My therapist doesn't seem to be grasping the psychological trauma I've endured as a Morg member. I get that s/he may not know all the ins and outs, or may not have much experience giving therapy to an ex cultist, but I feel like I'm repeatedly defending my position that it's a source of pain in my life, and s/he doesn't want to put the "cult"label on the Morg. The latest example, s/he said those people who committed suicide in South America, THAT'S a cult. I'm making no claims that TSCC is on the same level as that group, but it's cut from the same cloth. And I just want to move on with my life. Since I already have a rapport with this therapist, I don't know that I want to start over from scratch with a new one. I guess I'm just venting. You guys understand me.

Because most people don't have a clue how truly, awfully weird and creepy TSCC really is. My last therapist described the San Diego temple as a "fairy castle" and I wanted to vomit.

If you really want your therapist to understand what you've been through and what's really wrong with TSCC, maybe direct him or her to Richard Packham's site or even Mormonthink? Or even have him or her check out the biographies on this site.

Fairies take babies out of their cribs, steal and rape women, and notoriously work only for their own gain.

So yeah. Fairy castle. Apt, from a certain point of view.

Whatever you do though, don't let them read fake "Christian" "anti-Mormon" material. That stuff is made up bs.

Your therapist apparently doesn't understand what a cult is, or applies his/her preconcieved notions to your situation.

Have you checked this therapist's background?

Please request your therapist to do some research on "high-demand groups". This is the term that refers to Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, the LDS church and other religious and non-religious groups. A simple Google search should help educate your therapist.

Also, you might recommend the book, "Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control", by Luna Lindsey, to your therapist.

While having a good rapport with this person is very important, if s/he doesn't take you and your issues seriously, unfortunately, you may need to find another.

Please keep us posted.

I would add that I am surprised that your therapist would take a stance on whether or not TSCC is a cult. That sounds very odd to me. Therapists usually don't provide direct answers to such substantive issues.

Maybe ask them what characteristics they would use to determine if something was a cult.

Recovery Agency - I highly recommend as well.

Go to Steve Hassan's website on cults. Last time I looked there was a link to someone that had used his BITE model to analyze Mormonism. Result. Almost JW like. Still not reaching Scientology.

Again, I am surprised your therapist took a position. Maybe ask them why they felt a need to.

One thing you might point out gently is that some people can be prone to pass judgment on something without realizing that they don't have enough information.

Like the actual experience of living Mormonism vs. the PR/Missionary pap.

For example, ask her what she thinks is meant by this statement:

"When the brethren have spoken the debate is over."

Or

"Any man or woman can have a happy marriage if they are both committed to the gospel"


Her bias will be revealed if she isn't at least intrigued by these thoughts from Mormon culture.


Kathleen

It's even more than those statements. It's not being able to leave the group. You leave you're shunned, divorced, replaced with another partner who fulfills the group-determined role; you're excluded from family get togethers; you're innundated with group-sponsored messages on social media; you become a project for reactivation--and near-strangers are assigned to follow up and tell you how much they miss you to apply social pressure; near-strangers tell you how sad they are that your children won't be saved; you're written out of the will, you become dead to your own parents. It's beyond some aspirational "beliefs," its outright cruel, put-the-screws-to-the-person to keep them in. If they really disapprove, they'll refuse to make a cake for your wedding, even if they're total strangers in the business of making wedding cakes!

Just because they are a therapist doesn't mean they know

about what constitutes a cult. You don't need him/her

to know. You know and we know. Plus if you don't feel

comfortable with that person, go find someone else.


There are plenty of therapists in the world. My sister

is a psychologist and a very good one but she still

believes in the church... Go figure. They don't know

it all. Trust me.

It's your call, but a therapist who invalidates you isn't much of a therapist in my book.

Imagine the same thing happening in other scenarios.

"People in Somalia, now THAT's being raped. How bad could it have been, at least you knew the guy."

Or …

"Come on, grandfathers don't really have sex with their grandchildren ... " (there was a day when this was the prevailing attitude.)

