I attended SM with my TBM wife this morning and one of the speakers read a quote praising JS, expounding on how we'd only have the Bible and not the "fullness of the gospel" contained in the BoM if it weren't for him, etc...

I spent the rest of the meeting trying to think of teachings in the BoM that aren't contained in the Bible. I couldn't think of much. Nothing significant on the nature of God, what happens when we die, how we should live, necessary ordinances, etc... Both books have tales about how God likes to play favorites, curse people, etc... I finally came up with one thing that TBM's probably think is significant: exact wording for sacrament prayers. That's it?...that's why God wants Mormons to have the book? Can anyone think of ANYTHING else?

Then I got thinking, even some TBM's are getting fed up with the Joseph worship. Even those that believe in the BoM will say that God would have called another to do his work if Joseph had failed. They acknowledge that nobody should be singing praises to ANY prophet, true or not. Some admit that Joe had serious flaws, or even that he was a first-class scumbag. He wasn't special in any way. They just believe that he was a tool in god's hands.

Then it hit me...finally some common ground...a way that I can relate to the TBM's in my life...something we can all agree on:

Joseph Smith was a tool!

I can't think of anything either. Most of what we consider unique to Mormonism that isn't found in mainstream Christianity, comes from the Doctrine and Covenants, not the Book of Mormon. There are things in the BoM that some would consider debunk today's church. That's how clueless some Mormons are about their own religion.

I have a Christian friend who was driving through Utah on her way home from somewhere and noticed a big billboard with Joseph Smith's picture on it and the words "Praise to the Man." She was outraged by this because she thought Mormons were putting Joseph Smith up on the level of God and to her, it was pure sacrilege. This was a few years ago but she still talks about how much it bugs her whenever Mormonism enters our conversation. I think Mormonism Inc. made a big mistake when it started in on the Joseph worship and am not surprised people are becoming disillusioned.

http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/images/118_23.jpg

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

Chump: yes, the prayer you mentioned, and the dude was used (though he liked new women) and reacted to that "calling", like mad. Mainstream Mormonism today is a graft of many things, while still harboring many of it's original intents and positions Joseph Smith "FOUND" it on.

CA girl - nice points. billboard? Ick!
Truthbetold - right
Exdrymo - makes sense.
"Correct me if I'm wrong,but wasnt the original scam simply to sell the book of Mormon and make money? Wasn't the religion and Joe's prophethood an afterthought?

If so, then it makes sense that it would be as inoffensive to protestant Christians as possible, while still giving them an interesting story to read."

anybody Wrote:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/images/118_23.
> jpg

(Nice image, by the way. I was already laughing...) moremany

NOTE: I just read this JS quote, below, [separately, elsewhere] right before finding myself reading - and commenting on - this thread.

> "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All
> hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down
> your lava! for I will come out on the top at last.
> I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I
> am the only man that has ever been able to keep a
> whole church together since the days of Adam. A
> large majority of the whole have stood by me.
> Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.
> I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The
> followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the
> Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

Then it pops up here.

BUT REALLY- Knowing/ Reading stuff like this JS said (of course only a very small percentage of Mormons even have a clue about the true nature of LDS's founder, much less some of the things - like this - he said)

and simply knowing that and how he contrived, took and co-opted [from many sources], outright swindled members of his [so called] "church", his family [supposedly beloved], friends and neighbors, other [actual] religious leaders, new members of his growing community [of followers in America and abroad that he conned into coming over from across the pond],

forged, copied, lost, forgot [whenever convenient], embezzled, manufactured, stole, manipulated, twisted, changed and perverted, adulterated, made-up, hid up, lied-about, covered-up, re-invented [himself/ his mission statement/ pioneer profit idolization/ ("his"tory of) LDS church's (MORMONIsm'$) 'found'ing]

and essentially mislead people (not just on a leisurely walk but through a lifetime or more of supposed good and possibly evil) as to the true nature of Jesus Christ, and therefore found (the church he thought was his) more than anything, he had the monster by the tail.

