate that responsibility so you never gain the skill set required to navigate nuances and social situations.

Moral sense is as simple as making friends. Mormonism turns this on its head by making you forget what friendship even means. That's why Mormon friends are fair weather friends in almost every case.

Yes, absolutely right! I agree with your assessment. This is exactly how I feel--insecure, vulnerable and unsure about how to navigate the world with my own moral compass rather than the church's. It's been hard to start to rely on my own moral compass and to trust it. But I am getting better at it.

I can cite .. from my DIRECT LDS experience that I was taught/exampled that anything NOT in the CHI was OK:


-License Fraud by leaders (A Huge problem in Washington)


-teacher lying in Sunday School: "It's Not Important"
(teacher was an officer at the Bank, we wouldn't want to upset him!)

Special Privileges for Mormon Royalty: (Burger King Jingo): "Special Orders Don't Upset Us"

(numerous DIRECT examples that were life-long lessons to me)
(they were apparently too dumb to understand how these things effect the rank-and-file!)


O Say What Is Truth? Mormons didn't get the memo!

Great post, Phelps! You've got it right.

When I finally escaped, I felt like I'd been ground up in a meat grinder. Up was down, down was up, I was a "nothing" full of nothing but confusion. All my life I managed to cling to a few threads. One was LOVE. I always believed that God was Love, and that Love was Christ's number one principle. One day, when I was over 40 years old, I looked around me, and realized that there was no love in the Mormon church. God was not there.

My children definitely had a Moral Sense. They never could believe the JS stories. They recognized lies. It was as clear to them as finding out the truth about Santa Claus. They were dumbfounded that I believe in the Mormon nonsense, and they went along just to please me. They were good kids, maybe because of their innate "Moral Sense." They also had great non-Mormon friends who felt the same way, and they could all talk to each other, and with me. My wise children led me out of the cult.

My children were always afraid of clowns! I always thought it was that the facade was painted on and fake, but an adult's eyes were peering at them from behind it all. What was this clown really thinking? What was it going to do? My wise children could not read the truth in its facial expression. We feel that way about Mormons, now.

Well, that's what a cult does, make you question, remove, then replace your innate sense of values and morals and replace them with whatever the cult leader(s) decide you need.

I like what Penn Gillette says about atheists and morals (paraphrased): religionists do the right thing because God tells them to--atheists do good things because...well, it's simply the right thing to do!

good / O.K., but: people don't always (often) agree on what the 'right' thing is.

many people harm others believing 'it was the right thing (at that time, in those circumstances) to do'

Phelps - Are you sure everyone is born with a sense of morality? Isn't it the case that growing up in certain situations can all but guarantee that most people behave like sociopaths, where anything is permitted as long as it benefits you?

No, I do not believe that everyone is born with an innate sense of morality, just the large majority of people. And apparently the moral sense appears early in the life of most human beings: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-moral-life-of-babies/ But there are those whose moral sense is almost completely absent, just as there are those who are born without arms or legs. But most are born with arms, legs, and a moral sense.

It may be that extreme circumstances can produce the kind of dystopia you describe, but I doubt that such a dystopia has ever been observed, not even in the bugaboo of Nazi Germany. This is, perhaps, further evidence that most people are born with a moral sense.

I think children are born innately selfish. It's a survival mechanism of our species. They need to be socialized, and morality is a social construct. It's about how we treat each other, how we balance self-interest with the wellbeing of others. If we were all totally isolated individuals there would be no need for it.

When I brought the subject up with a psychologist, she told me that was an accurate description of babies and children. They HAVE to be taught how to behave and develop empathy. Maybe for some it comes more naturally than others (this is where OCEAN, the top 5, come into play) but anyone who's spent a lot of time with children know they need a lot of reinforcement for ethical behaviour and taught that all their actions have consequences (age appropriate of course.)

I sort of agree with the original post except for the fact moral sense is not that inate but is always heavily influenced by the norms of society. Racism and prejudice based on sexual orientation are relative new comers to the social taboo list.
Sexism is somewhat suprisingly further behind on the list given 50 percent of every population is female (Except in Utah and Nauvoo where I believe women most have outnumbered men by about 40 to 1.)

It would have been better to use the term "moral sensibility" than "moral sense." I do not want to suggest that people are born with a sixth sense that can detect morality in the same way that eyes detect color. An innate moral sensibility would be responsive to a moral agent's understanding of the facts. Change a person's understanding of the facts and the innate moral sensibility will process those facts to change the resulting moral assessment accordingly. Thus, when people come to see homosexuals as human beings with rights who live and love, instead of seeing them as slobbering, degenerate sexual predators, their moral sensibility kicks in to change the moral assessment.

Tops !!!

PhELPs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Such children then go on to grow to adulthood
> never having obtained the most important
> characteristic an adult must possess: confidence
> in their own ability to undertake moral analysis.
> Such adults are insecure, dependent, and
> vulnerable.
>

I think this is the most profound part of your comments. The most important skill an adult can have is the belief that they can keep themselves safe - earn money, keep a roof over their head, avoid danger etc. It's critical to self-esteem and survival. Insecure, dependent, vulnerable adults are what the church wants, because they are more obedient and compliant. And re: the rest of your analysis, it's not moral to use someone else's morals rather than develop your own. The mere fact Mormonism requires you to use their morals no matter what makes it an immoral system.

...That we're born with a moral sense. Babies and toddlers bear a strong resemblance to sociopaths and have to be taught empathy and ethical behaviour. Some need this reinforcement more than others.

I'll have to ask a few other psychologists what they think and get through a few chapter in Human Development and get back to you on this subject. One that I've spoken with regarding this subject has confirmed this concept.

Any Way you look at it, during over your priorities / decisions to another individual or org. is a minefield.

just sayin'

I think the main harm the LDS church does to the moral sense is corrupt notions of honesty. We are taught to say what we don't mean and pretend to what we don't believe. Lying for The Lord is spoken of in seminary with great humor and admiration. Special code phrases that seem to mean one thing and really mean another are taught to missionaries.

To paraphrase Emerson, this makes us false, not in one or two particulars, but in every particular.

Boy does this ring true.

Other than your entire premise being wrong, sure. There is no moral sense. Your are born as a blank slate.

Not everyone appears to agree that we are born as a blank slate:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-moral-life-of-babies/

Nevertheless, I should have been more careful not to make my claim sound as strong as it did. I attempted to make it clear that I was not committing myself to specific details and was leaving the details up to the experts, but then went on to talk about people being born with a moral sense. So, that was a little confusing.

But my premise is really just that there is some kind of moral faculty that is possessed by most people that gives rise to a tendency to engage in moral judgments. I think that the facts that the vast majority of people, from all cultures, make moral judgments, treat those judgments as having a special status (as objectively true and as a basis for blame or praise), and make roughly the same moral judgements is evidence of such a faculty. I'm mostly agnostic about what that faculty might be, how it might operate, what factors might influence it, or at what stage of life it makes its appearance. When I spoke of people being born with a moral sense my intention was merely to emphasize that the faculty comes with being human (usually).

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1329151,1329151#msg-1329151
I've had similar thoughts