A good therapist is there to help you deal with how you feel about what happened to you, not to invalidate you (which shuts down feelings), or to argue semantics with you. If it’s something that they have issues with themself (like being deeply religious), then that could give them a bias, and maybe they aren't going to be the best therapist for you. You might be actually pushing buttons in them.

Only you can decide if you're being helped or not by the sessions, but remember that some people are better at their jobs than others. They may lack enough understanding of your situation to be able to help you effectively. Monitor it and switch if you need to.

Point him/her to "How Cults Work". I hope this helps!!


http://www.howcultswork.com/

My therapist just stared in amazement when I described Mormonism. It's not really important what you call it. The harm is one reason you're there.

Just FYI ...

Many years ago I had reason to spend time working with a bunch of licensed therapists from all over the U.S. Shop talk was a part of the project (even tho' a couple of us weren't therapists). At one point they mentioned cult survivors in a certain context. At the time I didn't know anything about Mormonism, so I didn't catch what they did. But looking back, now I can see they were clearly directly referring to Mormonism without naming it - probably to avoid surprising any of us non-therapists.

My point is: those therapists knew that Mormonism was abusive and they expected each other to know about it. It was understood amongst them. (Now I get it.)

I once had a therapist that told me I needed to go back to Mormonism to find out once and for all it it was what I needed. This was just before the internet came out.

Obviously that wasn't great advice. I did go back. For a long time. My husband and children went with me.

We're all out now, but I can't help but wonder just how much damage it did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 11:05PM by madalice.

You're telling your therapist that you are in significant pain, and they are telling you it didn't really happen. Temple ceremonies? Necromancy? Tithing in exchange for salvation? Underwear checks and worthiness interviews? They are clueless, "Mormonism is like that silly musical, happy missionaries, happy families..."

My therapist in Newport Beach said, "What you've told me is the equivalent of a plane crash with dead bodies strewn about, and you're disconnected, like a reporter..." That is acknowledging pain/need for sorting things out...

Find someone else. You shouldn't waste time in expensive therapy trying to convince your therapist you should be there. Best wishes on your path. =)

Agreed. If showing her the pre-1990 pantomimes for her the death oath's (penalties) does not garner some self-confirming reaction that such things are OK in religious organizations then that would be quite telling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2015 09:45AM by mannaz.

I recently showed these to my therapist when I was trying to figure out how such crazy Mormon practices that I now saw had seemed normal to be before. I don't think s/he heard of those before and it was the first time I saw a hint of an 'OMG' expression cross their face.

There's no way that s/he can say that Mormonism isn't a cult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnW0rkDnJ8c



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2015 12:35AM by dydimus.

My therapist is a psychiatrist, who came highly recommended by some doctor friends of mine, and he has held prominent positions in the state and at the university.

I suppose most therapists try to remain neutral, but mine has been quite outspoken, when he has needed to be. He's treating me for PTSD, caused by extreme abuse, neglect and torture in my childhood, and also for pain management.

Last session, he began talking first--something that he's never done before. He told me that he watched "Going Clear," and how similar it was to the Mormon cult. He said it helped him understand more of what I've been through, and am going through with the shunning, and the looming baptism of some of my grandchildren, etc. He felt I was justified in not wanting anything to do with Mormons. He absolved me of any guilt, there, which my Mormon relatives and Mormon former friends are always trying to impose on me.

He mentioned the woman at the end of the program, who devoted her whole life to Scientology, before finding out the truth. When she left the cult, her daughter and grandchild refused to speak to her again. This lady was very sad, and said that there was nothing she could do, and that maybe someday they would come to their senses, on their own.

I asked my therapist about how, back in the Seventies, therapists would "de-program" people who were trapped in the most extreme cults. Could people be psychologically "un-brainwashed"? He said not. He said the "interventions" happened only with children and teens who were under the legal age, and often nothing worked.

I said that--even though I'm dealing with my PTSD quite well--I'm having a hard time letting the Mormons get away with all their lies and manipulations. He asked me, "Is there anything going on RIGHT NOW, that needs to be dealt with, legally?" He knew all about my past abuse, and the children's abuse, and how the statute of limitations had run out, in one case, and in another, my child did not want to go through all the trauma of prosecuting, and in yet another, it was their word against my children's and my word. The Mormons do get away with a lot of crimes!