That Joe was a righteous, "clean" or honourable man, or a leader of something important or had any good intent with his book "going viral" is wishful thinking.

He made up a lie, a paradox, a false religion (bad in good clothing) and hid it, in plain sight, to see who would get it - the oxymoron - and who would get lost or caught up in it.

That's what it seems.

The Mormon church (TMC) is built upon the sand... and HERE COME the WAVES and the WIND and the FIRES and THE HUNGRY (and the naked - EeWWWhww!¡!!) and THE STARVING (for real answers/ the truth [an ambiguous thing in TMC], even a morsel of the truth) and it's got nothing to feed them!... and virtually nothing to protect itself from the TRUTH, (the thing it is supposed to stand on, and not wobble), that it is all a joke.

"What is absolute truth in the morning of your life can turn out to be absolute lies in the afternoon of your life" _Dr. Wayne Dyer

Good afternoon everybody!

M@t

There were never any golden plates.

BRING ME all the plastic bread and water trays (from all the wards and branches across the world) and I will show you some golden plates.

moremany Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> BUT REALLY- Knowing/ Reading stuff like this JS
> said (of course only a very small percentage of
> Mormons even have a clue about the true nature of
> LDS's founder, much less some of the things - like
> this - he said)
>
> and simply knowing that and how he contrived, took
> and co-opted , outright swindled members of his
> "church", his family , friends and neighbors,
> other religious leaders, new members of his
> growing community ,
>
> forged, copied, lost, forgot , embezzled,
> manufactured, stole, manipulated, twisted,
> changed and perverted, adulterated, made-up, hid
> up, lied-about, covered-up, re-invented
>
> and essentially mislead people (not just on a
> leisurely walk but through a lifetime or more of
> supposed good and possibly evil) as to the true
> nature of Jesus Christ, and therefore found (the
> church he thought was his) more than anything, he
> had the monster by the tail.
>
> That Joe was a righteous, "clean" or honourable
> man, or a leader of something important or had any
> good intent with his book "going viral" is wishful
> thinking.
>
> He made up a lie, a paradox, a false religion (bad
> in good clothing) and hid it, in plain sight, to
> see who would get it - the oxymoron - and who
> would get lost or caught up in it.
>
> That's what it seems.
>
> The Mormon church (TMC) is built upon the sand...
> and HERE COME the WAVES and the WIND and the FIRES
> and THE HUNGRY (and the naked - EeWWWhww!¡!!) and
> THE STARVING (for real answers/ the truth , even a
> morsel of the truth) and it's got nothing to feed
> them!... and virtually nothing to protect itself
> from the TRUTH, (the thing it is supposed to stand
> on, and not wobble), that it is all a joke.
>
> "What is absolute truth in the morning of your
> life can turn out to be absolute lies in the
> afternoon of your life" _Dr. Wayne Dyer
>
> Good afternoon everybody!
>
> M@t


^ this ^

What a bag of hot air he was!

Here's the catch.......

IF a mormon bothers to read the BoM, it's usually just a passage here and there that goes along with a correlated lesson. It's bent and twisted to fit the tall tale of that particular lesson.

If a mormon does sit down and read the BoM from cover to cover, it's usually in a mindset of "I'm going to read the damn thing even if it kills me!" They grit their teeth and read through it contemplating little if anything.

That's what i've observed in my life as a mormon.

The BOM is an anti-Mormonism book. The BOM teaches a Protestant view of Christianity. It has nothing to do with Mormonism as it exists today. Joseph Smith and even today's Q15 say it contains the "Fullness of the Gospel".

Let's see:
-BOM teaches heaven and hell; no mention of three degrees of glory.
-BOM teaches One God.
-BOM teaches that God is unchanging (yet TSCC changes is doctrine of salvation like a chameleon changes to adapt to its environment).
-BOM does not say you have to wear garments your whole life.
-BOM makes no mention of initiatories required for salvation.
-BOM makes no mention of new names required for salvation.
-BOM makes no mention of endowments required for salvation.
-BOM makes no mention of temple marriage required for salvation.
-BOM makes no mention of second annointings in temples
-BOM condemns polygamy (Jacob 2:23-28)
-BOM says that all those that are without the law are redeemed and they cannot repent and baptism avails them nothing. So, baptisms for the dead are not needed (by default, this also says that all temple ordinances are not needed).
-Jesus in the BOM (3 Nephi 11) teaches that His gospel is faith, repentance and baptism.
-Jesus also teaches in 3 Nephi 11:40 that whoso declares more or less than this and establish it as doctrine, the same cometh of evil and their foundation is not upon my rock but upon sand.

Yes, the BOM teaches the opposite of what Mormonism is.

Excellent. If the BoM is true, TSCC is false. How can anyone wade through it and not realize this. Of course, since TSCC is supposedly based on the BoM being true, the falsity of the BoM also condemns TSCC.

He wanted them to have this fullness.

..they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white and delightsome and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of darkness to come upon them.

Correct me if I'm wrong,but wasnt the original scam simply to sell the book of Mormon and make money? Wasn't the religion and Joe's prophethood an afterthought?

If so, then it makes sense that it would be as inoffensive to protestant Christians as possible, while still giving them an interesting story to read.

I noticed the strong disconnect between the BOM and Mormonism as practiced a long time ago. It's a big weakness in their storyline. I never could really relate the book to modern realities, and always found the correlated lessons, which try to take scriptures and apply them to current life issues, to be a desparate stretch.

Wow, I thought this thread would take off, as it's a question I've often wondered about, so may I deviate a bit and ask "What do you *learn* after reading the BoM that's not in the Bible"--you know, Be Good, Don't Be a Dick And You'll Get To Heaven; God/Jesus Loves You; God Helps People; God Curses People; God Saves people; God Commands People To Kill Other People?

We've all heard the testimonies and ChurchCo propaganda where people say they "learn something new" every time they read the BoM (much like the temple "learning" jazz), but besides how to herd your flocks with snakes and instructions for lopping off heads and arms, I can't think of anything "spiritually" new...

I never learned anything new each time I read it. Sometimes different bits would stand out more than others but the continual phrase 'and it came to pass' just did my head in. There was no space left on the gold plates to write anything interesting by the time Nephi, Alma etc, chiselled out that phrase over 60 times.

Also the Book of Mormon doesn't say anything about the Word of Wisdom, pornography, doing home or visiting teaching, relief society (in fact only 3 women are mentioned by name, Sariah, the harlot Isabel and Abish). The list could go on.

I also remember a song called The Seer which used to be sung at Joseph Smith memorial firesides. What a pompous song. I thought that even as a TBM. Now after I've learned the truth about the so called Prophet I'd have to leave the room if I ever heard it again.

Who among the TBMs lurking here can produce one single serious sermon Horny Joe ever gave on the doctrinal substance contained in his marvelous work of friction er I mean fiction?







*crickets*

Indeed, Shummy; I have read he never preached from the BoM after he started getting revelations and the BoA, but I can't believe that (well, actually, I guess I can), although the Zion's Camp witnesses talk about him "describing Book of Mormon people" when they were finding Zelph-ish bones; OTOH, talking about Lamanites was probably common in early LDS circles.

The JoD, at least what I've read, includes very few BoM references. Brigham and friends quoted from the Bible and made up crap all the time, but it seems like they rarely used the BoM. It seems like many GA's today are doing the same...they steer clear of the BoM if possible.

Well my g-great grandfather quickly got caught up HJ's Lamanite fantasies.

Being fluent in several Prarie native tongues, he converted and then married my g-great grandmother on one of his missions.

Praise to the man who mongrelized my DNA!

the one doctrine that the BOM supposedly exclusively clarified over the bible, besides Jesus supposedly visiting America .....to reiterate his NT teachings, is the MORmON style saving of children who die with out baptism. What this really means is that MORmON Jesus despises people who are baptized but have not yet had their MORmON temple endowment.