My psychiatrist asked me, "Is there anything going on right now, that needs legal addressing? Is there anyone that you feel should be arrested? Is there something bad going on right now that you have the power to stop?"

I said, "Not right now. The abusers are long gone, and the Mormons are out of our lives."

He said that maybe I could let it go, and I quickly asked, "Do you mean that I should turn a blind eye, like everyone seems to be doing, and just let Mormons go ahead and steal from me again, lie to me again, and harm my family?"

He said, "No. You should absolutely continue to watch out for all those things, and continue to protect your family against criminals, just as you always have. Just let the rest of it go. It's life. There are bad and good people in the world. You have no control over that."

I asked him if he ever wanted to shout out the truth to his patients, whenever he could see them making really bad decisions, and he said, "It is not my business to tell people what to believe and what not to believe." It stuck me, that I want to be like this amazing man. I could see that the same rules that set me free from the evil cult of Mormonism are the same rules that allow Mormons to be Mormons.

After the session, I sat in the car in the parking lot, and thought long and hard about what he had said. Maybe the timing was right, maybe I was pretty much recovered, but it was like a switch went on in my head! My vigilante mindset and my self-righteousness seemed to drain away, and sweet relief, love, and acceptance filled my heart.

Sorry for this long, long story--now to the point with YOU

In order for me to be cured of my phobia of Mormons and Mormon abuse, my therapist needed to:

Acknowledge that the Mormon abuse really happened.

Say out loud that the beatings, rape, theft, etc. were real, horrible, punishable crimes committed against me.

Admit straight-out that Mormonism is a cult.

Understand why leaving Mormonism made my life better in every way. (I told him this.)

Admit that my rights as a woman and as head of my household were taken away from me by the Mormons.

Support me in any action I have to take in coping with REAL cult-related problems.


YOU must get another therapist, who validates you!

You are paying the therapist, yet you use the valuable time talking about the Mormons, trying to convince your therapist that your experiences are REAL. It's not all in your head. Mormonism is a horrible trap, and it breeds dysfunctional families, and you need support in finding your way to sanity. Your therapist is not helping you!

There are plenty of qualified therapists out there. In shopping for a therapist, you can ask if they have had ex-cult-members as patients before.

Corrections: My psychiatrist said that there's no quick "de-programming" session. Mormons can recover, but it's not all that simple, most of the time.

I regret not prosecuting all of the abusers! I did sue one Mormon family member, and recovered about half the money he stole from our family and me. I divorced the temple-husband who beat me, and had a restraining order on him for years.

Dear 'Breeze'. I know you're not the OP but I wanted to first tell you how affected and sad I am to hear what you've gone through. While each of our past horrors is different I want to say that I also found, and continue to try to process, how issues around leaving the cult have in many was been more difficult to figure out how to deal with than the sudden and horrible loss of my oldest son early last year. While I have learned bear the loss of my son - such horrors never go away - I continue to find myself revisiting issues having to do with being in the cult for so long as well as how to excise it from my life without blowing my relationships with my family up. So here I am, living through the loss of a child, yet the cult pokes its head up more. Less acute than grieving. But more frequent. And now I see how it has and will likely harm my other children. Oh 'Breeze', I feel pain reading your story. I am so glad you've been able to find a therapist that has been able to help you. Mine has also helped me. For me leaving the church has left me more content and accepting of my life. I take more joy out of being a husband a husband and father. For the first time in my life I can accept complements a thank you instead of a 'yes but ...' I like myself more.

OP. I also go into this detail to add a voice, as I hedged on in my earlier comment, that I also now think you need to find a different therapist if he/she cannot bring themselves to do the homework necessary to validate what you are going through.

Here are some links that might help you converse with your present therapist or select another one that can help you. There is very little research or guidance out there for them to draw on and what there is is not completely 'on-point'. I am an academic myself and have a pretty good lay knowledge of psychology and asked my therapist for some further on how to treat people like myself and their children.

Working with adolescents and religion
Walker, D. F., & Hathaway, W. L. (2013). Spiritual interventions in child and adolescent psychotherapy. Washington, DC, US: American Psychological Association. doi:10.1037/13947-000

Craft of working with patients from different religious backgrounds
http://www.academia.edu/1116078/The_ethical_challenge_of_working_with_spiritual_difference_An_interpretative_phenomenological_analysis_of_practitioners_accounts_Joanna_Jackson_and_Adrian_Coyle

I’ll weigh in again and say that it’s not a matter of educating your therapist about Mormonism and cults, or about testing them to gauge a response to a real whopper Mormonism example. It’s about your therapist’s skill level. It’s about the point that a therapist is there to get you to open up and talk about your issues by being a compassionate listener. A good therapist will do this by using validation techniques like ex-sis’s therapist used with his airplane statement; and avoid invalidating counter statements like your therapist threw out. They'll acknowledge that they've heard you and that something happened … that’s actually what facilitates the healing.

Even if you’re just discussing being traumatized over stubbing your big toe, they shouldn’t be having any personal opinions other than just using validating statements (like ex-sis’s example, and Breeze’s examples) in order to get you to trust them enough to dig into the root of any issues you may withhold while you subconsciously determined if it’s safe enough to share completely with them. Having someone hear you and acknowledge you is where most of the healing happens (like Breeze mentioned), and that works best when you trust and respect them.

For example, when people have deep shame about things that they might potentially be embarrassed about sharing, invalidating them during earlier conversations will cause them to clam up later and never share those deep dark issues, because they won’t trust the therapist enough to do that anymore. Invalidating someone can (will) also actually instill more shame. Validating them, on the other hand, regardless of the therapist’s personal opinion on the subject, gets them to open up and releases that confusion, trauma, and shame. But your therapist isn’t even doing this, they’re invalidating you instead.

The fact that your therapist doesn’t display this sort of skill and sensitivity, regardless of their personal feelings or understanding about the exact nature of the cult experience, makes me question their competence as a qualified therapist (Breeze’s therapist even learned things about Mormonism later on, but was still able to do his job earlier on because he had the skills). Your therapist appears to have already broken your trust and confidence a little bit already, so how do they expect to move forward with any healing now?

A good therapist doesn’t have to necessarily know exactly what it’s like to go through the experiences their patients have been through. They will use techniques to get around their lack of understanding, and can still get the job done. So, don’t give your power away and automatically trust someone just because they have an authoritative job and have hung a therapist’s sign on their door. Honestly, I’d consider trying out a different person. Not everyone that has a job has it because they’re good at it. And for something like therapy, you want someone who’s really good at it. You don’t want someone who’s just going to go ya, ya, ya, blaa, blaa, blaa .. and then just write you a pharmaceutical prescription. There are people out there who are good at this and know what they're doing.

Who knows, maybe your therapist has family members who are Mormons and needs to be in denial about Mormonism. Therapists are human too, although a good one would keep that separate, or at least have the ethics to refer you to someone else if that were the case.

Seriously, you need a better therapist.

I will again weigh in with 'torturednevermo' (btw, your post suggest insight into your pseudonym ;-) as I did 'breeze'.

Everything 'torturednevero' says I second and third and you should take it to heart. As you should 'breezes' comments. Reread them many times.

My therapist also 'boned up' more on Mormonism and cults some more even though it was a year and a half at least before she even admitted that s/he had treated at least one person who was Mormon before (s/he gave no other information so I don't know what for). And s/he would not offer this until I was clearly 'completely gone' in that I'd never go back. And this much only because the church was creating a 'clear and present danger' to the mental health of one of my kids and I felt I need to right away tell my teenagers therapist and psychologist that my teenager could bring up Mormonism with the family and her parents heads would not explode (I had not yet pulled all the way out in my attendance). I needed to know that my assessment of the situation was rational before doing that. I knew by then that a good therapist would be reluctant to encourage strategies in a patient, particularly a teenager, that might really blow up in their face as bringing up the issues of guilt and shame from the church with TBM parents could well do.

By then I had already walked in for an appointment and told s/he "I'm in a damn cult. My family is in a damn cult. I understand what this means. Now what the hell do I do." I had to reach that point on my own.

Get another therapist.

Re talking with Therapist.

In my comment above I indicated that I felt compelled to tell my teenagers therapists that the 'church was on the table' for them in helping my teen come up with strategies that would include talking with parents. This is tricky as there is confidentiality. You also don't want to sound like your "hair is on fire" etc. Here is how I navigated that.

Called and said I needed to talk with them about my teen and it was urgent (and they were working the crisis as well).

Planned out call a short and appropriate message as all things cult invoke a bit of emotion. I told them.

I want you to know that the matters related to religious belief are on the table as you work out strategies with [my teen].

My DW and I are not in the same place. I am no longer a believer and my DW is. But she as I are not the same page in putting the needs of our teen above anything related to religious belief.

My truth is that Mormonism is a 'high-demand' organization, that it is a cult or at the least 'cultish'. I am also in therapy and this is one of the issues I am dealing with. If it would help I will put in place permission for you to communicate with her.

I will do whatever is necessary to support my teen and anything that is brought up would be listened to, respected, and validated.

That is pretty much the some of it. Made no attempt to convince them that Mormonism is a cult. Again, my only objective was to provide information so that they would have a better understanding of how much 'maneuvering room' they had in guiding our teen if there was a need for us to be approached by them (my teen) about matters related religion or anything that might fall into areas of shame or guilt for 'sinning' of any sort.

Some time later I did get a simple "thank for that information' from one, it was very helpful to know that". My teen has brought up various items since. My teens and I no longer feel a need to attend nor do we.

Finally, I never ask my teen anything to do with there therapy other than a 'how are things going with so and so' and the only answer I expect, and usually get, is they're going OK. Allowing privacy and not intervening is crucial - unless safety is an issue.

Well, it is kind of mind boggling, that LD$ Inc pulls a Bernie Madoff every year , and gets away with it, year after year after year, Taking large sums of money from people and giving NOTHING of any real value in return. But then again, that proves that MORmONISM IS a cult, not that it is not a cult.


When any organization meets the objective criteria for being a cult, and that criteria is very well established, then that organization IS a cult.

You need a specialist therapist trained in cult awareness.

Is that possible?

It seems counterproductive to spend valuable time trying to educate your therapist.

I have little patience with those who say every church and organization is a cult or those who say a church is not a cult unless it's murdering members daily.

As I was "losing faith" my ex asked me to go with her to the bishop assigned therapist that she was seeing. I knew he was LDS but was willing to keep the marriage balanced and together.

I wanted him to be clear why I was there and asked specifically if he had experience or had studied the issues that couples go through when one spouse loses belief in the system both spouses were brought up in.


The therapist refused to answer the question and said he didn't see what that had to do with anything. Red flags went up.

I asked again in case he wasn't clear. Now he started asking me why I wanted to know this. I replied that it was the root cause of why I was sitting in his office. He then basically said "OK fine I've studied the subject" in a condescending and dismissive manner, the way that you know another human has just lied to you and conveyed that he had lied to you.

So I thought OK, for the ex I still hang in there.

Long story short it went downhill fast and I left the room in disgust before ten minutes were up.

If your therapist is not up on the root cause of the issues then you are robbing and fooling yourself if you continue.

Take the time to find one that is knowledgeable about mormonism and in no way choose a highly recommended therapist that won't deal in reality in their personal life such as LDS or JW or what not. A therapist that thinks and teaches their children that Satan and his minions are real are not qualified to help others get their minds right.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2015 10:03AM by AmIDarkNow?.

Your therapist doesn't think it's a cult or your therapist doesn't think that it's been a source of pain in your life?

The thearpist may very well agree with it's a cult but maybe thnks it'd be beneficial for you to consider why it is you are calling it a cult, what might you be using it to cover for?

Your therapist doesn't understand what a cult is. Most people make that mistake, thinking it isn't a cult unless you wear weird robes or live in a compound or commit mass suicide. But any mind control group is a cult.

More importantly, however, your therapist is dismissing your feelings and your perceptions, about something that really bothers you. You should be learning how to work through your feelings - not that what you feel isn't important or real. Time to find someone new - and I'd tell your therapist exactly why you are leaving and how they are mistaken about the nature of cults.

Now I understand why these random 'no text' posts happen.